Author Topic: Advice on Jazz Hybrid "quirks"  (Read 12884 times)

Scoob

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Advice on Jazz Hybrid "quirks"
« on: November 02, 2021, 12:12:23 PM »
Hi all,

Firstly, not my car, but one my Father got recently.  He's had Jazz's for many years now, bu this is his first hybrid.

It's been an interesting time getting used to this car.  On the positive side it feels solidly built, is responsive when it needs to be and genuinely returns approximately 50% more MPG vs his prior Jazz - a 2018 petrol model - while doing the exact same daily drive he has for years.  These are all good things.

The less positive things, aka the "quirks" in the title have me concerned though, I'll go through them here.

Firstly, the active lane assist system, I'd have to go as far to say that it's potentially dangerous.  My dad's never used a system like this before, but understood the basics.  I.e. the car "sees" if you drift out of lane and warns you.  However, where we live it's all narrow roads and single-track lanes and the Jazz simply cannot cope with these.  When driving straight and normal down one of the average country roads here, the lane assist system would regularly stiffen the steering suddenly causing the car to pull to one side.  It would then be far more difficult to counter-steer to correct this.  It obviously thought the car was drifting out of lane, but that's simply not the case at all.  It's just a narrow - in some places single-lane - country road.  This occurred a number of times and is "working as intended" according to the Honda dealership.  Needless to say, my Dad disables this system each time he starts the vehicle now.  It's dangerous on unmarked roads / those without clear white lines showing the edge of the highway.

The second quirk, which the dealership refuse to say what they did to fix, was when the economy plummeted for a few days and the car never switched off the engine as it had before.  After initially being fobbed off that this was "normal" (it really isn't) they eventually agreed to see the car and they fixed the issue.  I suspect it was a software issue, but they'd not tell us despite asking.  It's not done it again since.

The third major quirk is one that happened today, as it almost caused a crash.  My father was driving home through the village - he usual daily route home - and was rounding a corner near the bus stop.  The car suddenly stiffened the steering making getting around the corner VERY hard, as the car tried to go straight.  My dad managed to regain control and get home, but he was understandably shaken up by this.

On further inspection, when he got back, the car had put up a tyre pressure warning - I understand the Honda system uses speed differential between left / right wheels to determine a pressure difference, just like my Mercedes does.  Now, I went around and checked all the tyre pressures and, yes, the driver's side rear was a little lower than the passenger side, so I of course corrected this and reset the system.  My question is, should / would this trigger the stiffening of the steering like this?  It's my only guess on what might have set it off, but I'm not sure.  Regardless, the stiffening of the steering like that was far more dangerous that a slightly soft tyre.

There's one bonus quirk that I suspect might be a software bug or something.  While going through things with my Dad, the interface became totally unresponsive to certain inputs.  i.e. the "Home" button did nothing, not bringing up the menu as it should and the scroll wheel didn't scroll and pressing it did nothing.  After the classic "turn it off and back on again" it worked fine.  However, my dad reported he'd had this a few times.

The problem with many of these quirks, when reported to the dealer, they respond with "we couldn't find a problem" when they mean "we couldn't find THE problem" as there are real issues here.

Now, I can't believe for a minute that these issues - mainly the steering one - is normal.  Honda's are usually pretty well sorted cars and the thing is only a couple of months old.  So, I'm hoping to hear from other owners here to see if they've experienced anything similar.

Thanks.

Kremmen

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Re: Advice on Jazz Hybrid "quirks"
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2021, 12:33:03 PM »
The narrow country road steering issue is complained about a lot and it's the RDMS that does indeed need turning off each journey IMO.

As for the steering lockup, that's a new one. I'm surprised the dealer didn't get any readout to see what happened.

From your post I'd be looking for a different dealer.
Let's be careful out there !

Scoob

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Re: Advice on Jazz Hybrid "quirks"
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2021, 12:38:11 PM »
Thanks for the reply Kremmen, I appreciate you taking the time.

