The infamous EGR valve problem (Honda Jazz 2002-2008)

[DV]

When I bought my new EGR valve from Honda dealer they asked my reg. no. only. On the old EGR valve I had F1 written (moulded in) on but on the new (upgraded) part I had F2.
Part no.: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/18635761/EGR/CIMG3236.JPG
New and old: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/18635761/EGR/CIMG3268.JPG.

[culzean]

Brian123

when the EGR valve gives trouble it is normally that it is just crudded up and sticks in open position - you probably don't need to buy a new part,  just free up the old one.  (get some carburettor cleaner from Halford and soak the inside of EGR, its a doddle to remove from car,  just one electrical plug and 2 bolts)  If you are careful in taking it off you may not need new gasket. 

EGR should only open at higher revs to let some of the exhaust gas back into the air intake (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) this cools the combustion down ans reduces nitrous oxide emissions. If the valve sticks open it is the same as having a leak in the intake manifold and that's what causes the jerkiness and bad performance low down.

There is loads of advice on this forum about cleaning up EGR valve interiors.  Just type EGR into search

[guest806]

Brian, give it a try yourself, many of us have done it.   I replaced the gasket at the same time, just to be on the safe side.

[guest806]

I have a haynes manual if you would like it for a resonable offer.

[guest3806]

Suffered problems now solved. Detailed below.

Car details: 2001 Jazz 1.4 SE Sport (UK) with 70,000miles
Symptoms: Low road speed and high engine load (eg 4th gear pulling up hill or rolling with slow traffic and starting to pull away in same gear when traffic speed picks up) the engine would hiccup/hesitate/misfire and it would shake through the car occasionally being quite a jolt the nose of the car would really dip.
Tried: New plugs, replacement coil packs, cleaning throttle body, testing TPS voltage (0.5v closed, 4.5v open)
Cure: Read Club Jazz forum, took off the EGR valve, banged it against my vice and cleaned with carb cleaner then refitted.

PROBLEM SOLVED!

The best part is now knowing what the problem was as there was no check light on the dash.

[madasafish]

The best part is now knowing what the problem was as there was no check light on the dash.

THAT is THE clue which points to an EGR valve issue  (or a sensor problem on some cars - often crank sensor).

It's really simple logic which defies many garages!

[guest3856]

I think I have the same EGR issue and I want to order a gasket (just in case) and will proceed with the CARB CLEANER.
Non-mechanic here, can you please make clear exactly what gasket i need to buy? There are many options, I have a guide price of £8.50 from a previous poster. Appreciated. Q

[dg]

just ask local honda dealer, part num: 18714-PWA-004, less then £10 for sure
http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection.php?block_01=17SAA01&block_02=E__0410&block_03=19959

[dg]

actually you may need to clean egr passage in egr plate(between air intake and engine) as well
in my case egr valve was fine, but while doing valve adjustment I cleaned up said passage and car ran much better afterwards
http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection.php?block_01=17SAA01&block_02=E__0300&block_03=19959
plate is #14
gaskets #15 and #11 might require replacement

[guest3203]

Thought I would mention my two penny worth! I had the infamous EGR fault and cured it by removal and cleaning, as many here have done - but here's the thing..... Around two years ago Honda said I needed a new battery, but being a mean Scot, I soldiered on until now as the car started fine. Very recently, though, I noticed a hesitation on start- up and decided enough was enough and bought a new (Bosch) battery for £38.95 off Ebay. Next day delivery, by the way!
This is what I discovered on replacement. The car immediately drove better. My light foot on the throttle did not make the car hiccup as it was wont to do again lately, (echoes of the EGR valve syndrome) which pleased me no end. And to cap it all the fuel consumption has improved significantly. So what's that about? Do we all need to make sure our batteries are up to scratch before we take the EGR valve apart? Worth a thought or two!

[chrisc]

That old battery must have had an internal short to be putting such a load on the electrics, even with the alternator spinning!   I think you caught it just in time.  If I heard my mechanic suggest a new battery but didn't buy one straight away, I would be sure to measure it with a meter fairly frequently thereafter.

I have had batteries in other equipment develop internal short-circuits to find the charger almost red-hot trying to charge the battery.

[guest3203]

Chris,
I always assumed that once a car had started the alternator generated enough electricity to provide the spark for ignition from then on. You are now telling me different. The starting of the car wasn't enough for me to be alarmed before i changed the battery; I am going to be travelling south to visit my son soon and thought I would change it to be on the safe side and not cause embarrassment. I always class myself as average and if I had neglected to change the battery when recommended then I'm sure there are lots of Jazz owners just like me who don't trust garages. Of course the Honda garage was going to charge £80+ pounds to change it, so I knew I could do it myself for less than half the cost and with little effort. (No Haynes manual re-setting was required and everything worked once the radio and clock were retuned). Thanks for the info. though, and I will have the voltmeter ready next time!

[culzean]

What happens with lead acid batteries is that over time and particularly in warmer climates the positive plates corrode (the negative ones do not) and when they corrode they get bigger, this can put pressure on the insulating separators and push through to cause a short.  When this happens the shorted cell voltage drops from 2 volts to to zero,  so you then have only 5 cells in series at around 2 volts each and only 10 volts at the terminals. 

