Handling the Unexpected

[richardfrost]

My Jazz is a mk2, so not so heavy. Weight is not the issue though, Honda just need to supply a more substantial jack, perhaps one from an early CRV of Legend?

Don't think there is much of a problem with EV weight.
My Mk4 is only 11% heavier than my previous Mk3, maybe 1 extra, tubby passenger

Jazz is hybrid. Compare the Kia Niro petrol 1490 kg and Niro EV 2230 kg. The EV version is 50% heavier than the petrol version. 740 kg extra weight due to the battery pack - so not surprising extreme stress on structure if vehicle is lifted by one corner and jacking point itself would be problematic.

Whilst I agree with your point in general, you have compared the kerb weight of the hybrid Kia Niro with the gross weight of the higher powered full EV (1490 vs 2230). A fairer comparison of the kerb weights is 1490 vs 1812. So 322kg heavier for the larger battery pack, and the lack of an engine. Still heavier, but not by the amount you imply. But even the hybrid has a modest battery which adds weight. So perhaps a better comparison would be between equally powered petrol and full EV versions of the same vehicle, if such a thing exists.

[richardfrost]

But was it an EV or regular engined car? The weight is going to be the problem.
Another point is that road deterioration is s factor of vehicle weight, UK roads are going to be a real mess as more and more heavy EV's take to the roads.

My Jazz is a mk2, so not so heavy. Weight is not the issue though, Honda just need to supply a more substantial jack, perhaps one from an early CRV of Legend?

Don't think there is much of a problem with EV weight.
My Mk4 is only 11% heavier than my previous Mk3, maybe 1 extra, tubby passenger

The (current) Mk4 is not an EV. People still seem to refer to them as that. An EV has no petrol engine.

Despite the weight saving of the engine, gear box, petrol tank, exhaust etc., EVs require an awful lot of batteries and on the whole are significantly heavier, around 25% more, than an equivalent ICE powered vehicle.

[culzean]

.........
Now EV manufacturers are using the weight of pure EV's as the excuse, as they say the car might twist if lifted on a jack. ..............

I really don't know where that comes from, I can't imagine any manufacturer saying that. My guess would be that it's a bar stool experts opinion.

Car body structure torsional stiffness has always been a major factor in the design, and I would suggest that every new model exceeds the stiffness of the preceding one. It's a fundamental of crash performance and of refinement. Modern design tools (CAD) and manufacturing methods and high strength materials/joining technology etc allow optimised structures to be produced.
If you could twist a modern car by jacking at one corner it would not survive on the streets. Gone are the days of making sure the hatchback was shut on your BL Metro before jacking it up because you couldn't shut it afterwards.

Agree 100%, after working a lot in 'body in white' ( body structures up to the paint stage ) and sub-assemblies for many years - the vehicle bodies are plenty rigid enough to stand lifting on one corner. As you rightly say car bodies are in the forefront of better materials, some of them were a real pain to weld though

[Karoq]

.........
Now EV manufacturers are using the weight of pure EV's as the excuse, as they say the car might twist if lifted on a jack. ..............

I really don't know where that comes from, I can't imagine any manufacturer saying that. My guess would be that it's a bar stool experts opinion.

Car body structure torsional stiffness has always been a major factor in the design, and I would suggest that every new model exceeds the stiffness of the preceding one. It's a fundamental of crash performance and of refinement. Modern design tools (CAD) and manufacturing methods and high strength materials/joining technology etc allow optimised structures to be produced.
If you could twist a modern car by jacking at one corner it would not survive on the streets. Gone are the days of making sure the hatchback was shut on your BL Metro before jacking it up because you couldn't shut it afterwards.

I agree, but consider the load on a small jacking point and the strength of the jack together with the  physical strength needed to lift the car even with low gearing.  Any slight misalignment could have catastrophic consequences.

