Author Topic: So maybe something is wrong after all :(  (Read 11948 times)

andruec

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So maybe something is wrong after all :(
« on: November 09, 2016, 04:16:59 PM »
Some of you may remember my previous posts on issues I had starting my Jazz. It seemed like I'd resolved the issue by giving the engine a couple of seconds settle down after an idle stop restart before switching it off for good. Unfortunately it's started playing up again despite my workaround. It often starts slowly after ignition before settling down at normal idle. It failed to start first time earlier this week.

Given the cold snap recently it suggests a problem of some kind to me. The only thing that still seems odd is that it failed to start first time in my garage in the morning when it was 11 degrees and presumably quite dry but seemed to have no problems in the evening after sitting in the company car park for 9 hours with temperatures around 7 degrees and damp in the air.

It's beginning to look like a trip to the dealer is needed :(

madasafish

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Re: So maybe something is wrong after all :(
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2016, 04:35:30 PM »
Sounds like a failed temperature sensor..

or a dirty MAF sensor..
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 04:41:04 PM by madasafish »

andruec

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Re: So maybe something is wrong after all :(
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2016, 05:00:59 PM »
I'll call the service department tomorrow. Annoying if it's a fault that's been there since I bought it but I suppose it's kept going for nine months so far give or take having to press the start button twice a few times.

andruec

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Re: So maybe something is wrong after all :(
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2016, 08:25:31 AM »
Booked in for next Friday. Most of the time it is still starting first press but I've noticed that in the last week or so it's run at low revs for a second before picking back up to proper idle. It actually did it yesterday evening which has finally prompted me to get it looked at. I don't mind it preventing me getting to work but not getting me home is right out :)

KentEx

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Re: So maybe something is wrong after all :(
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2016, 12:29:13 PM »
Here's another oddity concerning idle stop.

Recently I switched off my climate control and just run with normal heater on. Discovered after a few miles that the idle stop wasn't working, the instrument dial to the right of steering wheel displaying AC with diagonal line through it, not the normal A with arrow round it.
Everything else worked fine in auto mode, headlights, wipers, lane deviation etc.

So turned on auto climate control and hey presto idle stop works again. What's going on is idle stop linked to air conditioning/ climate control.

Any of you guys got any ideas, I'm totally baffled?

andruec

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Re: So maybe something is wrong after all :(
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2016, 04:24:16 PM »
Here's another oddity concerning idle stop.
I would tentatively guess it was down to fan speed. Perhaps the system decides that since it can't control fan speed any longer it'd better not use idle stop. Either that or was your fan running slower when control was handed back to the climate controller.

Anyway as regards the actual topic of the thread I suspect it's a problem with my fuel rail, fuel pump or the non-return valve. That seems to fit all my symptoms and explains why all else seems to run well. Apparently the system is supposed to keep a small amount of fuel under pressure in the rails at all times to ensure a good start. Various faults can cause it to leak back to the fuel tank (or worse case on the floor but I don't think that's an issue). It also explains why the fault mostly manifests in the morning despite being in a garage. That's when the most time has passed allowing more pressure to be lost. Maybe 9 hours in a car park is not normally enough time for the loss to be significant.

One test that I think I can do is to first switch on without the foot brake pressed. Then wait a second and complete startup. The first button press should run the fuel pump which will re-pressurise the rail. The second button press should be a normal start.

andruec

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Re: So maybe something is wrong after all :(
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2016, 02:47:03 PM »
My first test of the new 'strategy' and I may be on to something (again :-/ ). I pressed the start button twice without the brake pedal to switch ignition on. Waited a few seconds then pressed it again with the brake pedal pushed in. The engine started immediately and at the correct revs. It even sounded a little 'perky'.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 02:49:31 PM by andruec »

Paulwhitt20

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Re: So maybe something is wrong after all :(
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2016, 03:07:19 PM »
My wife does that, turns the ignition on and waits a bit then starts the engine. I think it is a throw back from when we were told to turn the ignition on for a few seconds so the ECU could learn the temperature etc and do its calculations to decide how much fuel to use etc. Before switching the engine on completely. 

culzean

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Re: So maybe something is wrong after all :(
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2016, 05:32:31 PM »
My wife does that, turns the ignition on and waits a bit then starts the engine. I think it is a throw back from when we were told to turn the ignition on for a few seconds so the ECU could learn the temperature etc and do its calculations to decide how much fuel to use etc. Before switching the engine on completely.