The other common failure mode after long service is when one of the inter-cell welded connections breaks,  in this case there is now no continuity of connection in the battery and although you may see some voltage at the terminals with no load, as soon as you try to draw any current from the battery  the terminal voltage drops to zero because of the broken  / high resistance joint.

I am of the opinion that after 4 to 5 years (depending upon initial quality and alloy mix of the battery plates)   any lead acid automotive battery is firmly in the 'living on borrowed time' category,  and either of the above faults can happen at any time,  the battery with a shorted cell may still start your car,  but the one with the broken connection will leave you stranded.  Even a good quality battery that is replaced after 5 years will still have only cost you about 30 pence a week.

Low mileage also kills batteries, because if they are kept below about 50% charge level for any length of time they normally 'sulphate up' and a white coating appears on the plates and drastically reduces battery efficiency,  and in most cases it is irreversible.

[guest3975]

Hi (newbie to this forum here),

Just thought I'd say thanks to those on this forum that have been discussing this. After experiencing some of the typical problems details on this post (engine acting as if it was misfiring at certain revs and making jerky movements where it was not previously (typically when pulling off) and seeming to sometimes hesitate on accelerating) I too tried cleaning my EGR valve and boy what a difference it has made. I did it around a week ago now having had problems going on for the last few months (I even took the car to Honda who after driving it around could not find anything notably wrong (was behaving itself that day) but did change the spark plugs (at my cost) to see if that made any difference.... needless to say that didn't solve my issues.  After reading all the posts on this forum I decided it was worth trying this myself so I got some carb cleaner and ordered a new gasket from a Honda dealer. After I had removed the EGR valve from the car I noticed it was indeed very dirty as other posters have described and went about cleaning it with carb cleaner.


Just some tips/list of things I did for anyone else attempting this:

- Wear gloves (I mean Latex/Nitrile not the cotton sort)

- You probably don't want to attempt this if you have driven the car that day. I found on a previous day that even a short trip will leave the EGR hot for several hours.

- I disconnected the car battery (removed negative/ground) before starting this
    - If you need to get anything out of the boot and have the models with the electronic boot release open the boot before you do this)
    - If you do this your 'auto' window on the drivers side will not work until you re-calibrate it
         - To recalibrate it press the 'window' lower button until the window lowers all the way and then carry on holding it for a few seconds longer. The press the button to raise the window and hold it for a few seconds longer than needed. The window will then have re-learned its automatic function.

- you will need a socket extender to reach the bolts holding the EGR body to its mount

- I found it easier to get to the rear bolt after I unscrewed the mount that holds the connector cable in place (1 bolt that just holds a piece of metal in place that faces forward)

- I could have probably re-used the gasket as it came off more or less intact but I fitted a new one in any case after cleaning off the remains of the old one (this actually took the longest time). But I would not recommend this - just get a new one - they are fairly cheap (I paid around £10 including postage for one).

- I found electrical tape was useful (using the sticky side as a pick up) for picking up odd bits of flaking gasket and carbon deposits on the EGR mount (the part that you are NOT removing) itself. Doing this  stopped the bits falling into the holes which they would have done if I'd have dusted it.

- I used a glass (window scraping) knife to (carefully) get rid of the bits of gasket that stuck to the EGR valve after peeling away the old gasket from the EGR (note: this is messy and the gasket it very sticky).

- I did tape over the electrical connector on the EGR valve with electrical tape before cleaning it with carb cleaner or attempting to remove the gasket just in case anything dropped into the connector and in case the cleaner has an undesired effects on the connection (don't think this is necessary but decided to do it anyways)

- After blasting it with carb cleaner several times I  thought that I had damaged a black ring that was surrounding the round hole on the EGR valve plate (the part that the gasket sits on). BUT I then found that this was in fact just a build up of carbon that had stuck to it after rubbing it with a cloth. I then cleaned this off carefully so that the whole EGR plate was shiny.

- A bit of background: Bought the car (very late 2005 SE model) 2nd hand (privately) with a full Honda service history. All services done yearly by the same Honda garage each time. The fault was not apparent when I bought the car and seemed to develop slowly over  time. (Just worth a mention: I did suffer from another problem on this car around a year after buying it when the dreaded 'whining in low gears' issue occurred but after taking it to Honda armed with printout from another forum posting that contained a Technical Services Bulletin Honda did all the works (replacing defective input shaft bearing) free of charge as there was a known manufacturing issue on some of these. The car has under 50,000 miles on the clock.

- About me: I'm not a mechanic (just a keen DIYer) and do not claim to know everything about this by a long shot so please don't treat anything I have said as absolute fact and I cannot be held responsible for any harm/damage this may cause/you may do from following anything I have said (i.e the usual standard disclaimers to following advise on internet forums apply). Apart from changing the battery (and doing other things like rotating tyres, changing bulbs, wipers, fuses on mine and other friends cars) I had not done anything in the engine bay before this but found this very straightforward to do.



Anyways, the end result is that the car now runs really smoothly with no signs of previous feelings of a misfire and no feeling response hesitation when accelerating. The difference was noticeable straight away. Huge thanks to everyone running this forum and everyone that has contributed to this thread (and sorry about the lengthy posting!)

[chrisc]

That is an excellent post, Mink.  If you have a battery with an internal short, it will be able to start the car but will cause the alternator to work harder trying to charge it beyond a certain voltage.  This will also affect the fuel consumption since there is more drag on the engine.  As Clayhurley pointed out, a new battery altered the way his car performed to the better