Author Topic: Tyre Pressure warnings....danger of crying wolf too often  (Read 42841 times)

mikebore

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 567
  • Country: england
  • My Honda: 2016 1.3 Mk 3 SE CVT and wife's 2008 1.4 Mk 1 SE CVT
Re: Tyre Pressure warnings....danger of crying wolf too often
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2016, 04:03:14 PM »
It doesn't work like that. The calibration process re-sets the starting values for each wheel, and only changes from the initial values will trigger the alerts.
Presumably it allows for a gradual change over time as the tyre wears. Although that could be problematic. Front to back wear differences might not matter but front wheels can often wear differently on each side if the driver is regularly negotiating a lot of roundabouts - eg; lives in Milton Keynes.

I would expect that system design assumes that the tyres are checked, topped up and TWS calibrated quite frequently so that wear effects are therefore taken care of by normal maintenance.

culzean

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5991
  • Country: england
Re: Tyre Pressure warnings....danger of crying wolf too often
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2016, 05:47:20 PM »

During the learning period after calibration (you have to drive a certain distance at at above a certain speed) will tune the system to try to prevent false alarms. I have only had my system trigger once on the Jazz MK1 (after I had new tyres fitted to front axle)  and a couple of times on the Civic (same cause,  a slow caused by corrosion on the rim where original Honda factory wheel balancing weight clip had been hammered on the rim under tyre bead - damaging the paint and causing electrolytic corrosion between steel clip and aluminium with salt water in winter (another reason for having steel rims in winter) - most responsible tyre fitters use adhesive weights).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire-pressure_monitoring_system
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Dayjo

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 320
  • Country: gb
  • My Honda: 2018. EX Navi CVT.
Re: Tyre Pressure warnings....danger of crying wolf too often
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2016, 07:57:20 PM »
My 2015 Mk2, has TPMS. With no apparent means of, "resetting".

As I understand it. If all 4 wheels are rotating at the same pace as one another all is well.

David.
Drive them 'til the roads wear out.......

mikebore

  • Topic Starter
  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 567
  • Country: england
  • My Honda: 2016 1.3 Mk 3 SE CVT and wife's 2008 1.4 Mk 1 SE CVT
Re: Tyre Pressure warnings....danger of crying wolf too often
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2016, 10:12:49 PM »
My 2015 Mk2, has TPMS. With no apparent means of, "resetting".

As I understand it. If all 4 wheels are rotating at the same pace as one another all is well.

Maybe if there no reset/calibration the tolerance before an alert is larger.

Dayjo

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 320
  • Country: gb
  • My Honda: 2018. EX Navi CVT.
Re: Tyre Pressure warnings....danger of crying wolf too often
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2016, 10:17:33 PM »
My 2015 Mk2, has TPMS. With no apparent means of, "resetting".

As I understand it. If all 4 wheels are rotating at the same pace as one another all is well.

Maybe if there no reset/calibration the tolerance before an alert is larger.

Dunno about that......

As I wrote, on p1. It flashed up, after a mile with the new tyre, 5 psi underinflated.
David.
Drive them 'til the roads wear out.......

culzean

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5991
  • Country: england
Re: Tyre Pressure warnings....danger of crying wolf too often
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2016, 09:58:41 AM »
I don't even need to reset my TPMS when I go from summer to winter tyres.  Unless your system is direct pressure measurement (did Honda ever fit this to UK Jazz ? even for one model year ? ) there has got to be a way for recalibration  - on USA Honda models they get a convenient button on the dash to press for a couple of seconds until TPMS symbol flashes and then they can drive a couple of miles to reset.

Logically I think indirect (ABS sensor based) TPMS can be less sensitive on low profile tyres due to the fact there will be less change in rolling radius as pressure drops.

I have read that direct TPMS (pressure sensors in wheels) has proved to be troublesome and expensive though.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

madasafish

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1122
  • Country: gb
  • My Honda: 1.4 ES CVT -2012
Re: Tyre Pressure warnings....danger of crying wolf too often
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2016, 03:14:57 PM »


I have read that direct TPMS (pressure sensors in wheels) has proved to be troublesome and expensive though.

Renault ones:  http://tinyurl.com/gulnras  (what can you expect of the French ? They have form on this)

Lexus ones: http://tinyurl.com/hkcvgp2


14hondas

  • Guest
Re: Tyre Pressure warnings....danger of crying wolf too often
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2016, 05:35:16 PM »
yet again this is the latest Jazz - it DOES NOT HAVE TPMS!!

It has DWS!!

culzean

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5991
  • Country: england
Re: Tyre Pressure warnings....danger of crying wolf too often
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2016, 06:41:00 PM »
yet again this is the latest Jazz - it DOES NOT HAVE TPMS!!

It has DWS!!

I suspect DWS Deflation Warning System is just another name for TPMS,  it may not measure pressure directly using pressure sensors in valves (which is why deflation rather than pressure is used)  instead it uses ABS brake sensor pulses to detect when a wheel speeds up because tyre pressure is dropping and 'effective rolling radius ' of wheel is reduced,  in effect the wheel has to rotate faster as its radius gets less to keep up with the other 'full size wheels'.