Ok, so the country road this is known here - among fellow owners - but the dealer has never heard of it before... ok lol.

Yeah, it was really weird and unsettled him quite badly.  It's not been to the dealer for this one just yet, as it only happened this morning, after his prior visit.  Note: for clarity, his prior visit was regarding the economy dropping massively and the petrol engine staying on all the time.  This was accompanied - sorry, I forgot to add this in my original post - by the low fuel light coming, and staying on, despite a full tank.

Will have to keep an eye on things.  Turning off the lane assist feature is second nature to him now, so that's covered.  Silly he as to do it every time, but it "fixes" or at least bypasses the issue.  The incident today though, where that system was already off, seems really weird.  Can it switch its self back on potentially do you know?

Thanks again.

Jeff15

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Re: Advice on Jazz Hybrid "quirks"
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2021, 12:44:44 PM »
It does take a while to get used to the Jazz idiosyncrasies, but once you are its all fine.... 8)

Scoob

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Re: Advice on Jazz Hybrid "quirks"
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2021, 01:08:23 PM »
It does take a while to get used to the Jazz idiosyncrasies, but once you are its all fine.... 8)

Thanks Jeff15.  While all cars / manufacturers certainly can have their individual quirks, I think ones that potentially prevent you from going around a corner safely are a bit of a concern.

Like I said though, I'm not sure what caused it, the car simply stiffened up the steering - like lane assist can - while going around a corner at 30mph.  The lane assist system was OFF at the time and the only other issue was the Tyre pressure warning came on too.  I can understand the car potentially trying to stabilise a situation where there was a sudden deflation of a tyre, but I'm not sure how stiffening the steering was supposed to help in this specific scenario.  Regardless, if that was it's solution, it got it wrong.

Trying to understand a legitimate reason why the car may have reacted how it did, which then means better feedback / data can be given to the dealer.  I'm half temped to plug in my diagnostic tool and see what the car has to say.

Will pop out and check the tyre pressure a little later to see if it's gone down again, it did appear to be holding air just fine after I pumped it up earlier, and it's been for a little drive since.

I think it's important to try to understand the series of events and how / why the car's programming responded how it did.  If that can be understood it should allow for better feedback to the dealer as mentioned, or understanding of another quirk we perhaps just have to live with.

It is sort of a shame in a way as my dad specifically asked for a car that didn't have too many invasive features - he didn't really like the over-sensitive parking sensor of his last Jazz.  However, he was assured this car wasn't like that and "there's no need to test drive it, as it's just like your last car - bar the parking sensors" but that wasn't really very honest of them.

Kremmen

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Re: Advice on Jazz Hybrid "quirks"
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2021, 01:31:01 PM »
I assume that last paragraph about not needing a test drive was the same dealer ?

I've been caught before by not getting a test drive but that was my fault.
Let's be careful out there !

Saycol

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Re: Advice on Jazz Hybrid "quirks"
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2021, 02:27:13 PM »
As Kremmen has already pointed out the RDMS ( Road Departure Mitigation System) is on this forum almost universally despised. When I did a test drive, along country roads similar to the type you describe your father uses, the warning symbol on the dash was flashing and beeping and the steering wheel being jerked in a dangerous way. My wife then had a shot, totally different driving style to myself and she experienced exactly the same. It is a nightmare system, totally inappropriate for our country roads and it is truly amazing that the car is sold here in the U.K. with such a system. The saving grace, of course, is that you can disable it, albeit a bit of a pain, at the start of every journey. If that wasn’t possible it would have been a deal breaker for me and I wouldn’t now be driving a Honda.

The other problems your father has encountered sound more concerning as they are not typical amongst Mk 4 Jazz owners. Did he get the car new or was it ex demonstrator or used? Sounds like there are some serious software issues which shouldn’t be there.

Scoob

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Re: Advice on Jazz Hybrid "quirks"
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2021, 02:37:14 PM »
I assume that last paragraph about not needing a test drive was the same dealer ?

I've been caught before by not getting a test drive but that was my fault.