Sometimes a few seconds delay helps to let fuel pump build up pressure.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

andruec

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Re: So maybe something is wrong after all :(
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2016, 07:45:14 PM »
Well that's flummoxed me.

I thought it was temperature related and was worst in the morning. This morning she started and idled at 1,500 RPM immediately. Ah ha! I thought - warmer temperatures and she's happy again. QED. Fast forward to this evening at work and it's still relatively warm if a little wet. I press the button and she fires but stumbles along for a second or two at about 400 rpm before finally ramping up to 1,500 RPM.

So it isn't purely the temperature. It's obviously a little more complicated than that.

I've been looking online for explanations out of curiousity (I'm no mechanic) but nothing quite seems to match. I've stopped trying to let the ignition run for a few seconds before firing because after that one time it didn't seem to make much difference. Failing MAF sensor almost makes sense except that aside from hard starting she runs just fine.

I just hope the dealer can figure it out :-/

andruec

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Re: So maybe something is wrong after all :(
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2016, 04:12:18 PM »
Well don't that beat all? (as the Yanks say).

As I expected the dealer wasn't able to replicate the problem. In fact despite it being a cold morning she started perfectly for me as well  ::). Nor are there any error codes. Everything looks good.

So I chatted with the technician over the phone for ten minutes sympathising with him (as a computer programmer I've had my share of this kind of thing). Then I left the house got into the Jazz they'd lent me, pressed the start button and..

..splutter, splutter, mumble, mumble, mumble, vroom.

It damn' near stalled on me. Exactly what my Jazz sometimes does. So anyway the techies at the dealership are going to check that car out because they are hopeful that a record of the last start will be on the system. Then at least they can send it to Honda for comment.

So the only common factors so far seem to be:

* When it's not Summer.
* When it's me starting the car (my magnetic personality perhaps?).
* Mostly (but not always) in the morning.

W-T-F ?

Anyway I keep forgetting to record a video of it (or else it plays nice when I do) so I'll leave you with this example (different car altogether) because these are my symptoms:

http://www.s2000.com/forums/engine-tech-drivetrain/19723-cold-start-low-rpm-then-normal.html

This also rules out anything to do with the CVT since the courtesy car was a manual. Gawd it felt archaic. Pushing a pedal and moving a stupid stick around at every junction. There should be a law against it :)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 04:25:37 PM by andruec »

andruec

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Re: So maybe something is wrong after all :(
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2016, 10:13:47 AM »
Yesterday was frosty. Car claimed 10 degrees in garage when I started it. Started first time at slightly low RPM but soon picked up.
Today was very frosty. Car claimed 10 degrees in garage when I started it. Stuttered and stalled out on first attempt. Second attempt it fired right up at correct rpm.

So it seems like there's no ryhme or reason :-/

Skyrider

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Re: So maybe something is wrong after all :(
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2016, 05:41:16 PM »
Do you keep your feet well clear of the accelerator pedal when both stopping and starting the engine? There are people who feel the need to switch off from high revs and also rev the engine before the oil gets around the engine.

andruec

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Re: So maybe something is wrong after all :(
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2016, 07:57:05 PM »
Yup, no feet anywhere other than pressing the brake pedal when starting. And I've never felt the need to rev the engine.

All in all it's odd. Originally I thought it was a fault with my car but the fact the courtesy car did it implies a more general issue. Except that here we are in a cold snap and no-one else is reporting it. This morning it started first time albeit with slightly low revs for the first second or so. This evening it fired right up with no issue.

So overnight in an insulated but unheated garage (give or take a gas boiler) at ten degrees it's a bit unhappy and maybe stalls.
All day in an office car park with temperatures struggling above five degrees it's happy.

And..why is it so infrequent? I was thinking about it this morning and I think it's only failed to start half a dozen times, a dozen at the most in the nine months I've owned it. It seems bothered by poor weather and faultless during the halcyon days of summer.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 08:00:09 PM by andruec »

John Ratsey

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Re: So maybe something is wrong after all :(
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2016, 08:44:43 PM »
Did the courtesy car have a night in the garage? If so, perhaps try leaving the car outside the garage and see if it is happier.

If the garage is poorly ventilated (and most are to keep them a little warmer) then perhaps there's a bit of damp upsetting something. 

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