Author Topic: 12V battery flat  (Read 19328 times)

Steve_M

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Re: 12V battery flat
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2021, 04:45:57 PM »
The main reason the Owners manual tells you to connect to the engine mount stud bolt and for this to be the last connection made is to prevent any spark being made to be away from the battery itself as a 12 volt battery gives of flammable gas, so sparking on the battery terminals itself could cause a fire/explosion.

No its the current flow sensor - there was a Honda tech bulletin copied somewhere on this forum that gave the reason for not connecting to battery post.  Modern sealed batteries are designed not to gas, and in any case if they do gas it will only be when they are charging, not when you first attach the charger.   Pretty much every battery charger made in last 10+ years is sparkless,  it won't pass current until correct polarity battery voltage is sensed.  In fact I have been unable to charge a battery that is in a very low state ( not enough voltage to satisfy charger sensor ) and had to connect a good battery in parallel with bad one for a while until bad battery gained sufficient voltage to convince the charger there was a battery there...

Honda tech bulletin attached ( PDF ) - it covers other things so battery charging is third page continuing on fourth page.

I know the content of the bulletin, but charging and jump starting are 2 very different things and the issues involved in either.

So we will have to agree to disagree on this one, thou I suggest you find a copy of a Honda owners manual pre-battery sensor and you will find the connection orientation has always been the same.

Kremmen

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Re: 12V battery flat
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2021, 04:54:35 PM »
That's useful.

So positive to positive and I reckon CTEK negative to that protruding bolt  shown better on the picture marked with the red X.

I've got hardwire ring clips that bolt on and not the crocodile clips shown. If the same as the Civic I can leave the existing nuts alone and add another on each connection.

Proper Job :)
Let's be careful out there !

culzean

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Re: 12V battery flat
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2021, 05:32:11 PM »
Another very good reason  for connecting negative cable / clamp last either when connecting jumper leads or fitting a new battery is that if you connect negative first then if you touch any part of bodywork or engine with a tool while connecting the positive you have a short circuit and a big bang, same if you drop positive jumper lead onto body or engine if the negative already connected, big bang.  So always connect positive first and the chances of getting a short are very low.  If I was jump starting a car I would always connect straight to battery posts.

With modern maintenance free sealed valve regulated batteries used on cars and motorbikes they will only gas when being aggressively charged,  and then a minute amount of gas compared to older types on non-sealed ( vented ) batteries.

Here is an extract from an article .

Practically every UPS (uninterruptible power supply) I know of has one [or more] SLA inside, so it's generally safe for indoor use. Here's a snippet from an APC white paper on the issue:

Valve regulated lead acid (VRLA) batteries [...] do not require special battery rooms and are suitable for use in an office environment. Air changes designed for human occupancy normally exceed the requirements for VRLA [...] ventilation. Vented (flooded) batteries, which release hydrogen gas continuously, require a dedicated battery room with ventilation separate from the rest of the building.

And bit later in the paper the difference in gas output is quantified as 60 times less for VRLA:

VRLA batteries are considered to be “sealed” because they normally do not allow for the addition or loss of liquid. A vented battery can give off sixty times more gas than a VRLA battery in normal use.

And the reason for this is that in a "sealed"/VRLA battery:

hydrogen recombines under pressure with oxygen into water inside the battery. Gas can only escape when internal pressure exceeds the rating of the pressure valve.

« Last Edit: September 03, 2021, 05:51:41 PM by culzean »
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Neil Ives

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Re: 12V battery flat
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2021, 10:34:46 AM »
Reading above, connect to both terminals works OK.

I don't get the issue of not connecting to the negative battery post. Surely the vehicle earth/body and the battery - ve must be at the same potential.
There is a current flow sensor between negative post on battery and metal of car body,  by connecting the charging negative clamp directly to post you are bypassing the current flow sesnor, so you are still charging the battery but the cars computer is not registering that battery is being charged.  Judging the state of charger of a battery by terminal voltage is no longer used, instead 'coulomb counting' is used, where all current flowing in and out of battery is monitored, and the computer decides if the battery is charged or not.       
Thank you for explaining that to me.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 08:26:55 AM by Neil Ives »
Neil Ives

Kremmen

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Re: 12V battery flat
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2021, 05:50:50 AM »
This is how I've done it :



All done, another job jobbed :



It took a while so 12v battery must have been fairly low.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 06:51:28 AM by Kremmen »
Let's be careful out there !

