Bad omen?

[Lord Voltermore]

Once again you are a fountain of knowledge which i am grateful for. I wasn't aware that the main batteries were very costly. I have an old SLK ( what a great car btw) and a battery about £70. So the new breed are hundreds?
I agree that one can get stuck in a time warp and reject modernity and 'improvements in technology' but perhaps it is too early to tell perhaps. As an aside, how great being able to have leather seats as an option in my HRV in 2001. From memory £500. Just come to me that the cloth seat had a cigarette burn and it was the salesman who suggested the leather. Still in great shape, which cloth wouldn't be. The Jazz had half leather and wasn't great quality and i prefer 100% of one or other. The Merc leather in 2 tone is something to behold. Funny but the Honda dealership is on a hill and the Jazz toiled going up. When we drove off later in the Merc it took it in its stride!

Oh dear I seem to have put my foot in it and need to put the battery cost  for Hybrids and EV's into context .
  The 12v battery  is an ordinary lead acid battery, ancient technology  as used by most cars .Like all  cars this may  need replacing every few years, for £70 or less.
 
 The High voltage battery used for traction in EV mode in Hybrids and EV's is  high tech, and very expensive. Its the main  reason these  cars are so expensive when new.  But this battery is designed to last the life of the car.  Its no more likely to need a new HV battery than a relatively new car would need a complete brand new engine fitted at main dealer prices. (but if it  did the cost might be similar  )  On the plus side Hybrids  related mechanicals are simple and reliable and far less likely to need expensive repairs to clutch  , gearbox, engine etc  that often send cars to the  scrapyard before their time.   
 
For those who might be concerned about running a mk4  hybrid  in the future when the car reaches its  teenage years . If the battery starts to show its age and needs replacement   there are specialists  already appearing able to recycle and renovate EV batteries at more realistic cost  .Either good used ones from scrapped cars  , or rebuilding batteries  using new cells.   The cost might be more akin to getting a clutch or gearbox replaced rather than a 12v battery.     Unwelcome  but  viable if it extends the life of the car.  On the plus side  you shouldn't also face the cost of a new clutch etc, and ,as another post illustrates, may have already saved £3K  + in petrol costs. 
 
I am surprised it was sluggish up hill.  If you give it plenty of throttle it should climb well enough, but may get noisier than usual for a short while.

[Nicksey]

A thought: regarding LV's last posted reply.

I agree that a replacement 'electric' battery may be high, but I know that it is guaranteed for 8 years, is good for still achieving around 85% charge after this time too.
So, in say 8 years time.. the technology for electric batteries will be better and superior.. and probably cheaper too.
Add to this equation the fact that although we are also running a petrol 1.5 engine, this engine is living a far less stressful life than a conventional 1.5 petrol engine. Seeing as todays motors are regularly, and quite comfortably reaching the 100k and beyond mark there is no reason to think that our Jazz motors would reach a very long life indeed. Albeit the running gear may need replacing often, the bodywork may need patching up and ancillary bits replacing.
I can't guess or comment as to how the gearbox will perform for the duration, but hopefully it would still be comparable to the engine life.

[Lincolnshire Rambler]

Excellent points from both Nicksey and LV . Even if the HV battery degrades over time it would be interesting to see how overall mpg would change . Given the HV battery serves as an energy buffer and is a modest power rating -would a 10 % degradation in capacity make any real difference in the hybrid performance ?
Having driven lots of miles you can’t actually make the petrol ICE engine ‘ sit at its max rev -red line if you like” for very long . Go up a 1:4 hill fully loaded and it will rev out as you climb but will soon “ step down in revs with a simulated gear change “ even with your foot still on the floor . Which is just the smart PCM limiting engine over enthusiastic use . I have yet to drive flat out on a European motorway so i dont know if the ICE engine would max out for an extended period?

[Lord Voltermore]

If the HV did degrade by say 10%  in its old age  how would this manifest itself?  The battery is less efficient in cold weather anyway  but I have never noticed  any loss in  road performance such as acceleration.      Fuel consumption is noticeably higher in winter due to the ICE engine having to run longer and more often  to keep the Battery charged.    But some, maybe even most, of this is because  cold ICE's are less efficient,  more stuff such as climate control is running  and cold air is denser,  increasing wind resistance. All contribute to some extent.