Indirect TPMS is a generic term for when a system uses ABS pulses,  direct TPMS is when pressure sensors are fitted to directly monitor pressure.  It is the same with VSA,  different car makers call this different names (ESP and ESC are just a couple) - Honda just chose to use DWS this time for their 'TPMS' system.

BTW is using two exclamation marks a sign of exasperation with this forum !!  tch tch
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 06:50:23 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

14hondas

  • Guest
Re: Tyre Pressure warnings....danger of crying wolf too often
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2016, 07:18:09 PM »
Yes it is frustrating when a discussion on a subject is based on misinformation and despite others indication earlier the differences between the systems it continues. If a sensible discussion is to be had on any subject the basic facts have to be recognised
Both systems are designed to warn of potential tyre pressure condition but are distinctly different in operation.
From authorised Honda source:-

"TPMS is a system used briefly through the previous shape jazz and Accord only 2014/2015 chassis. The current Jazz does have a tyre deflation warning system as per EU law on all new cars, however the system on the current Jazz is DWS (Deflation Warning System).  The DWS system is standard on all the new models and works in conjunction with the VSA system. When one of the wheels increases rotation ahead of the other 3, it assumes that the rolling circumference has reduced, ergo the tyre has deflated and will trigger the alarm. TPMS is an independent system that measures the individual tyre pressures of each wheel and constantly reports to itís receiver unit on every rotation, however, as I stated, the current Jazz does not come with TPMS it has DWS which has no additional components, ie sensor valves etc.

culzean

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5991
  • Country: england
Re: Tyre Pressure warnings....danger of crying wolf too often
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2016, 08:18:03 PM »
The abs (or as you call it VSA vehicle stability assist which itself uses ABS pulses and an accelerometer and a wheel angle sensor ) based system has been used by Honda for many years and you need to understand that when forum posters talk about  TPMS that is the system they are referring to. I am not sure if Jazz has ever been fitted with pressure sensors and as I said in a previous post, it would have only been for a short time (2015 model ).

TPMS is a generic term covering both the direct dTPMS (pressure sensors used ) and indirect iTPMS (ABS based).  DWS is maybe a term Honda and some companies use when they don't use pressure sensors (instead of more clumsy but probably technically correct iTPMS). Legislation would refer to TPMS as a 'catch all' phrase to cover all methods of detecting when a tyre is losing pressure.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 09:36:02 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

jazzster

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 49
  • Country: gb
  • My Honda: 2015 1.4 Vtec EX CVT
Re: Tyre Pressure warnings....danger of crying wolf too often
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2016, 08:26:55 PM »
my 15 plate Mk2 Ex has the wheel sensors but no reset in menu, so wheels will be a problem if they get damaged or if wanted to put winter tyres on steel wheels, much prefer the abs ones less problems with changing tyres. My would need reset with honda dealer.

John Ratsey

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1528
  • Country: gb
  • My Honda: 2016 Blue HR-V SE CVT
Re: Tyre Pressure warnings....danger of crying wolf too often
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2016, 08:56:03 PM »
my 15 plate Mk2 Ex has the wheel sensors but no reset in menu, so wheels will be a problem if they get damaged or if wanted to put winter tyres on steel wheels, much prefer the abs ones less problems with changing tyres. My would need reset with honda dealer.
You don't need to do a reset / calibration if there are individual wheel pressure sensors as on the late Mk 2 Jazz (assuming that they are designed to not trigger false alarms over the likely pressure range. It's the DWS as on the Mk 3 which needs the calibration after changing tyres / adjusting pressures so it can figure out the baseline condition (eg identifying a slightly worn tyre which inherently rotates faster).

I looked in my HR-V manual as I don't have a Jazz any more but it uses exactly the same DWS. I found the only mention of calibrating the DWS is in the section about the multi-function computer and there is no mention in the text relating to adjusting tyre pressures - a careless omission by Honda. Hence my earlier suggestion about having a sticker mentioning calibration next to the label giving the pressures.

culzean

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5991
  • Country: england
Re: Tyre Pressure warnings....danger of crying wolf too often
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2016, 09:39:22 PM »
Problem with pressure sensors is that every wheel needs one including spare, if you had winter wheels the ecu would need the new sensors programmed so that it recognises them that's when it gets expensive and more complicated - is that what jazzster meant by dealer reset ?
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

mikebore

  • Topic Starter
  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 567
  • Country: england
  • My Honda: 2016 1.3 Mk 3 SE CVT and wife's 2008 1.4 Mk 1 SE CVT
Re: Tyre Pressure warnings....danger of crying wolf too often
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2016, 12:59:44 PM »
Does anyone know where to get an accurate tyre pressure gauge from?

I have four devices, two are part of compressors, and two are separate analogue dial type (not sliding rod). The range of pressures measured on the same tyre is 30-36 psi.

I wouldn't mind paying a bit over the odds for an accurate one.

Tags:
 

anything
Back to top