Yes, same dealer.  Dad has been getting his Jazz's from them for 15 years and had little reason to doubt them.  I'd have hoped they'd be a little better, all things considered.  Still, sales people change and it's them that give good, or bad, service.

To be fair to my Dad, all his prior Jazz have been incremental changes.  It wasn't even a huge difference for him when he went from Manual to the CVT auto, he got on fine with that.  This car is a little bit more of a change though, and it is overly intrusive at times.  Also, he's not of the generation that grew up with tech and computers like me, so it's a bit more of a learning curve.  That said, the Jazz UI / controls are pretty unintuitive at times, add to that when they go unresponsive it doesn't help.  I mean, you *think* you know what button to press / option to select, then it doesn't nothing, so you assume you got it wrong.  You then try again and it works.  I guess once you know the quirks you just live with it, but it's not ideal.  Maybe after a few more firmware updates things will work a little more reliably.

The car its self is pretty solid, it's just some of the driver "assists" and general user interface that could do with some refinement.  I know friends of mine with Volvos from about 5 years ago highlighted similar issues with overly-intrusive driver aids and the like, so it's not just a Honda thing by any means.

Just saw your post while typing this Saycol, thanks for your reply.  Yes, it's a terrible and potentially dangerous system  I wonder where a driver would stand in the case of an accident caused by this?  I think if dad had fully appreciated what it would be like, he would have chosen a different brand entirely.

Yes, I did some reading before joining here and heard no mention of his more recent issues while RDMS (I'll try to remember to use the proper name now) was disabled.  He got the car new, it's barely two months old and hasn't done 1,000 miles yet.  I might see if I can dig into any "optional" software updates that might be available only if a customer requests them.  Mercedes had a few like that to address quirks many might not care about.

Jazzik

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Re: Advice on Jazz Hybrid "quirks"
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2021, 03:21:57 PM »
Yesterday I tested the RDMS on a very narrow country road. No white lines, just dirt and grass on either side. Above 30 km/h (18 mph) RDMS "attacks", but I win because I know what's coming.  ;)
Below 30 km/h (18 mph), RDMS will not work. Also indicating interrupts operation.
My experience: You get used to everything! (But annoying it is...)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2021, 04:00:56 PM by Jazzik »
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Kremmen

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Re: Advice on Jazz Hybrid "quirks"
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2021, 03:24:32 PM »
I think you'll find that all new model cars have very similar systems now thanks to wanting a 5* NCAP rating.

I recall a post saying the latest BMW are worse.

The Jazz is a very enjoyable car to drive once RDMS is off.
Let's be careful out there !

culzean

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Re: Advice on Jazz Hybrid "quirks"
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2021, 03:25:43 PM »
As Kremmen has already pointed out the RDMS ( Road Departure Mitigation System) is on this forum almost universally despised. When I did a test drive, along country roads similar to the type you describe your father uses, the warning symbol on the dash was flashing and beeping and the steering wheel being jerked in a dangerous way. My wife then had a shot, totally different driving style to myself and she experienced exactly the same. It is a nightmare system, totally inappropriate for our country roads and it is truly amazing that the car is sold here in the U.K. with such a system. The saving grace, of course, is that you can disable it, albeit a bit of a pain, at the start of every journey. If that wasn’t possible it would have been a deal breaker for me and I wouldn’t now be driving a Honda.

The other problems your father has encountered sound more concerning as they are not typical amongst Mk 4 Jazz owners. Did he get the car new or was it ex demonstrator or used? Sounds like there are some serious software issues which shouldn’t be there.

My brother also had similar problems on country lanes with his Suzuki,  the only thing he sometimes uses as the adaptive cruise control, and even that has quirks - he turns all the other rubbish off every time he gets into the car.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

sportse

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Advice on Jazz Hybrid "quirks"
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2021, 03:34:21 PM »
RDMS is the problem for narrow country roads where I live - I also turn it off before every trip now.