Lets assume   a Mk3 does 50 mpg and a Mk4 does 60 mpg.   Presumably a hybrid  ,with the ICE and some regenerative braking charging the HV battery ,account for a fuel saving of 10 mpg.  Does this mean a 10% reduction in battery efficiency equates to 10% reduction of the  10 mpg?  A increase of 1 mpg is  not the end of the world. (Or maybe it will be    )  You would still have the other advantages of  the  mk4 and it should  still be perfectly usable for  many more years.

But I may be totally wrong with the logic ,physics and reality.      

[coldstart]

My understanding is that many folks prefer to lease their cars nowadays (even on this forum).

So (now playing the devil's advocate here): Why on earth would they ever be concerned about how well any car ages above the lease time?

I have never leased a car in my life (and don't intend to do so, ever!). Yet, I have bought a e:HEV Jazz with the firm conviction of "doing the right thing"!

For the record: The Jazz's HV battery holds a meagre 0,7 kWh and simply serves as a buffer in the car's propulsion system.
So, should the HV battery eventually degrade to 80% of its original capacity would simply mean that the average consumption would go down by a few MPG (or up by 0.x L/100km).
This isn't an "earth-shattering event" that would render the car completely worthless!

Please, let us keep some perspective here, thank you.

[Lord Voltermore]

I raised the issue of  the longevity of High voltage batteries  because a lot of owners of  jazz and other japanese cars keep them for many years . . Far longer than any leasing agreement.( I bought my previous Yaris new and kept it 14 years )

I was conscious that other readers on here may be  contemplating  taking the plunge of buying a  mk 4 hybrid who may nervous about how the new technology will stand the test of time. (Some Mk4 'already date back to 2020.  . And earlier technology Jazz hybrids dating back to 2011 are still going strong )   

[Nicksey]

I made the point about longevity, for the simple fact the Jazz was purchased as my probable last car.
I bought it just as I turned 60, after changing cars every 3 or 4 years. I have never leased or had loaned finance on any car.
The Jazz is for the duration.

[Lincolnshire Rambler]

I would have bought a third nissan note, after drivng two for 14 years and 300,000 miles . Bothpetrol  1.4 16v manual 5 sp. Nissan just stopped uk NOTE sales as they made something else in sunderland . My intention was then to buy a mk 3 jazz , nearest size to my note and as reliable as its a honda .  When i discovered the newish MK 4 jazz i headed to learn more . After a test drive i was taken by its smooth powertrain and much quicker getaway than the NOTE had . The tech on the jazz is a planet away from NOTE / mk 3 land so a stepinto the future with honda . I hope to run the jazz for 10 years and 150,000 miles even after warrantry land disappears… i expect any failures on tbe mk4 will be documented, if they arise ! in our active forum. Honda have lots of hybrid history just as toyota do so im confident for lots of miles yet , accidents permitting!

[ninanina]

I also purchased my Jazz for the long haul

I’m hoping it will be my last car purchase as long as it turns out to be as reliable as expected

So far it’s been 100% perfect and I’m extremely happy with it

[Benny Ng]

My understanding is that many folks prefer to lease their cars nowadays (even on this forum).

So (now playing the devil's advocate here): Why on earth would they ever be concerned about how well any car ages above the lease time?

I have never leased a car in my life (and don't intend to do so, ever!). Yet, I have bought a e:HEV Jazz with the firm conviction of "doing the right thing"!

For the record: The Jazz's HV battery holds a meagre 0,7 kWh and simply serves as a buffer in the car's propulsion system.
So, should the HV battery eventually degrade to 80% of its original capacity would simply mean that the average consumption would go down by a few MPG (or up by 0.x L/100km).
This isn't an "earth-shattering event" that would render the car completely worthless!

Please, let us keep some perspective here, thank you.

Jazz’s battery is 0.86kWh.

[ahavoja]

I think that theoretically, if the HV battery's capacity drops to half, then the petrol engine would just run half shorter time to charge it, and the car would remain in EV mode half shorter period of time, until the engine starts charging the HV battery again.

But as battery gets older, its internal resistance increases as well. Higher internal resistance means that the battery heats up more, both when it is charged and when it is discharged. This will cause an efficiency drop. Basically the car puts more electrical energy into the battery while charging, but the battery doesn't give as much energy out while the battery is discharging, for example when accelerating.