Author Topic: Warranty  (Read 8051 times)

guest5079

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Warranty
« on: November 14, 2014, 04:26:41 PM »
When I bought our 2010 Jazz 1.4 VTEC I shift just three weeks ago, it came with a two year warranty, Reading some of the members experiences with warranties and Honda dealers I must admit to being a little alarmed. Two weeks ago, I had need to do some heavy braking. The weather was foul, spray causing almost total lack of visibility. I was on the inside lane of a dual carriageway following a car with considerable distance between, leaving the idiots to barrel down the O/S lane. The car in front suddenly braked, I also braked but the car didn't seem to want to stop. It did, the car in front could see the problem I could not. A BMW minus front in the way. I will say my driver training held me in good stead that day. Having bought the car from a Honda main dealer I perhaps foolishly had not scrutinized the  condition of the discs. When I did I was not impressed. I then got my local garage to put the Honda on the brake testing rolling road. All OK. He then looked at the discs. He held his counsel. That day, having to visit a sick relative some 55 miles away, called into a branch of the same dealer that supplied the car, nearby. Total lack of interest and obstructive. Boy was I worried. When I got home an E mail was sent to the supplier of the car, I was not rude but I didn't hold my punches. I was asked to take the Jazz for them to look at the brakes. On the way down, in a gale, a branch off a tree hit the bonnet, good omen or what?. However, I was met by the branch manager. They looked at the discs. All discs replaced new pads on the rear BUT I was told as the pads on the front had been replaced prior to my collecting the car, they had put those pads back on????? I have never heard of that being done before, still there you go. On the way home a 30 plus mile journey, I noticed I had 'feel' in the brakes, they were progressive in operation and they stopped the vehicle as one would expect. No snatching. bonus was the car was considerably quieter. Moral. If they don't play ball have a go, in my E mail I said, I suppose, when i have that first free service, you will tell me I need new discs and pads. Perhaps they were the magic words, I know not. I now have to sort out the dent in the bonnet. I understand the not interested branch is to receive a visit from the Boss!!!! Sorry to be long winded but Honda is quite interested in keeping it's reputation, so if you have a problem and they aren't interested just get your facts together and don't back down, after all a warranty is just what it says, a warranty against problems. It also begs the question, why was this work not done before. My thoughts. If the dealer had done the work before the car was sold, it was out of his margin. This way Honda pays. Another thought, the rolling road said the brakes were up to MOT standard and yet in practice the brakes were useless. I understand that several years back the government removed the 'condition of the discs' as a failure point from the MOT Here I experienced just how dangerous that could have been. I am hoping the Jazz will live up to it's reputation re reliability, I would prefer not to have any more 'problems' over warranty.

guest5040

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Re: Warranty
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2014, 05:03:18 PM »
Ok, lets play devil's advocate ( I am not being deliberately mean). You had wear and tear items replaced under warranty, wow that's a hell of a deal! When I bought my Jazz the front tyres had 3mm left (original Dunlop's), rears were fine. Yesterday I paid just over £200 for a pair of Michelin's. I wouldn't have gone back to the dealer and asked him to sort it out, as wear and tear items are my responsibility, not his. When my discs and pads need replacing, I will pay for them as that is part and parcel for owning a car. I am wondering if some of your problems had more to do with the inclement weather and the actual tyres on your vehicle with your first incident rather than the discs and pads which passed on the rolling road.

Eddie Honda

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Re: Warranty
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2014, 09:15:23 PM »
In fairness a car bought 3 weeks previous from a dealer is expected to be fit for purpose. Even if it is used.

Trading Standards put it better than I can: http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/advice/problemswithvehicles-sum6.cfm

I understand that several years back the government removed the 'condition of the discs' as a failure point from the MOT

Your understanding is partial on this point. For the May 2010 MOT Tester Manual revision, Section 3.5.h was re-worded. Here's the snippet from Matters of Testing, the in-house VOSA magazine explaining why:
Quote
Section 3.5h Brake discs and drums
The original wording ‘A brake disc or drum cracked, insecure, excessively pitted, scored or worn’ didn’t really make it clear how bad the cracking, pitting, etc. has to be before the disc or drum is rejected. There was also evidence that the original Reason for Rejection (RfR) was being misinterpreted, and too strict a standard was  sometimes being applied – many rejected discs were simply rusty, corroded or had a lip where they were worn and a simple clean up would have returned them to a serviceable condition. Remember, this is a visual inspection – the deciding factor could well be that the disc is in such poor condition that you refuse to carry out a performance test.

The RfR now reads ‘A brake disc or drum in such a condition that it is seriously weakened or insecure.’ This should make it much easier for testers to reach a decision.

The following are the current RfRs for brake discs:

3.5.1.(h) a brake disc or drum contaminated by brake fluid, oil or grease
3.5.1.(i) a brake disc or drum in such a condition that it is seriously weakened or insecure

So in short, whilst they moved the goalposts, they didn't remove the "condition of the discs" RfR and still inspect the discs (or drums).