Kremmen

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Re: 12V battery flat
« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2021, 08:50:22 AM »
I haven't driven for just over 2 weeks so I decided to give it a CTEK charge yesterday.

Only took about 2½ hours to the green light so whether it's held it's charge or the smaller capacity I don't know. Civic used to take about 6 hours after a fortnight's rest.

Anyway, same as last time, the left side battery charge level was at max when I started up this morning. So I wonder what the battery meter is actually measuring ? HV/12V or a mix and match.

I plugged in my volt meter and as per a normal alternator setup it started showing 14.4v when the engine was running, then continued to show 14.4v for about a minute after the engine stopped and started dropping until it got to 12.4V

I think I'll leave it plugged in for my Saturday trip :

Image from the Civic:

Let's be careful out there !

Karoq

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Re: 12V battery flat
« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2021, 09:51:51 AM »
Those plug in Voltmeters are brilliant. I have one in the ciggy socket on the Karoq, permanently. Mine has a cabin thermometer as well. (since no car manufacturer I know of has an internal temp gauge).
Dip Mech Eng (automotive)

Kremmen

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Re: 12V battery flat
« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2021, 10:44:12 AM »
Let's be careful out there !

springswood

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Re: 12V battery flat
« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2021, 11:55:37 AM »
I had a very graphic demonstration of why it's vital to disconnect the negative (earth) lead first. Many years ago our kid disconnected the live first. Somehow he then accidentally shorted live to the body with a spanner. After a spectacular bang and flash a large chunk of the spanner (about half of a new penny, it's that long ago) had been vaporised.
"Indecision is a terrible thing"
Or is it? What do you think?

Kremmen

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Re: 12V battery flat
« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2021, 12:10:24 PM »
I already have the CTEK hardwire kit installed so it's just a matter of connecting a plug and switching on.

No fear of a short circuit like with crocodile clips.



Let's be careful out there !

E27006

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Re: 12V battery flat
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2021, 12:11:56 PM »
I had a very graphic demonstration of why it's vital to disconnect the negative (earth) lead first. Many years ago our kid disconnected the live first. Somehow he then accidentally shorted live to the body with a spanner. After a spectacular bang and flash a large chunk of the spanner (about half of a new penny, it's that long ago) had been vaporised.

When repairing a vehicle , it is very good practice to disconnect the battery to render the vehicle safe to work upon. I have personal experience of a short circuit in a solenoid causing an engine to self-crank without the ignition key in circuit.
The vehicle was a Honda CB250N  twin, the fault was traced to the solenoid component for the starter motor, an internal short which connected the battery directly to the starter motor, had the fault occurred while the vehicle was being repaired or serviced could have caused injury to the mechanic and/or damage to the vehicle

sportse

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Re: 12V battery flat
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2021, 12:25:08 PM »
The battery meter on the left of the dashboard is the HV big battery - it should keep its charge for several months(maybe even a year) as it should be disconnected from anything when the car is off.

The 12V small battery will only last a few weeks before going flat - it’s just used to boot the system and connect the HV battery.  From then on it’s charged by the HV battery and the HV battery is charged by the petrol engine.

nowster

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Re: 12V battery flat
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2021, 12:40:20 PM »
The battery meter on the left of the dashboard is the HV big battery - it should keep its charge for several months(maybe even a year) as it should be disconnected from anything when the car is off.

The recommendation in the manual is to drive the vehicle for more than 30 minutes at least once every three months, and that there is continuous drain on the HV battery.

Hugh R

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Re: 12V battery flat
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2021, 02:57:54 PM »
The recommendation in the manual is to drive the vehicle for more than 30 minutes at least once every three months, and that there is continuous drain on the HV battery.

I'd certainly like to know of anyone who's not moved the car for three months and still found the 12v. battery has enough, or any, charge left.
A brave person indeed.

Zaier

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Re: 12V battery flat
« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2021, 02:58:27 PM »

The battery meter on the left of the dashboard is the HV big battery - it should keep its charge for several months(maybe even a year) as it should be disconnected from anything when the car is off.

The recommendation in the manual is to drive the vehicle for more than 30 minutes at least once every three months, and that there is continuous drain on the HV battery.


Yes, but that is just a recommendation to avoid that the self-discharge discharge it untill it's no longer able to start the petrol engine, in the worse possibile condition, like very cold climate and car parked with 3 bars.
I'm pretty sure it will last much longer as it is a lithium battery and once the car is off, it is totally disconnected from the veichle.

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