2008- brake disc problems

[Maurice]

Has anyone out there had problems with the brake discs on his 2008- Jazz?
My 2009 Jazz i-vtec has covered 25,000 miles. The front discs are down to 20mm, and since the minimum thickness is 19mm they will need replacing at about 40,000 miles at the present rate of wear. The pads still have 6mm of material left, which means they won't need replacing until the car reaches about 50,000 miles.
In over 40 years of owning and servicing my own cars I've found the yardstick to be that discs last about half as long again as the pads.
An additional problem is that the rear discs are corroded to the extent that this year's MOT was issued with an advisory notice because of it.
The response from my local Honda dealer to all this is that it's not unusual on a Jazz to find that front brake pads and discs are required at around the 37,500 mile mark, and that the rear disc corrosion is mainly due to the fact that the manufacturers of brake components have removed the nickel and chrome content from the manufacturing process (and that all manufacturers now have similar issues).
Has anyone one else had similar problems?
Many thanks for all responses.
Maurice

[guest4078]

Supply/fit brakes is a nice little earner for garages, fairly quick and easy to do and a good markup on parts. Providing you take your time they are an easy diy job, with reasonable quality parts available on-line or from local factors.
Specifically for your jazz, remember it is an auto, so that will mean a little more break wear than a manual will have, also if your rear brakes are very rusty, do they work ok? Are the calipers sticking, because if so that will put more wear onto the front brakes.

[UncleZen]

Rear disk corrosion has been mentioned several times on this forum.
On our Jazz, the dealer replaced the disks FOC at 2.5 years old when I pointed it out that was abnormal.

[madasafish]

I have an auto with nice shiny rear disks.

When I wash the car , I always brake hard at low speeds to remove water before parking - and I park in P with handbrake off to prevent pads rusting to the disks at the rear.
I always reverse into our garage and brake hard this clearing the rear disks.

We live on a hill and I usually start driving down the hill which means hard breaking at the end. If I go up the hill, it's a 1 in 4 descent so more hard braking.

Had a succession of cars with rear disks over 20 years and never had any corrosion issues - but then I have followed the same routine for that time...

[willsie01]

The front discs are down to about 18.5mm which is 0.5mm below minimum specification. I'm assuming there's a tolerance on the 19mm minimum specified so can I safely drive the car for a few hundred miles which will enable me to change the discs at a more convenient time?

willsie01
2007 1.4 ES Jazz:

[Maurice]

Following my first post I decided to get my hands dirty and dismantle the rear brakes.
The nub of the problem is that both rear discs on both wheels have only a central "swept area", the outer and inner 6 or 7mm being upswept. I can't see what's causing this though,  because the caliper sliders are clean and uncorroded, and the caliper pistons are also clean and uncorroded.
I scoured both discs and refitted them but I suspect the problem will return.
Anyone got any more ideas?

[stiggysawdust]

Are the faces of the pads flat?

[Maurice]

Yes, but with  light scoring on the outer edge of two of the pads, the ones in contact with the outer face of the discs (the caliper piston applies pressure to the inner face of the disc). 
All four pads are 6mm.
All four disc faces have only a central swept area. 

[madasafish]

Sounds like the pistons are tilting in the bores and applying uneven pressure. Or the piston faces are not flat or not at right angles  to the cylinder walls. Or the disks are incorrectly machined. Or the wheel bearings have too much clearance and rock under breaking or...

No idea.

[Maurice]

I think I may be making a little progress!
After my last post when no one on this forum including me could see any reason for my rear brake disc problems, I tackled my local Honda dealer again.
I explained that I'd dismantled the rear brakes and found no good reason for only the central part of the discs being swept.
I went through it step by step, pointing out that the caliper sliders and pistons were clean and uncorroded. Therefore surely there must be some "low-precision" engineering somewhere in the brake system that was causing only the central part of the discs to be swept.
Yes, was the response, there is an engineering issue with cars of your age and mileage, I was told.  We'll contact Honda Customer support for you, and please do the same yourself so that a goodwill offer can be made hopefully.
I'll let you know how it goes with Honda.
By the way, there's been discussion on this forum about scored rear discs. Now as I understand it, scoring will arise out of corrosion, and corrosion will occur on an upswept part of the disc. Therefore, I would ask those who've experienced scoring, was it on an upswept part of the disc? If so, my dealer's comments may be relevant to you.