PadiusGladius is fair to point out that the brakes on a car aren't the only things that contributes to stopping the vehicle. The condition of the dampers (shock absorbers), suspension, and tyres do their bit too. And even tyres with full 7 or 8mm tread will aquaplane if the speed/and or surface water conditions are just so.

Anyway, I'm glad you got sorted out in the end without too much messing around.

culzean

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Re: Warranty
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2014, 09:09:10 AM »
On a 4 year old car you may expect to replace some 'wearing' parts - I would class discs and pads as wearing parts and not covered by warranty (which is there to cover things that fail / break).  Do you expect the dealer to bring everything back to 'as new' condition before putting car up for sale?  I would not expect dealer to replace the exhaust for instance  - unless it was clearly broken and would not pass an MOT, and if the exhaust failed 3 weeks into your ownership I suppose that wouldn't be covered either - just tough luck.  How about if the battery fails the day after you drive the car off the forecourt ?

The brakes passed the rolling road test, so dealer was under no responsibility to replace them. Remember that an MOT is only a snapshot of the cars condition at that time.

Considering that say 30 years ago a 4 year old car could have serious rust and mechanical problems and need major work,  we don't know how lucky we are these days to have cars lasting 10 years + with no major problems. People are getting more and more demanding and some people nowadays do seem to think manufacturer is responsible for every little thing that goes wrong with a car (or any bit of equipment really) throughout its life,  we have had people with 7 or 8 year old Jazz claiming wheel bearings under warranty - and manufacturer will sometimes cover them, IMHO Honda are pretty good in that respect - if you think other cars don't have problems just look at their forums ???.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

guest5079

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Re: Warranty
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2014, 04:14:07 PM »
I can see that there are those that think I was pulling a fast one. I was not!  The car was only 3 weeks from purchase. The problem occurred within 10 days but living where we do, going back to the dealer would be a fair trip. Now, I appreciate that weather conditions were atrocious BUT one of the benefits of disc brakes is their ability to clear water quickly. I have driven an awful lot of vehicles at some very high speeds, fitted with discs and have never experienced the dead feeling I got from the brakes before they were replaced. The dealer should not have allowed the car out with the brakes in the condition they were, which he admitted, I do not have a micrometer but just by the feel there was quite a lip on the front discs NO not rust but caused by wear, so I would think the front discs were well on the way to minimum thickness. The rears were heavily scored and pitted. It might have been a while ago but I was an approved MOT tester and I have seen some pretty dodgy brakes in my time. I also had the privilege to have had pretty comprehensive driver  training. To the criticism that the brakes were consumables, well as it was said, so is the exhaust BUT if you read the blurb, Honda give a 5 yr warranty on that. The trading standards question was raised about fit for purpose. Here is the clincher, two days after the brakes were done I received an E mail from the Branch Manager hoping that the service I had received was acceptable and  apologized  for the inconvenience. Now to those that feel I was pulling a fast one NO I wasn't and I am vindicated by the E mail. Finally two points, if I had just ignored the dodgy brakes and complained say 2 months later yes I would agree, tough BUT I complained as soon as practicable and that's the difference. I would thank those that saw the point of the post and reserve my right to disagree with those that didn't. I am surprised about the critics as I was only pointing out that if a warranty is given and a problem arises you have a perfect right to speak to the dealer, who will say no pretty quickly if he thinks a fast one is being pulled. Just make sure of your facts and good luck

guest4871

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Re: Warranty
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2014, 11:39:52 AM »
Looks to me that everyone "dun rite" here. You were correct to report your concerns to the dealer. The dealer responded well. The dealer obviously realised that the car might not be of a fit and proper condition for sale (even accepting the fair wear and tear provisions others have mentioned. but e.g. 3mm on tyres is very normal). Perhaps the dealer should have checked the wear before, perhaps they did and misjudged the issue. Anyway, well done. Good outcome.

Rory

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Re: Warranty
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2014, 10:20:56 PM »
The dealer should not have allowed the car out with the brakes in the condition they were, which he admitted, I do not have a micrometer but just by the feel there was quite a lip on the front discs NO not rust but caused by wear, so I would think the front discs were well on the way to minimum thickness. The rears were heavily scored and pitted.

The front discs being worn with a lip still shouldn't affect the braking performance. "Dead" feeling brakes usually happens on cars a few yrs old which are gently driven so everything siezes up - hence it's especially difficult to understand what happened on your car if the pads were replaced.

The rears discs on this model are notorious for looking a mess - they do hardly any braking at all so don't clean up.  Honda replaced mine under warranty at 3yrs old when I had a bit of a moan about it.

culzean

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Re: Warranty
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2014, 06:42:05 PM »

The front discs being worn with a lip still shouldn't affect the braking performance. "Dead" feeling brakes usually happens on cars a few yrs old which are gently driven so everything siezes up - hence it's especially difficult to understand what happened on your car if the pads were replaced.