Regarding the petrol engine staying running- perhaps the little 12V battery was low/bad? It might have been staying on to try and charge it up. It will also run if it’s cold and the heating is set high.

For the issue with the steering with RDMS off, it could have been another system that was falsely triggered - CMBS, which brakes and I think also can steer a bit to avoid what it thinks is an accident.

I’ve had mine go off a couple of times, but less than the systems from other manufacturers- they get confused if cars are parked where they shouldn’t or on the verge, or do unusual things.

Lord Voltermore

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Re: Advice on Jazz Hybrid "quirks"
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2021, 03:39:03 PM »
Sorry to hear of your dads problems.   Some folk  do complain about  steering intervention.  In some circumstances the 'pull'  can be quite significant, but it should stop as soon as the system detects the driver has intervened by steering or braking.   Otherwise it assumes the driver is asleep and needs help. And quite right too. 

Drivers reaction to this is largely subjective.  But if you give it a chance  you do get used to it.  .

 But sorry,  my personal opinion is going to upset a lot of people here.  Much depends on how quickly you react to it.

   As a motorcyclist I am well used to reacting quickly and instinctively  to slight slides,and directional instability  due to  changes of surface, lorry ruts   tram lines and the like. The RDMS  intervention is similar in principle,you need to react. I find it no big deal.  Those who have only ever driven a car will have less experience of such 'twitches' and are more likely to find it disconcerting at first.   My wife, who has never ridden a motorcycle,  doesnt  mind the slight twitch, although she may not yet have experienced it at its strongest.

If your father found it so severe he had trouble controlling the car   there may be a problem with his car.  I believe there is a connection between the tyre pressure monitoring system,(or having an actual  pressure loss)  and the rdms  as this is switched off if the TPMS activates.  (My tpm system did activate twice during the first hundred miles or so due I believe to the new  tyres 'bedding in'  Its been fine since)

Sorry if you disagree but I  venture to suggest that your father may  get used to it in time  and not feel the need to switch it off . It can help  hone your reactions,and possibly react that much quicker if the event of a real life skid or directional instability.   And  switching it off is opting out of a system  that might one day actually do its job by saving you from your inattention.  .     

It can be annoying getting the occasional 'wake up' call when you are awake and in control.  And its hard to predict when the system will activate.  Especially when it picks up  obscure road imperfections, and road markings on the drivers side.      Actually I thought that sometimes it picks these  up too late to have been of any help so I tried setting the system from 'delayed' to normal. But I found it then reacted a bit too often so I reset it back to delayed.
(Interesting that Honda have set 'delayed'  as the default   I quick work round maybe?)

If your dads car is currently set to 'normal' he may prefer it set to 'delayed'. 

Deliberately crossing lane markings without indicating also  causes a twitch.  I was always  taught  not to indicate by habit but assess each time  whether  someone will benefit, or might be mislead if you indicate now.  But now you also need to inform the car of your intentions.   :D 



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culzean

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Re: Advice on Jazz Hybrid "quirks"
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2021, 03:41:48 PM »
I think you'll find that all new model cars have very similar systems now thanks to wanting a 5* NCAP rating.

I recall a post saying the latest BMW are worse.

The Jazz is a very enjoyable car to drive once RDMS is off.

Just like the battery, alternator, radio etc these systems probably are not made by the car manufacturer but by specialist firms like Bosch etc
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

shufty

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Re: Advice on Jazz Hybrid "quirks"
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2021, 03:46:27 PM »
...I'm beginning to think that not all our cars are equal from the descriptions given.
It's possible I could experience some of the extreme occurrences that people have described at some point but none of the lane departure steering adjustments with RDMS have been anything but a minor 'tug of the wheel'. Narrow lanes, white lines or not.

The ACC minimum distance (1 bar) that I think Kremmen mentioned being ridiculously too far behind the vehicle in front was actually a bit closer than I would have normally sat at, at motorway speeds. The set distances would appear to be different in my car...

LKAS has been a joy to use so far...in fact so has the whole car :)

It's like people are describing a completely different car!  :o

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