New South African variant.

[JimSh]

This is just one report mentioning the 90% unvaccinated.

https://metro.co.uk/2021/12/21/london-doctor-says-nine-in-10-icu-patients-are-unvaccinated-15805144/

It may be inflated due to frustration.

"as many as 90% of his patients are unvaccinated."

Kinda like the sales" from £4.99"

but I agree it seems unfair that the unvaccinated are using up the resources of the NHS which could be better employed looking after the needs of the rest of the population

[culzean]

On the ONS website latest data release ( 23 Dec ) it reports that 1/3 of people in hospital covid wards were asymptomatic when admitted for something else, but their covid test was positive. Then they had to be moved to covid wards to isolate them from non-covid patients.  So just like SA some do not have symptoms and only the routing testing of people being admitted to hospital shows they have the virus... So that means the 'Hospitalised with covid' figures in the general media are not a true reflection of the present state of play,  and are inflated by something like 35%.

[JimSh]

Studies on AZ and Pfizer / Moderna vaccines suggest that the Adenovirus AZ vaccine give much longer lasting T cell protection compared to short term antibody protection given by mRNA vaccines - that may well explain why Sarah Gilbert of Oxford university said boosters not needed for people who had AZ but Pfizer say one 'booster' jab every 3 months needed.

I don't think that is the gist of the article.
Sarah Gilbert is saying that the vaccines would be better deployed in vaccinating people in poorer countries than in giving boosters here.
The article*  predates the realisation that immunity from two vaccinations (of any kind)  was waning , the discovery of the Omicron variant and the push for boosters.

On the ONS website latest data release ( 23 Dec ) it reports that 1/3 of people in hospital covid wards were asymptomatic when admitted for something else, but their covid test was positive. Then they had to be moved to covid wards to isolate them from non-covid patients.  So just like SA some do not have symptoms and only the routing testing of people being admitted to hospital shows they have the virus... So that means the 'Hospitalised with covid' figures in the general media are not a true reflection of the present state of play,  and are inflated by something like 35%.

Surely that means that there are many young people carrying the virus who will go undetected unless they are admitted to hospital or tested for some other reason.

Edit *Sorry I was referring to this article which I thought you had referenced.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/10/dame-sarah-gilbert-uk-covid-booster-jabs-unnecessary-for-all

[ColinB]

On the ONS website latest data release ( 23 Dec ) it reports that 1/3 of people in hospital covid wards were asymptomatic when admitted for something else, but their covid test was positive. Then they had to be moved to covid wards to isolate them from non-covid patients.  So just like SA some do not have symptoms and only the routing testing of people being admitted to hospital shows they have the virus... So that means the 'Hospitalised with covid' figures in the general media are not a true reflection of the present state of play,  and are inflated by something like 35%.

ONS publish such a mass of data that it's easy to cherry-pick from it to support a particular theory. I can't see anything like that assertion (but I may have missed it), please provide the source so we can see what they actually said. No source = fake news.

[JimSh]

I would appreciate a reference to this statement too

- that may well explain why Sarah Gilbert of Oxford university said boosters not needed for people who had AZ but Pfizer say one 'booster' jab every 3 months needed.

[Lord Voltermore]

I have noticed that moderna are emphasising the need for boosters and even a fourth dose, and the improvement possible if a higher dose of their product is given.   This may have more to do with share prices than science.   They also seem to now  be playing down the need to develop a modified omicron version.  Again is this commercial or science.?   
It was a week or so ago. I  cant recall the precise source material. 

[culzean]

ONS publish such a mass of data that it's easy to cherry-pick from it to support a particular theory. I can't see anything like that assertion (but I may have missed it), please provide the source so we can see what they actually said. No source = fake news.

From ONS

'The majority of inpatients with Covid-19 are admitted as a result of the infection. A subset of those who contract Covid in the community and are asymptomatic, or exhibited relatively mild symptoms that on their own are unlikely to warrant admission to hospital, will then be admitted to hospital to be treated for something else and be identified through routine testing. However these patients still require their treatment in areas that are segregated from patients without Covid, and the presence of Covid can be a significant co-morbidity in many cases.'

Attached is PDF of data ( could not attach xlsx file )  - two sheets in xlsx file

one for 'primarily covid' for patients admitted due to covid

one for 'beds occupied by confirmed covid cases'  - admitted for other reason but found when tested on admission to have covid with no symptoms

The difference between the two figures is the people who were not admitted for covid,  so 6,245 -  4,432

[culzean]

I have noticed that moderna are emphasising the need for boosters and even a fourth dose, and the improvement possible if a higher dose of their product is given.   This may have more to do with share prices than science.   They also seem to now  be playing down the need to develop a modified omicron version.  Again is this commercial or science.?   
It was a week or so ago. I  cant recall the precise source material. 

