Cat C 2010 Honda Jazz I-VTEC SI 5 dr!

[Spencer69]

Hi to All, just joined to ask advice on above post title and hope of joining for a good few years, dependant!

I have the opportunity of purchasing from a trader above type Honda and after research and checks, the damage was caused/reported in 2011 (I know, within 1st 3 years). All cat c info is noted within advert for car and damage refers to slight dent in body as rear of vehicle and scuffed bumper. The asking price is less than half of what a 'undamaged' similar car would be and has very low mileage-less than 30k! From images of car from all angles, all bodywork looks very straight, bar reported bodywork probs.

Have also checked all MOTs since September 2013. Nothing is noted of any major failures, examples are Under-trays fitted obscuring some underside components in Sept 2014 and latest being offside front Windscreen wiper does not clear the windscreen effectively 25" (8.2.2), in Sept 2015.

Car currently has valid MOT-he only advisories from last year are nearside front Brake pad(s) wearing thin (3.5.1g)
offside front Brake pad(s) wearing thin (3.5.1g).

Other information I can add is car has had 2 prev keepers and average annual mileage appears to be less than 5000 miles per year from new!

My question is obviously, would readers go ahead with purchase of vehicle?

All advice and opinions welcomed and am viewing car tomorrow (Wednesday) afternoon.

Many thanks.

[Ozzie]

Hi and welcome.

Personally I wouldn't touch a Cat C car.

Cat C is a car that has had enough damage to make it beyond being financially viable to repair after a crash. I have had a few prangs as a driving instructor, one of them was in a 5 month old Corsa. I slowed for a queue of statioary traffic and a folowing car hit me at around 30mph. The impact was such that it broke the back of the drivers seat, and I managed to buckle the steering wheel.

THE CAR WAS NOT WRITTEN OFF, a £13k car was a viable repair with everything behind the steering wheel being replaced, the repair bill was £8,000, evidently it was close to being written off, but it was repaired. Now think about how badly a newish car needs to be damaged to be a Cat C . . . . and do you want to put your family in it??

The usual knock in the back, new tailgate, rear lenses and floor to the boot etc, is around £2000 of damage, nowhere near a write-off. A Cat C on a new car is serious damage !

[guest6138]

I have had plenty of cat c and d cars, its not always a bad thing, and the category doesnt always mean that the damage is bad its just the cost to the insurance i.e a red corsa will be written off for a rear bumper, a bumper replacement is cheap but the new red paint wont match the existing faded red bodywork so they decide to write off as cheaper than a customer demanding a full respray!

check where the damage was and check for a repair, look at all the panels to the light reflection if you can see and sanding makes (very fine parallel lines) where its been repaired walk away!! if its repaired well you will not see any signs

[Spencer69]

Many thanks to Ozzie and Gmedwards for your replies and considerations.

Ozzie, I thought about the issue you raise but then thought why would somebody still drive the car, albeit low annual mileage for following 4 years after 'incident/accident', and from details of MOTs, no major issues raised-I appreciate MOTs are only worthy of so much value.

gmedwards, again many thanks. The points you raise have also been covered in other forums, such as AA/RAC. As not viewed car yet, did nect best thing and enlarged the images of the car as far as able and looked for those tell tale signs, such as misaligned joints and the bodywork damage, which is still visible and from research, would appear to be the damage referred to in 2011.

Is it not possible, that original owner, who had incident/accident, after making insurance claim, resulted in car written off, they then purchased car but decided not to bother having bodywork seen to then sold to 2nd owner, as cat c, who has now p/xed for another vehicle?

Any furhter responses again, extremely welcomed.

[guest1372]

Probably worth looking at the cars on the CoPart website or Trents to see what damage makes it a Cat B, C or D.

New models can be written off if parts availability is poor, certainly if there is not a known UK lead time for all items, rather than pay storage and hire car fees while parts are hopefully on a boat from Japan or wherever. An independent repairer of course can use salvage (stolen!) parts, and cheaper methods than an insurers repairer would.  A 2008-15 GE Jazz should have enough age in 2011 for a UK supply of OEM parts from Swindon. 

