Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: Jayt43 on January 02, 2024, 02:12:55 PM
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I have a Mk IV Crosstar with 50K km on the clock which is used both for long journeys and also short runs in town. The car is garaged and, in addition to routine servicing I actually have the oil changed every 10K not 20. And mechanically I'm very sympathetic when driving it.
However, on 3 separate occasions (probably over the last 5K) if I've left the car for 3 or 4 days without using it upon start-up the entire vehicle vibrates, to the extent that today (as I've not used the car since Boxing day) I thought the engine would break free of its mounts!!
I weekly check the oil level and that's fine as are all other fluid levels. It seems that, in the US (where the base CR-V + Civic were equipped with a variation of the same 1.5litre L15BE engine, as opposed to LEB-H5 in the Jazz) that vibration on start-up was quite a common issue.
The car runs perfectly after the 1-2 seconds of shaking, but its rather disconcerting. And, of course, if in park when started, applying the throttle in the Jazz has no effect. Any ideas?
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Hi, as the car shows this effect only recently I suspect a defect with the ignition like defective spark plug / loose spark plug connector or maybe even a marten chewed on the cables.
When was your Jazz last serviced and have you already talked to your Honda dealer of choice about this effect?
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Service was 6,000 miles ago. Haven't spoken to Honda, but funnily enough you could be right about an animal chewing on the cables! I'm right on the edge of town and one night about a month ago I couldn't garage her. A few days later I checked the oil and immediately saw that half the bonnet insulation had been torn apart!! I did check all the cables and nothing appeared untoward. And definitely no incidents since then as she's been garaged again as usual. So I'll check that out tomorrow when it's light. But also I'd say this also happened once before the animal intrusion. Thanks for the advice. I'll update the group when I know more!!
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My last Nissan NOTEs with the 16v 1.4 petrol engine always idled very quietly-when warm you could often only tell by the rev counter it was still going . The Jazz manages to sound almost diesel like …! No doubt a result of a high compression ratio and a 100% sterling cycle doing its clever stuff! Of course the jazz engine is never running at a conventional idling speed and doesn’t waste fuel doing just that .
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I have a serious question, as I have never heard any "diesel like" noise from under the hood of the Jazz. Also no strange engine vibrations or shaking for a few seconds after starting...
Are there any of you who experience the above things?
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Although the jazz sounds gruff and a sort of hard edge to its sound it hasn’t ever had any vibration -and the dealer demo car sounded the same on our original test drive as my jazz sounds . And when you floor it it’s not quiet as it storms away at max engine speed before it steps down tbe revs . The good acceleration outweighs any engine sound IMHO..! I wouldn’t have it any other way !
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Yes you can just about hear or feel the vibration when the atkinson cycle engine idles.You can hear it when you floor the pedal for a fast overtake etc. Some petrol engines may be a bit smoother and quieter at times ,maybe even a few well insulated diesel engines. But with the Jazz its not all the time, or especially bad.
When I first got the car , stopped traffic for several minutes , in absolute silence I noticed little things like a bit of beat vibration from door speakers, or caused by an adjacent vehicle. And when the Jazz engine suddenly burst in to life to keep the battery topped up it startled me a bit, and I noticed it was no longer absolutely silent. But no worse than most 'normal' cars I have driven are all the time.
Its a bit like being in a rural area. You can hear the leaves as they fall, the bird song, bleating sheep etc. You notice at first, Being woken by the dawn chorus of annoying noisy little blighters >:(
In the town I had became accustomed to a constant background drone of traffic etc drowning out any annoying little interruptions to my peace and tranquility. Nah :P
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I always think it rumbles/bumps a bit on first start up, but only for a minute until warm. The demo model I first drove did the same too. I am now approaching 16k (72 plate) and the engine I find very quiet and smooth during driving, in fact more so now it is bedded in. Even the electric/petrol exchange is almost imperceptibly less now too.
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We don't have a rev counter but I think the atkinson engine is tuned for efficiency and not idle speeds, so will be loud from cold to warm up the engine as fast as possible. Once out of the garage and off the driveway after a minite or two it quietens down considerably unless you floor it driving. But I don't find any vibration so I think the o/p must have fault somewhere.
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If you can still hear the engine the radio isn't loud enough :)
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I find that mine is very quiet except if you give it some welly,
Plasma
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This evening I did turn off my Spotify music playing so I could listen to the engine from cold . A few seconds later chap parked next to me started his new Nissan xtrail which is the electric drive hybrid and I could hear his engine over the jazz … so perhaps that changes my opinion !