That is the whole point. I obviously did not get my point across . Apologies. High point loading could bend the car at the point of lift, due to the excessive weight of a. FULL EV I doubt the smaller battery of a hybrid would have much effect .

[embee]

..... but consider the load on a small jacking point and the strength of the jack together with the  physical strength needed to lift the car even with low gearing.  Any slight misalignment could have catastrophic consequences.

It's a shame the design engineers don't think of these things when they do the calculations.

[nowster]

When designing pavement layers for a carriageway only commercial vehicles are used in the assessment. EV passenger vehicles are not heavy enough to damage a road.

It's interesting that the wear goes up as the fourth power of the axle load.

[sparky Paul]

I don't see why the weight of an EV should preclude jacking at one corner. There are ICE vehicles that come equipped with a spare and a jack which have kerb weights heavier than EVs with a substantial battery pack, such as the Tesla S, or Model X.

My diesel estate car is only just under two tonnes, even that is heavier than many small to medium EVs.

[sparky Paul]

@sparkyPaul- I agree, I would sooner have done the wheel change and just be on my way. That said, it was a sunny day on a rural B road. A different scenario had it been a dark wet evening on an A road. The spare and jack give the option of a change.

Exactly. You would use your own discretion. If I need to change a wheel outside my house, or on a carpark, or in a layby, I want to be free to do so. To argue that cars should not be supplied with a spare or a jack because using them could be dangerous, is plainly ridiculous.

The omission of a spare wheel and tools is primarily a weight saving measure. The fact that the manufacturer can save a few quid, and the dealer sell you a new can of snot every time it expires, is a bonus for them.

[Kremmen]

Can of expensive snot. If I use mine or it expires I'd opt for Tyre Weld at a third of the price unless anyone knows different.

[sportse]

Can of expensive snot. If I use mine or it expires I'd opt for Tyre Weld at a third of the price unless anyone knows different.

On the hire cars I use in Spain, they actually remove all the manufacturers puncture repair kits and replace them with a can of Spanish tyre weld.

It’s much easier to use as well.

[charles yates]

im with you Westy i guess its in my blood but as soon as i got my wifes jazz back in 2012 i bought a 2nd hand full size spare it already had a scizzor jack and wrench as well as the jungle juice ,luckly only had to use 0nce ,maybe we will need to change for a new tyre in a few years in case it rots but thats another story.I also did the same to my 2018 jazz when purchased last year but i did get an alloy to match ,well i thought it matched until it arrived and i unwrapped it the 2018 has a slightly different groove pattern behind but i dont think i will worry about it ,just hope i dont need to use it ,but if it enables me to get on my way without having to wait on the side of the road for an hour or more then im happy

[Saycol]

I started this thread by quoting from the Honda Owners Guide. Here is a photo of page 355 which shows the car has four jacking points. (I looked at my car and they are clearly visible). The picture also shows a scissor jack. Perhaps in some markets a jack is supplied?

Remembering that the Honda Jazz is a global product there will be significant variations in specification. In fact I believe in some markets the Mk 4 is sold with a conventional petrol engine. Maybe it even gets a spare wheel!

[Westy36]

From that photo, I reckon the jack from my MK2 would be just fine.

The jacking points on the mk2 are just double thickness seems to take the load. No slot or similar that some manufacturers use to aid stability.

I must admit, changing the wheel with the jack on a bit of slope at the start of my holiday was a bit precarious, but as ever, gave the car a bit of a nudge/shake to check security before removing the wheel. My lad had the spare ready, so the car was without wheel for <1min!

I note that this thread has yet to get back to when cars had starting handles to handle the unexpected! I've not used one in years, battery technology being so much better these days. 

[Jazzik]

I note that this thread has yet to get back to when cars had starting handles to handle the unexpected! I've not used one in years, battery technology being so much better these days. 

Like I haven't changed a wheel in over 10 years. No punctures... Maybe tires also so much better these days?

[guest4871]

Did cars have batteries in those days?

I really can't remember. Must be my age!