[guest1521]

"Now as I understand it, scoring will arise out of corrosion, and corrosion will occur on an unswept part of the disc. Therefore, I would ask those who've experienced scoring, was it on an unswept part of the disc?"

Thanks for that thought. Scoring (deep circular grooves) on my 2009 GE rear discs was plain to see on the *swept *area within a few thousand miles of new. So I wrote to my Honda dealer. Some of the swept area has always looked as though pads pressure is not evenly applied... 

You are right that corrosion can cause scoring, but I don't think it's the only possible cause. Engineering or component quality problems can also cause it.
 
It's nothing to do with corrosion (on my car anyway). The car has always been used regularly including a lot of long distance running and is kept in a dry garage. Now at 40,000 miles, despite the scoring it has now passed MOT twice.

However, I suspect that the dealer will assert that the 'rear discs need renewal' at first pads change. Which'd be premature as they should last two sets of pads.

I've noticed a fair number of Jazz's (GE/ i-Vtec model) parked at the dealer or on the street with the exact same 'scoring' (deep circular grooves) in the *swept* area of rear discs. Other cars' discs are evenly polished in comparison.

[Rory]

By the way, there's been discussion on this forum about scored rear discs. Now as I understand it, scoring will arise out of corrosion, and corrosion will occur on an upswept part of the disc. Therefore, I would ask those who've experienced scoring, was it on an upswept part of the disc? If so, my dealer's comments may be relevant to you.

I've commented in other threads that the rear disks on our 2009 Jazz have always looked terrible. 

We also have a Mercedes which isn't used much and the rear disks look very rusty after a few days but clean up after a short drive.  Our daughter has a 2011 Golf, only used for local use and the rear disk look sparkling - so I don't believe the comment from Honda about material changes.

I complained every service and eventually to Honda direct and they agreed to cover the cost of disks at 3yrs and the dealer paid the labour charge.  18mths on they look as bad as ever.

In my opinion the problem with the rear disks on Jazz is there's just no force on the rear brakes which would keep the disks clean.  Generally, disks do tend to corrode from the inner and outer edges and it spreads across the surface as the corrosion rubs the pad away so less and less of it is actually pressing on the disk.

[guest1521]

I complained every service and eventually to Honda direct and they agreed to cover the cost of disks at 3yrs and the dealer paid the labour charge.  18mths on they look as bad as ever.

In my opinion the problem with the rear disks on Jazz is there's just no force on the rear brakes which would keep the disks clean.  Generally, disks do tend to corrode from the inner and outer edges and it spreads across the surface as the corrosion rubs the pad away so less and less of it is actually pressing on the disk.

Useful for me and others to know... thanks.

IMO we (and others) are talking about TWO different problems here, though.

The 'scoring' I and possibly others are referring to has nothing whatsoever to do with rust/ corrosion. Although corrosion can lead to scoring as you describe, in my case the problem became evident within less than 6 months/5000 miles from new. My Jazz is used for all sorts of motoring - long-distance on motorways, too - so 'discs on pads' braking pressures would be typically much higher than for round-town shopping trolley Jazzes.  Also, when it's not being used, my car is kept in a dry garage. As far as reasonably possible, if wet it is left out to air-dry too before garaging it. 

I would guess the 'deep scoring' problem on mine (and others) has been caused by a mechanical problem and/or a pads and disc materials problem.

On no previous car with rear discs have I had this problem.

Nevertheless, in 40,000 miles it is my only (unforeseen) disappointment with the Jazz... 

[madasafish]

Sorry but 40,000 miles?

I think that's a reasonable life for rear disks on a lightly loaded fwd car..

[guest1521]

Madasafish... Even more 'reasonably', they've got some way to go yet. Passed MOT just a couple of months ago with pads assessed as 50% worn.

The car is a 'light' car however it does lots of motorway miles at 75mph - sometimes with 3 adult passengers and loaded boot.

My point is, when the original pads become due for renewal the 'scored discs' will require renewal, too.

Normally discs should last two pads' changes. Not only that, the 'scoring' on the discs causes faster pads wear.

So much depends on how a car is driven. (Observation+anticipation=easy on brakes, tyres, the car mechanicals...) From experience, I expect significantly longer life than just 40,000 miles for my brakes...