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I've had the same problem with engine vibration/shaking on my 2021 Honda Crosstar, it's done it on 3 or 4 occasions on start up when the engine is cold, lasts for about 5 seconds then clears, the last time was a few days ago where it had been left standing for 2 days.
My local Honda dealership looked into the problem last year but couldn't find any issues with the engine.
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Yesterday it was my turn: extreme rattling and vibration at startup! Like someone was shaking a box of spanners. So much different than normal; hard to miss.
Luckily I read this post and waited a while (if not, I would have switched it off immediately); it went away after about 20 seconds. Then it was silent and without vibration as ever before.
It is a 2021 Crosstar with 38k km on the clock; serviced as Honda specified. I will keep a close eye to it and go back to the dealer if it might return.
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Yesterday it was my turn: extreme rattling and vibration at startup! Like someone was shaking a box of spanners. So much different than normal; hard to miss.
Slowly I'm starting to worry about Honda's engineering...
The noise you and Jayt43 describe could also stem from a failing timing chain tensioner :o
Timing chain problems are nothing to trifle with! A leaped timing chain can cause severe engine damage!
You should definitely talk to your Honda dealer about this.
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Yesterday it was my turn: extreme rattling and vibration at startup! Like someone was shaking a box of spanners. So much different than normal; hard to miss.
Luckily I read this post and waited a while (if not, I would have switched it off immediately); it went away after about 20 seconds. Then it was silent and without vibration as ever before.
It is a 2021 Crosstar with 38k km on the clock; serviced as Honda specified. I will keep a close eye to it and go back to the dealer if it might return.
Marco, was your start after a couple of days without driving the vehicle? Or was it very cold? Interesting that my Crossstar is similar in age to yours (just with 52k km on the clock). For me I've had it occur twice. Both occasions were after not using the vehicle for 3-4 days (I usually use it daily).
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I've had the same problem with engine vibration/shaking on my 2021 Honda Crosstar, it's done it on 3 or 4 occasions on start up when the engine is cold, lasts for about 5 seconds then clears, the last time was a few days ago where it had been left standing for 2 days.
My local Honda dealership looked into the problem last year but couldn't find any issues with the engine.
Yes, exactly my car's symptoms too. I actually baby the vehicle in that it has oil changes every 10k km not 20k, so it's well looked after ;-) But the shaking is pretty intense and disconcerting. My dealer says all is fine too.
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Timing chain problems are nothing to trifle with! A leaped timing chain can cause severe engine damage!
A leaped timing chain doesn't correct itself after a few seconds(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/konfus/a015.gif), am I right?
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A leaped timing chain doesn't correct itself after a few seconds(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/konfus/a015.gif), am I right?
No, it certainly won't!
However, a tight (especially after a "longer" stand still) tensioner might just resume its duty and thus stop the timing chain rattling after a few seconds.
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It occurred after 5 days of non-use, temperature around 3oC. So sounds familiar!
I emailed my dealer and next time I keep my phone filming before starting; hope I can capture it.
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It occurred after 5 days of non-use, temperature around 3oC. So sounds familiar!
I emailed my dealer and next time I keep my phone filming before starting; hope I can capture it.
Thanks Marco! Yes, there does seem to some commonality! I've also checked a few Prius forums (as they also use Atkinson cycle engines), along with other threads on ClubJazz. For me, it's most likely something like the EGR valve requiring a clean. My Crosstar does 80% short city stop/start runs (i.e school / shopping) with the remainder longer motorway journeys.
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I do few short trips (around 10 km), but most of my trips are longer! Friends and family live at 80 to 120 km, so engine warms up regularly ::)
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For me, it's most likely something like the EGR valve requiring a clean.
And how would a clogged / jammed EGR valve cause the rattling noise you mentioned?
A loose timing chain due to a temporarily jammed tensioner certainly would make some noise plus alter the timing (which would explain the vibrations too). Once the tensioner moves into position and tightens the chain the problems would instantly disappear as they do in your and Marco's Jazz.
Over time the chain lengthens somewhat and the real problems kick in when the loose chain jumps on startup.
So, have a mechanic check the tensioner.
