Author Topic: Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure  (Read 4076629 times)

Lord Voltermore

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Re: Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure
« Reply #915 on: July 05, 2025, 09:53:57 AM »
This is the first case I have heard of this fault actually causing a crash.  :o

 The faulty item is called a brake "simulator" .  My understanding of its function  is that when slowing down   Ev's and Hybrids often utilise more 'regenerative' braking , and  therefore need to use less actual brakes for the expected  rate of slowing.  But at other times , eg if the battery is already fully charged , the brakes will need to contribute more to the retardation.   
I believe the brake 'simulator'  automatically compensates  for this by 'simulating' the same 'feel' on the brake pedal for the expected rate of slowing, regardless of how its being done.   

Its never happened to me, but  I accept that if the simulator suddenly failed  the brake pedal  and rate of braking may suddenly feel different , but the brakes  should still work.   For a long time Honda UK  argued that a mandatory  DVSA recall wasnt necessary because the brakes will still work , with warning lights that attention is needed .   

I will repeat my opinion on this matter.  I dont criticise Honda for there being a fault.  No car is perfect and other manufacturers also  have major safety recalls. Most recently Citroen and Nissan.    But my opinion of Hondas  customer care attitude and reluctance to accept liability  did take a serious  hit. 
 But then again I  only hear about  when Nissan, Citroen, Ford et al   finally make their safety recalls public  ,But they too might have previously delayed, and suppressed the problem  or upset their customers.   So any change of brand loyalty could be out of the frying pan into the fire  .
« Last Edit: July 05, 2025, 10:13:24 AM by Lord Voltermore »
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pauly58

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Re: Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure
« Reply #916 on: July 05, 2025, 11:20:09 AM »
No surprise to hear of your unfortunate crash, it's been coming. I heard of a failure in rush hour traffic but obviously low speed. Honda's claim that it was safe to drive was dangerous rubbish ; what testing was ever done to check safe breaking from different speeds : answer, none.

When our's failed it was the erratic brake pedal feel, first one position then another, absolutely not safe to drive, I had to warn the AA driver to be careful parking it. Anyway, it's gone now & we'll never darken Honda's door again, my son has had less trouble with his 2010 Civic.

Lincolnshire Rambler

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Re: Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure
« Reply #917 on: July 05, 2025, 02:08:01 PM »
It is sad we have heard of the brake simulator failing causing a crash ! I think honda stating the failure of the brake pedal simulator will still allow the car to stop is incredibly stupid and ignorant! Any failure mode be it when your are braking gently or do a full on emergency stop is hugely disconcerting .As panic sets in who would try the handbrake as a last resort? Most people would be trying to steer away from a collision. Honda should state the loss of service brake performance is 60% (or whatever it is ). Lets put that into a car simulator and see how normal jazz drivers react under different brake simulator failure modes . Those statements from honda are absolutely NOT from any technical or engineering dept but sadly some pseudo legal PR / marketting dept who frankly shouldnt even be employed in the local circus !!

Lord Voltermore

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Re: Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure
« Reply #918 on: July 05, 2025, 03:33:25 PM »
Those statements from honda are absolutely NOT from any technical or engineering dept but sadly some pseudo legal PR / marketting dept who frankly shouldnt even be employed in the local circus !!
Sadly also partly aided by 'clowns' in Government and DVSA  with their policy that a recall is not mandatory if a failure manifests itself as warning lights . PR types and bean counters at Honda europe/uk probably seized on this  as an excuse to downplay the problem  long after  Hondas Asian markets were doing recalls. 
But the reality is any unexpected  change in the behaviour of brakes has the potential for a crash, even if its only slight ,and the brakes still sort of work. Honda Europe/UK should have acted much sooner, and especially  immediately accepted  liability for actual failures without question, or payment.    The logistics of parts and workshop availability for recalling all cars  might justify a  bit of delay if the statistical  likelihood of failures, and chances of crashes  is sufficiently low. Or they have identified that certain production dates etc are at less risk than others . 

IIRC Citroen  recently put an immediate  DO NOT DRIVE  recall  on certain models  due to a fatal crash in France (I think) where the airbag did not deploy.  (A Takata airbag  I think )  There may  have been previous cases  that were not fatal.     Contrast this with the Takata recall that affected numerous makes of car  in the  2000's.  The recall had been in place for  about 2 years before Toyota finally replaced the  airbag on my 2007  Yaris. Had I been  in danger for 2 years ? , or was my increased danger statistically acceptable to Toyota?  , or by then were they just replacing them to improve PR and perhaps punish Takata. (so they wouldnt dare make faulty airbags again until at least 2025   :-\  )   
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RichardA