I think the advertised mileage of any Cat C/D car is irrelevant as everything apart from the chassis may have come off a much higher mileage vehicle, plus the temptation to 'adjust' the mileage in this case is high.

Any perimeter panel damage would not be a problem to repair & unlikely to be noticeable, so looking at the body on a forecourt is unlikely to yield many clues. Probably better to get an official vehicle inspection report (AA/RAC/specialists) to satisfy yourself (and future purchasers) where an expert may spot floorpan or mechanical issues.  Rear dent & bumper scuff sound like damage done since original repair.

It's been owned and used for a few years now, so probably less chance it's a stolen car masquerading as a repaired one.
--
TG

Category C Repairable salvage. Usually applies to vehicles with significant damage and where the cost of repairs exceeds the book value. It can be sold for repair but must have VIC(Vehicle Identity Check) inspection before returning to the road. V5 documents are returned to DVLA and recorded as category C vehicles. You can re-apply for registration on the original identity once the VIC inspection has been done. VIC inspection and re-registration removes the Category C classification, but evidence it was at one time Category C remains on the vehicle's record at the DVLA and so will appear on a vehicle data check.

Category D Repairable salvage. Minimal damage, probably not structural, but insurer does not want to repair, even though it might be economic to do so. Often stolen and recovered after claim has been paid. Or it maybe a vehicle where parts are difficult to obtain so a quick repair is unlikely. Does not need VIC inspection to return to road. Notification will appear in your vehicle history check

26 Oct 2015 - Vehicle Identity Checks now abolished.

Images: CatB 335 mile Civic / CatD 218 mile Jazz

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[Spencer69]

Again, many thanks for the points for further consideration.

Although I trust the content of the advert (and tbh the trade seller being directly connected to car sales opposite where we live bearing in mind we see what they on daily basis and looked at their reviews) I may have been 'drawn in' by thinking that the damage to the bodywork that can be seen in car images and explained in advert, is the damage that was the reason for the original 'write off'. for completeness advert & trader make mention that mileage is genuine (26k).

However, even though this could be the case, have to ask as pointed out, within 1st year of car purchase (2010) and knock to vehicle causing damage as shown (even now 5 years on) would it really cost the price of new body parts and bumper to write off vehicle?

Maybe not and some structural damage may have occured, which has been repaired to a degree allowing 5 years further motoring relatively troublefree. Again, will know more once viewed/driven this afternoon and will post further

What I do not want to happen is to let this opportunity slip  away as the price (£2,500) is at upper end of budget & different from current car (03 corsa C-which we have had since 2011).

Replies appreciated.

[Spencer69]

I should have also added that without all definite info from trader regarding cat c damage, and service history etc and for any reason I am not happy/confident then I will be walking away and not taken in, even though I have already been quoted and guaranteed insurance cover-an extra £100 on current fully comp cover.

Final question for moment-do all models of 2010 Honda Jazz i vtec Si 5 dr have front fog lights? This vehicle doesn't and wondering if this is a clue as to where damage may have occured!

Apologise for all questions and queries, but attempting to arm myself as fully as possible beforehand!

As ever, MT's.

[guest5589]

Have a look at this thread: http://hondakarma.com/threads/honda-jazz-hybrid-the-milkfloat-killed.13189/live

The Jazz Hybrid was written off Cat C with 14k miles and after 2 months it was back on sale with just 5,300 miles on it. If you look at the damage on the Page 1 of the thread you will see it was a big impact on both front and back of  the car yet the term Cat C doesn't truly reflect  that.

I would rather buy a higher mileage car with no damage/category. mind you there are cars out there with unrecorded damage repaired so really get an AA/RAC inspection done regardless.

[Ozzie]

I would rather buy a higher mileage car with no damage/category. mind you there are cars out there with unrecorded damage repaired so really get an AA/RAC inspection done regardless.

Me too, especially with proven service history.

I was told that once the repair bill reaches 60% of the value of the car, its beyond financial repair and is written off. So a 6 year old car worth £5000 can be written off with £3000 of damage, but a 1 year old car worth £15000 can still be repairable with £9000 of damage, which is again why I would stay well away from it.