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Obviously something is causing the issue of the occasional severe start up vibration . Are we to think the hydraulic chain tensioner could be the problem ? Given Hondas past history at making DOHC engines with VTEC technology of a high reving nature as seen in the S 2000 engine and civic type R s - it would be expected honda not only know how to engineer such things but put that engineering into production . If you see some German cars owners forums they see lots problems with chains tensioners etc well within warranty miles . No doubt in older cars , lack of oil changes and incorrect oil grades play a part but we shouldn’t be seeing such issues on mk4 most of which are younger than the 3 or so years since it’s launch ? Has anyone exceeded 60,000 miles yet?
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I was thinking: most of my 38k km were driven at speeds in between 80 and 95 kmph or 50 to 60 mph. This is hybrid mode where the engine stops, you drive 500 to 1200 meters on electricity and then the engine fires up again for 800 to 1200 meters. Also in slower traffic starts and stops occur even at shorter distances. So maybe after 38,000 km the engine started 20 to 30,000 times. This is a lot and might seriously decrease chain tensioner life!
Very curious on my dealer’s response; I will keep you posted.
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Let’s not forget that the MMD hybrid was launched in the CRV before the jazz and that’s the same drive train except for the 2.0 litre engine and different final drive gear ratios-any such issues would be noticeable by now as more higher mileage engines will exist ?
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I think it unlikely that it is anything to do with the timing belt/chain tensioner. The technology involved with this area has moved on in leaps and bounds, especially at Honda. As to Marco1979's reply regarding the petrol side having to constantly kick in, well most manufacturers have been employing the stop/go engine feature for quite a few years now, and I don't recall any timing issues there. My last 4 Renaults all stopped the engine at every light/junction/traffic jam and never suffered any ill effects. Also, when the petrol/electric interchange takes place, there is momentum involved which would put less strain on the timing chain/belt side of things too.
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Surely it is common sense that the micro will spin the engine to the correct revs before the gear clicks in for direct drive at higher speeds?
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The computer controlling the petrol engine will spin the engine to match its direct drive speed within a few milli seconds and even from not running in EV mode it won’t take long to spin up . This control is one of the big benefits of the hybrid tech -at the traffic light “Grand Prix “ you can floor it from standstill and the engine can start and spin to its redline . In a normal drive train you can’t as you have to rev through the gears ( apart from a cvt ) . Of course it won’t hold the redline as the revs drop off if you ease off
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Dealer says that several CR-V and Jazz e:hev have these symptoms. They contacted Honda about it and according to the technicians it won’t harm the engine. So no action needed.
Glad I reported it (in case it does cause any harm after all) and good to know it is also the 2.0, not only the 1.5
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Personally I wouldn't trust anything a dealer told me. I once bought a brand new Fiesta that jumped out of second gear almost every time I descended a hill or went around a bend. The Ford dealer refused to accept it was happening and when I asked if I could accompany the dealer or mechanic when he tested it I was told their insurance wouldn't allow it.
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Dealer says that several CR-V and Jazz e:hev have these symptoms.
I'm curious what the answer of the technicians would be to the following question: Why do several CR-V and Jazz e:hev have these symptoms and many other CR-V and Jazz e:hev (ours...) do not have them.
Different engines? (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/konfus/a018.gif)(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/konfus/c086.gif)
Personally I wouldn't trust anything a dealer told me. I once bought a brand new Fiesta that jumped out of second gear almost every time I descended a hill or went around a bend. The Ford dealer refused to accept it was happening and when I asked if I could accompany the dealer or mechanic when he tested it I was told their insurance wouldn't allow it.
Fortunately, you no longer have to deal with a Ford dealer! (https://www.toyotahybrideforum.nl/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
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If it really sounds as bad as people in this thread have described and others (myself included) have never seen anything like it, it is an easy way out for a dealer to say it is normal and just wait until out of warantee for anything worse to happen. I think I would want a cast iron letter from Honda UK to fall back on?
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I plan on making and sharing a video of the sound. It was horrendous :o. I hope it was a one time event, but if not you will know!
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If you google "timing chain rattle honda" you will find several videos and other sources.
It seems that the "variable valve time control" (VTC) can produce these short rattlings on cold starts:
This is a very technical description for older Accords and CR-Vs (including a Honda TSB number):
https://www.underhoodservice.com/tech-tip-honda-accord-cr-v-rattle-start/
If you google "vtc rattle honda jazz" you will even find the Honda technical bulletin 16-088 (direct pdf download link) (https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2017/SB-10098906-5233.pdf) for Honda Fit models between 2015-2016 with the following fault description:
SYMPTOM
At cold start up, the engine rattles loudly for about 2 seconds. This may be intermittent and occurs on cold starts where the engine typically has not been started for 6-8 hours.