The rears discs on this model are notorious for looking a mess - they do hardly any braking at all so don't clean up.  Honda replaced mine under warranty at 3yrs old when I had a bit of a moan about it.


You are dead right that on cars driven too gently the discs can glaze and affect braking,  you need to slam the anchors on every so often to warm up discs and try to get rid of glazing.  OEM Honda pads are abrasive type so should in theory be more resistant to glazing the discs.  Rear discs and pads are a waste of time and on a car like the Jazz should really be drums and last 100K at least without replacing shoes, and never have to replace the drums, and better as a handbrake as well.

As I cover a lot of miles I have let my discs get below min thickness in the past with quite a lip and not seen braking affected.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

stiggysawdust

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Re: Warranty
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2014, 08:57:00 PM »
I can see that there are those that think I was pulling a fast one. I was not!  The car was only 3 weeks from purchase. The problem occurred within 10 days but living where we do, going back to the dealer would be a fair trip. Now, I appreciate that weather conditions were atrocious BUT one of the benefits of disc brakes is their ability to clear water quickly. I have driven an awful lot of vehicles at some very high speeds, fitted with discs and have never experienced the dead feeling I got from the brakes before they were replaced. The dealer should not have allowed the car out with the brakes in the condition they were, which he admitted, I do not have a micrometer but just by the feel there was quite a lip on the front discs NO not rust but caused by wear, so I would think the front discs were well on the way to minimum thickness. The rears were heavily scored and pitted. It might have been a while ago but I was an approved MOT tester and I have seen some pretty dodgy brakes in my time. I also had the privilege to have had pretty comprehensive driver  training. To the criticism that the brakes were consumables, well as it was said, so is the exhaust BUT if you read the blurb, Honda give a 5 yr warranty on that. The trading standards question was raised about fit for purpose. Here is the clincher, two days after the brakes were done I received an E mail from the Branch Manager hoping that the service I had received was acceptable and  apologized  for the inconvenience. Now to those that feel I was pulling a fast one NO I wasn't and I am vindicated by the E mail. Finally two points, if I had just ignored the dodgy brakes and complained say 2 months later yes I would agree, tough BUT I complained as soon as practicable and that's the difference. I would thank those that saw the point of the post and reserve my right to disagree with those that didn't. I am surprised about the critics as I was only pointing out that if a warranty is given and a problem arises you have a perfect right to speak to the dealer, who will say no pretty quickly if he thinks a fast one is being pulled. Just make sure of your facts and good luck


Well said auntyneddy
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Eddie Honda

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Re: Warranty
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2014, 11:49:55 PM »
Rear discs and pads are a waste of time and on a car like the Jazz should really be drums and last 100K at least without replacing shoes, and never have to replace the drums, and better as a handbrake as well.

Agreed and a waste of time on a lot of cars.

The only way to keep rear discs sweet is to carry three heavyweight passengers in the back and several bags of cement in the boot to give them a workout. ;D

guest5079

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Re: Warranty
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2014, 12:05:47 PM »
I am very grateful for the clarification from Eddie Honda, I was a MOT tester when brakes were done with a tapley meter and one could feel if the brakes pulled to one side. I understand 4 wheel drive vehicles are still done this way. I was only quoting that which I was told by my local garage, re the condition of the discs. With all the electronic wizzardry  nowadays I wonder if some brake faults are hidden. I had no idea that my little bit on warranty would bring such a reaction. The dead feeling in brakes is as so rightly put, caused by many factors but I do know when brakes aren't up to scratch. I did also report that the Honda main dealer was honest when they admitted the car should not have been sold as it was.  I did not write the conditions of the warranty. I do feel however, if something is warranted then going back to the dealer with a problem is no less than what the dealer is telling you  to do if a problem arises. The tyres on the Jazz according to the dealers report are 4mm front and 5 mm rear. There is no way, would I go back in x number of months and claim new tyres under warranty. Come on chaps, lets not get silly. After all the warranty is paid for in the purchase price, nothing is for nothing in this big world we live in. I am grateful for all the input, even if some seemed to have been written by a car dealer!!

Eddie Honda

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Re: Warranty
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2014, 05:56:21 PM »
I was a MOT tester when brakes were done with a tapley meter and one could feel if the brakes pulled to one side. I understand 4 wheel drive vehicles are still done this way.

Well as an ex-tester you'll know there are those than can and those that can't....

I'm not sure why an I-shift would merit getting out the Tapley. I don't even thing a RBT would kill a modern layout CVT, even though it's down in the manual not to RBT a vehicle with belt driven CVT transmission.

I was happy enough for the MOT to let a tester RBT a Volvo 300 CVT as it has a differential. I wouldn't let them do that to the driving wheels on a non-diff DAF though (although I had a tester stick the front end in of one before)


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