Even the dyed in the wool doom-mongers on SAGE committee have grudgingly admitted that 'Omicron may be milder than we thought' - they took no notice of the data from South Africa until it was so obvious to be embarrassing.  Throughout the pingdemic SAGE models proved to be about as accurate as a 6 month advanced weather forecast..   I would not be surprised if many of out tame experts have shares in Pfizer, added to the money they were paid directly from taxpayers pockets, and now they may lose a lot of money because it looks like SAGE will be disbanded and no vaccine required for OMGicron variety and Pfizer shares will drop.   Sage were not following the science but following the money oink, oink.

[Jocko]

So of the 6245 patients in a hospital in England on the 21st, only 1813 were not admitted suffering from Covid 19. In other words, 71% were admitted for treatment for Covid.

[JimSh]

I have noticed that moderna are emphasising the need for boosters and even a fourth dose, and the improvement possible if a higher dose of their product is given.   This may have more to do with share prices than science.   They also seem to now  be playing down the need to develop a modified omicron version.  Again is this commercial or science.?   
It was a week or so ago. I  cant recall the precise source material. 

Even the dyed in the wool doom-mongers on SAGE committee have grudgingly admitted that 'Omicron may be milder than we thought' - they took no notice of the data from South Africa until it was so obvious to be embarrassing. 

Sorry to have to keep repeating this but it depends how much less serious.
If it is only slightly less serious this will be more than compensated by the greater number of infections.
If it is much less serious then that would be great.
It will be a couple of weeks before the severity is known.
Until the scientists know it is better to be cautious.
The data from South Africa is being considered but there are many ways in which the South African situation is different from that in the UK.
Younger population.
Less vaccinated population.
Higher acquired immunity from previous infections
Greater number of dead amongst older  population as a result of previous variants
Greater number of compromised immune systems through AIDS
Summer rather than Winter.

https://www.channel4.com/news/covid-omicron-up-to-70-less-likely-to-require-hospital-admission-ukhsa-finds

Edit added link

[culzean]

So of the 6245 patients in a hospital in England on the 21st, only 1813 were not admitted suffering from Covid 19. In other words, 71% were admitted for treatment for Covid.

Yeah, but other less detailed data shows them as 'covid bed patients' which skews the numbers up by 30%,  all I was saying is that not every patient in a covid bed is there because they were admitted for covid.

[JimSh]

So of the 6245 patients in a hospital in England on the 21st, only 1813 were not admitted suffering from Covid 19. In other words, 71% were admitted for treatment for Covid.

Yeah, but other less detailed data shows them as 'covid bed patients' which skews the numbers up by 30%,  all I was saying is that not every patient in a covid bed is there because they were admitted for covid.

As I pointed out before that means that there will be a lot of asymptomatic people out there spreading the virus around some of whom are only detected when they go into hospital for something else

[ColinB]

ONS publish such a mass of data that it's easy to cherry-pick from it to support a particular theory. I can't see anything like that assertion (but I may have missed it), please provide the source so we can see what they actually said. No source = fake news.

From ONS

'The majority of inpatients with Covid-19 are admitted as a result of the infection. A subset of those who contract Covid in the community and are asymptomatic, or exhibited relatively mild symptoms that on their own are unlikely to warrant admission to hospital, will then be admitted to hospital to be treated for something else and be identified through routine testing. However these patients still require their treatment in areas that are segregated from patients without Covid, and the presence of Covid can be a significant co-morbidity in many cases.'

Attached is PDF of data ( could not attach xlsx file )  - two sheets in xlsx file

one for 'primarily covid' for patients admitted due to covid

one for 'beds occupied by confirmed covid cases'  - admitted for other reason but found when tested on admission to have covid with no symptoms

The difference between the two figures is the people who were not admitted for covid,  so 6,245 -  4,432

Thank you, but it’s not really what I asked for. The reason for wanting to look at the source is that the context is important because it may contain comments and caveats about the data. A link rather than another extract would be ideal.

However that’s not important. You jump to the conclusion that data is being “inflated” implying that some kind of deceit is going on. But if the report is “people in hospital with Covid” (https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare?areaType=overview&areaName=United%20Kingdom) then it doesn’t matter whether they knew they had it when they were admitted: they’re in hospital and they’re positive. As others have said all that means is that there’re a lot of asymptomatic people out there (which is going to get worse if omicron is leading to a lower rate - but a higher absolute number - of hospitalisations). Which is why the ONS estimate the infection rate to be 1 in 45 (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19/latestinsights#infections).

[culzean]

Quote of the day  'The frightened ones are especially angry at the unfrightened ones'...

[culzean]

So of the 6245 patients in a hospital in England on the 21st, only 1813 were not admitted suffering from Covid 19. In other words, 71% were admitted for treatment for Covid.

Yeah, but other less detailed data shows them as 'covid bed patients' which skews the numbers up by 30%,  all I was saying is that not every patient in a covid bed is there because they were admitted for covid.

As I pointed out before that means that there will be a lot of asymptomatic people out there spreading the virus around some of whom are only detected when they go into hospital for something else

But a large proportion of the vaccinated carry the virus without symptoms,  not just the unvaxxed.