Author Topic: P0221 & P0121? Engine light and erratic idle  (Read 8598 times)

mack62

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P0221 & P0121? Engine light and erratic idle
« on: December 23, 2015, 08:15:03 PM »
I just recently bought a 2004 Jazz 1.4 from a private sale.  Took it for a test drive and everything was good and it is in good nick considering the age (paid my cash).  On the drive home, the engine suddenly came on and the engine would no longer rev above 3000 RPM.  I plugged an analyser into it this morning and it gives me a P0221 (Throttle Position Sensor), P0121 (Pedal Position Sensor and P0638 (Throttle Actuator control).  The revs are jumping from about 800 to 2000 without touching the pedal. 

I reset the ECU and the P0221 code comes back nearly immediately.  What I notice is that it now will only rev to 1800.  I look at the freeze frame data and this is the rpm that the engine was at when the engine light was triggered. 

I looked at the throttle body and it is very clean like someone has cleaned it.  I was surprised to see an accelerator pedal switch as I thought these early Jazz's had the accelerator cable directly to the throttle body... not drive by wire  I had my wife operated the accelerator while I watched the butterfly and it works but a bit erratic. 

Any thoughts?   Honda wants 72 just to look at it and I expect they will just want to replace the most expensive bits.  I have read a fair number of posts from people that replace the TB and then later found a broken wire.  I looked and couldn't see the wire to the TB.  Do I have to remove all of the air filter housing to find it?  Has anyone actually replaced the TB and had that solve the problem?  I am so upset to have been cheated like this but I like the car.

legend-ary

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Re: P0221 & P0121? Engine light and erratic idle
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2015, 11:34:37 PM »
Hey Mack, sorry to hear about your car. It is a shame that the owner hid this fault as he clearly knew about it, why else was the throttle body so clean. But as many of us know there is little on no comeback when buying privately.

Your car is 2004 which is when the first major update arrived with revised suspension etc so I am guessing that is why you have the electronic throttle and not the cable type.

I don't think going to dealership is the most cost effective way forward. best bet is to look for local breakers and see if you can find parts you need. or get one off eBay .. currently both types are listed for around 30-36. Assuming you are ok with DIY I feel this will give you a good start. Or you can goto a local independent that you trust which will save you from throwing parts at the car and seeing what sticks.

I have never come across this problem before so can't say what is it exactly but check this forum and there are some other places you can check. Hint: Jazz is known as FIT elsewhere.

mack62

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Re: P0221 & P0121? Engine light and erratic idle
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2015, 09:32:57 AM »
Thanks for the reply.  My problem is that I don't have a local that I trust  ::)  I usually drive a motorbike (an older BMW) and long ago I started doing my own work as too often things would come back worse than they went in.  Motorbikes are lovely to work on too with a lot less skinned knuckles.  ;)

I can't believe the prices these Honda guys are charging.  The local one here (Cambridge) quoted me over 150 pounds for an oil change and inspection.  The same sort of service from Honda in Canada cost me less than 30 pounds 4 years ago. 

I need a proper manual first I guess.  Is the Haynes the best choice?  From what I can see, it seems I need the Bosch throttle body as it looks like the Denso one is made for the direct throttle cable attachment. 

I am hoping that it is really just a broken wire.  Has anyone here ever had the accelerator pedal sensor fail?  It looks like a bit of a faff to remove it but I am thinking to start with it and clean it with contact cleaner.


TG

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Re: P0221 & P0121? Engine light and erratic idle
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2015, 10:00:26 AM »
I should be able to get reclaim parts sometime in January, if you can hang on, or you can ask the eBay recyclers for the exact parts you need. There's lots of throttle bodies listed and a few pedal sensors (about 40 ea), small and cheap enough to be worth swapping over. Wiring nearest the connectors is probably most vulnerable but I would not expect that to be at fault.

EDIT: Seems yellow/green in conduit (not sure where) is rather tight and can break at one of the branches where the tension causes the most strain.
Quote
I decided to look at the car once again. Now
i looked the wires that goes to the tb. Started stripping down the tapes and omfg! This wire
((yellow/green)was cut wehre the tb wires meets the bigger bunch from the ecu. This wire didnt go to the ecu. It went down to this other wirebunch under plastic cover. The corner was almost 180 degrees so no wonder the cable was cut. Fixed the wire and everything is fine now.
Engine wire harness http://www.partsbase.org/parts/honda-32110pwee01/
Throttle body http://www.partsbase.org/honda/jazz-2004-ke-5-doors-1-4-se-5mt-engine-e-1-1-throttle-body-2/
KE = UK & Eire models

Seems that Denso & Bosch make these bodies, and yours is likely to be Bosch. I would not change brand so that the ECU is dealing with like for like if you do swap it over.