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Re: Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure
« Reply #919 on: July 06, 2025, 11:04:16 AM »
IIRC Citroen  recently put an immediate  DO NOT DRIVE  recall  on certain models  due to a fatal crash in France (I think) where the airbag did not deploy.  (A Takata airbag  I think )  There may  have been previous cases  that were not fatal.     Contrast this with the Takata recall that affected numerous makes of car  in the  2000's.  The recall had been in place for  about 2 years before Toyota finally replaced the  airbag on my 2007  Yaris. Had I been  in danger for 2 years ? , or was my increased danger statistically acceptable to Toyota?  , or by then were they just replacing them to improve PR and perhaps punish Takata. (so they wouldnt dare make faulty airbags again until at least 2025   :-\  )   

The airbag deployed but metal fragments from the airbag killed the driver, the exact same problem that led to recalls various makes almost a decade ago. PSA Peugeot-Citroen were told by Takata their vehicles were unaffected.

RichardA

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Re: Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure
« Reply #920 on: July 06, 2025, 11:11:24 AM »
I had a letter from Honda identifying my vehicle (HONDA JAZZ) and stating that there was a brake operating simulator fault and called this a ' product  update', which posed NO safety implications whatsoever.
 I received the letter just days before a very bad accident,caused by complete brake failure. 
The car is a write off.   Two Injuries, two damage vehicles and no warning whatsoever, This should have been a recall, DO NOT DRIVE  - RECALL NOTICE. 
I can't tell you how terrifying it is to be sitting in the drivers seat, helplessly standing on a unresponsive brake pedal as the car, seemingly with a trajectory of it's own, hurtles towards the rear of a very solid Bin Wagon!!
The Insurance paid out, but do not seem interested whatsoever in pursuing HONDA, who are the real culprits .
I have reported the incident to the DVSA, who are investigating.  I know I am now in a very long queue for justice, but does anyone know of a JOINT CIVIL ACTION? 
I have now bought a Yaris and seem to have got a better car entirely

Sorry to hear of your accident and I hope you are now OK.

Whilst the vast majority of reports of this problem appear when the car is first started after being parked up, it was only a matter of time before something happen when driving.

Lord Voltermore

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Re: Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure
« Reply #921 on: July 06, 2025, 12:22:17 PM »
This thread has had over 3.72 million views !  :o  Take note Honda executives. :P  Dont mess with your  reputation and customer goodwill  to impress your bosses /shareholders that you have saved a few bucks.  >:( 

I hadnt realised the citroen recall was due to 'shrapnel'    .Well done  Citroen for taking no further risks .

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Kremmen

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Re: Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure
« Reply #922 on: July 06, 2025, 01:03:18 PM »
A high proportion of those views will be Google bots and the like sweeping data
Let's be careful out there !

Lord Voltermore

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Re: Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure
« Reply #923 on: July 06, 2025, 01:50:03 PM »
 Even so 3.7 million views must equate to a few lost  Jazz sales.

These same bots may be why when I do a google search the result  occasionally  includes something I wrote myself.   :-[ GIGO  , garbage in, garbage out   ;D 
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embee

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Re: Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure
« Reply #924 on: July 07, 2025, 09:59:45 AM »
Indeed,  never believe anything you read on  t'interweb,  especially if you wrote it yourself.   :P

Lord Voltermore

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Re: Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure
« Reply #925 on: July 07, 2025, 10:14:24 AM »
Nah, the clever little botties obviously recognise quality info when they see it   :P
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aphybrid

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Re: Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure
« Reply #926 on: July 07, 2025, 03:28:03 PM »
The reported crash does NOT seem to fit with others experience.

Maybe some other contributory factor?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2025, 06:29:06 PM by aphybrid »

chicksee

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Re: Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure
« Reply #927 on: July 07, 2025, 04:12:58 PM »
That’s the first one I’ve read that happened whilst moving, mine only happened when stationary.
Scary stuff if this is reported again.

Nicksey

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Re: Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure
« Reply #928 on: July 07, 2025, 08:52:58 PM »
The reported crash does NOT seem to fit with others experience.

Maybe some other contributory factor?

Well, only with the failures reported on this forum.
How many VIN No. affected Jazz owners are there that aren't on this forum?
Quite a lot I imagine.

aphybrid

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Re: Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure
« Reply #929 on: July 08, 2025, 07:46:44 AM »
The reported crash does NOT seem to fit with others experience.

Maybe some other contributory factor?

Well, only with the failures reported on this forum.
How many VIN No. affected Jazz owners are there that aren't on this forum?
Quite a lot I imagine.

278 people on forum have given the car colour, maybe/maybe not all members but a reasonable number to give a reflection of failure rate in the general population - maybe someone can count number of failures and if car moving or static?

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