[Ozzie]

I think I have just found it on the internet, is it priced at £2495, that in itself sounds like a bargain for a 60 reg Jazz with 25k on the clock.
I would be concerned about the fact that it failed two mots at 12k miles, passed the 3rd one. Then passed at 16k, failed again at 21k, passed second time despite having different size tyres, front and rear.
Theres too many things not right for me. 

[guest334]

Just ask yourself what the trader paid for this Jazz ... then walk away.
There are 000's of good used Jazz in UK without history C/D etc stolen recovered.

[culzean]

I think I have just found it on the internet, is it priced at £2495, that in itself sounds like a bargain for a 60 reg Jazz with 25k on the clock.
I would be concerned about the fact that it failed two mots at 12k miles, passed the 3rd one. Then passed at 16k, failed again at 21k, passed second time despite having different size tyres, front and rear.
Theres too many things not right for me. 

to fail an MOT AT 12K takes some doing,  and 12K in 3 years only 4K a year,  another example of low mileage motors sometimes not being a bargain

[Spencer69]

Hi, again many thanks for your replies. Just back from viewing. The current damage to bodywork actually looks less worse than in images.

Looking around the car didn't reveal any horrors. Bodywork under carpets, boot and sills area all is very straight, no creases and dry. All bodywork panels fit as should and not out of alignment. Even colour all round (including under bonnet/back seats/boot and spare wheel well) no paint problems, bubbling/rust. All tyres even tread. All doors/boot and bonnet sound solid when shutting.

Turned car over, quiet, no ticks, clicks, or blue smoke etc. No warning indication/service light came on. All electrics checked, windows, mirrors (fold in), heating, fans, a/c, radio, wipers, indicators etc. All seating felt firm, supportive, adjustments all ok as was steering rake/telescope. Rear seats fold as should and again firm.   

Offered test drive & car reversed out of sales compound by seller-couldn't hear any problems with car whilst it was being reversed. Test drove car from then (seller with us as traed plates needed & my partner in back). Journey through 30/40/50 mph areas and motorway-45/50 minutes. Noticed car had gear select indicator which I found had to use due to lack of noise from engine telling me when to change gear.

Gear selection and clutch didn't reveal anything further and was easy to drive. On m/way at 70 mph didn't notice any wind noise. At all times accelerated and braked better than expected, handbrake fine also. All indicators, wipers, radio, instrument panel etc no problems. No strange noises whilst test driving, no shudder/shake from steering, even when braking (it was actually quite a nice place to be and quite impressed).

Log book/docs all in order and notes cat c so has had VIC by DVLA/VOSA. Previous owner (2nd) was a lady who had car for 4 years before p/x at honda dealership, which is where seller acquires some of his vehicle-they trade mainly in higher end cars/4x4's. In addition, person dealing with us, known to us by reputation and had no problem trusting him.

Have to say, I do not have any bad vibes at all and quietly confident about the vehicle. They would happily put car through new MOT, as it happens as at MOT/service station I have been using for past 5 years, with current vehicle and agreed to accept current car in p/x.

After 2 hours as above, what would you do?

 

[guest1372]

At £2500 you shouldn't lose money if you were to sell in 6 months time for some reason, but then again you might keep this car for 10 yrs with no problems. MOT failures do sound like skimping on basics, but responsible ownership should avoid that.  Only thing I would like to be certain of is airbags rather than empty spaces where they used to be.  You seem to be asking us to talk you out of buying this car, but you are still keen, none of us can really advise you with any authority.
--
TG

[Spencer69]

HI TG, cheers. My last post to attempting to be as objective as possible, although I am biased and have nothing but good vibes about the car. I think I will be going ahead and purchase-agreed in principle, £2200. TBH, the car drives and apart from little body damage, if not told it was cat c, there would be nothing to indicate so!

Is the main problem with cat c cars, and the reason for the 'myths' being how they might react differently if they were involved in car crash?

Again, whatever the reason for the 'write off', in 2011, it had vehicle inspection check over by VOSA, who were obviously happy enough with the damage repair to allow it back on the road. Again, this was 4 years ago and has been driven by lady driver, who averaged 5k miles per year.

Will let you know any further results. TY.