I would certainly make my feelings clear to the seller as it seems they knowingly sold you a faulty car, they may feel guilty enough to at least help with info if not cash.
It's probably worth getting as much background information as possible. What parts have they had replaced or swapped if any? What steps to fix it did they take?
--
TG

PS My throttle body still looks clean, but maybe that's just me.

http://www.bba-reman.com/forums/Topic120618.aspx
http://honda-tech.com/honda-fit-73/honda-jazz-fit-2005-p0638-p0122-3186613/
« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 11:06:24 AM by TG »

legend-ary

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Re: P0221 & P0121? Engine light and erratic idle
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2015, 10:10:50 AM »
A few members have got Haynes but it is missing some stuff that annoyed them. Sorry don't remember exact thing..
http://www.hondafitjazz.com/manual.htm

this link is quite useful and might help you get started.

olduser1

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Re: P0221 & P0121? Engine light and erratic idle
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2015, 10:28:18 AM »
Sorry about the issues you are having, once you've cleared them all should be well.
See if you can find a garage that deals with Honda/Toyota ask around other local owners
Best online free manual for your model here>
http://www.hondafitjazz.com/manual.html

mack62

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Re: P0221 & P0121? Engine light and erratic idle
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2015, 03:43:47 PM »
Thanks everyone. 

The links are really helpful.  I have an update.  Running out of time, I decided to take it to the Honda dealer and explained all.  They took a look and said that the Throttle Body isn't just clean but new.  They took it apart and found the broken wire exactly where predicted. 

100 pounds later I have a perfectly running Jazz.  The perfect Christmas gift.   :)




TG

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Re: P0221 & P0121? Engine light and erratic idle
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2015, 07:20:55 PM »
100 fix from a Honda dealer sounds like the best news possible.
Hope your Jazz is trouble free from now on.
New throttle bodies are 500, so must have been painful for the previous owner when it did not fix the issue.
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TG

legend-ary

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Re: P0221 & P0121? Engine light and erratic idle
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2015, 10:17:36 PM »
Thanks everyone. 

The links are really helpful.  I have an update.  Running out of time, I decided to take it to the Honda dealer and explained all.  They took a look and said that the Throttle Body isn't just clean but new.  They took it apart and found the broken wire exactly where predicted. 

100 pounds later I have a perfectly running Jazz.  The perfect Christmas gift.   :)

That is fantastic! Did you by any chance take a picture of the said wire? or post the location for other members so if someone comes across this issue, it will help them narrow down the problem.

mack62

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Re: P0221 & P0121? Engine light and erratic idle
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2015, 11:04:36 PM »
Unfortunately I didn't get a picture but was told that it was this green-yellow one as reported by other people.  I really appreciate the other people that took the time to post their stories that led me to the solution. 

There were no wireless key fobs that came with the car.  I assume I can buy these from the dealer and have them programmed?  Are there any other options?

Eddie Honda

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Re: P0221 & P0121? Engine light and erratic idle
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2015, 03:36:37 AM »
Good to hear you are sorted on that fault.

With regards to the wireless key fobs, it may be better to start a new thread.

TG

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Re: P0221 & P0121? Engine light and erratic idle
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2015, 01:39:20 PM »
There were no wireless key fobs that came with the car.  I assume I can buy these from the dealer and have them programmed?
Fobs on this model are the separate two button version, although the three button version still works. Dealer = expensive, but these do appear on eBay and breakers. If pairing is like other brands, then I'd hope it is a specific sequence of ignition turns & button presses.
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TG

mack62

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Re: P0221 & P0121? Engine light and erratic idle
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2015, 01:53:31 PM »
Thanks.  I can't really tell if this car has the transceiver.  With the original documentation were two RF certificates from Omron, I was thinking that one was for the engine immobilizer and the other may have been for the remote.  I have seen the Honda fobs on eBay but haven't found the pairing instructions yet. 

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