@Marco1979 and @Jayt43: Sound familiar? :D
It seems possible that later models may be affected in the same way.
Addendum:
@Marco1979 and Jayt43: Please check the oil level!
According to https://www.underhoodservice.com/honda-oil-system-inspection-procedures/ (https://www.underhoodservice.com/honda-oil-system-inspection-procedures/) a low motor oil level can cause all sorts of unwanted things (including sounds because the oil pressure activated tensioners aren't working).
Checking the motor oil level (and topping it up) is an easy "repair" :)
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I don’t think it is the vtc. The sound was louder, more metallic and lasted much longer. Also the car was shaking/trembling. I’m unable to find something similar online, so it is hard to explain.
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Personally I wouldn't trust anything a dealer told me. I once bought a brand new Fiesta that jumped out of second gear almost every time I descended a hill or went around a bend. The Ford dealer refused to accept it was happening and when I asked if I could accompany the dealer or mechanic when he tested it I was told their insurance wouldn't allow it.
Fortunately, you no longer have to deal with a Ford dealer! (https://www.toyotahybrideforum.nl/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
[/quote]
First and last. ;D
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I have had well maintained ICE petrol and diesel engines in the past that occasionally ran roughly for a few seconds on start up. A quick blip on the throttle , perhaps without realising you are doing it , and they settled down immediately
With the Hybrid the ICE starts in a way that is sort of independent of the driver. Sometimes it may not need to start at all , and when it runs it choses its own slow speed. You typically dont use the throttle until moving off, and even then the engine may not speed up.
Is it surprising that sometimes it might take slightly longer for the engine to settle down and run smoothly ?
I'm speculating a bit here but I can imagine quite simple things that that might make a cold (or recently quite hot) engine falter slightly at first. Such as fuel pressure not yet built up to be equal to all fuel injectors, or fuel not vapourising equally well in every cylinder.
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I'm the king of low mileage, still under 4k from Sep 21
I do start the engine periodically or go for a run if the weather is OK to charge the HV battery and so far it's been as sweet as a nut
However, I get the keys to my new house in a few weeks and it's going to get used for DIY and tip runs. It won't know what's hit it :)
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Can I have the crown please? Sep 22 and 1218 miles. :o
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I do a little more by (https://clubjazz.org/forum/av/avatar_4417_1386628965.jpg) per year ... :D
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I don’t think it is the vtc. The sound was louder, more metallic and lasted much longer. Also the car was shaking/trembling. I’m unable to find something similar online, so it is hard to explain.
Yes, the whole car shaking is the same for me. Like an earthquake hitting for a split second or two, then back to normal!! My oil level is checked once a week. The first time it happened was approx. 500km after its last service, so the new oil was still clear!
For me it's interesting that, if I use the car as normal (i.e. 4-5 times a day) and park overnight, no issues at all. It runs very sweetly. But if I left it for a week without using, I'm sure the fault would occur again. 52k km on the engine so far, with oil changes every 10k (as I planned to keep her for a long time and pass on to my daughter as her 1st car).
Booked in for fault finding and a separate 12V power socket fix, but appointment only in 2 weeks time.
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Can I have the crown please? Sep 22 and 1218 miles. :o
Wow!
Why would you spend so much on an expensive car like a Jazz... only to leave it on the drive!
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My neighbour in London had a 55 plate Fiesta and did about 50 miles a year
Tip and service/MOT
The Fiesta fag socket must be permanently powered because he had a dash top solar panel that kept the battery charged
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I don’t think it is the vtc. The sound was louder, more metallic and lasted much longer. Also the car was shaking/trembling. I’m unable to find something similar online, so it is hard to explain.
For me it's interesting that, if I use the car as normal (i.e. 4-5 times a day) and park overnight, no issues at all. It runs very sweetly. But if I left it for a week without using, I'm sure the fault would occur again.
That would fit in with my theory about the high pressure fuel rail. The pressure, and possibly the fuel level might be gradually dropping. Not enough to cause any problems if only left for a few days, but after a week the car might be initially starting with an insufficient fuel/air mixture . The new and efficient engine might still fire up immediately and run roughly on a couple of its cylinders until its firing on all cylinders.
On conventional cars any lost pressure can be built up while you are cranking on the starter motor. It may sometimes take slightly longer than usual before it starts at all, but would you necessarily notice or worry if the car doesnt fire up instantly - especially in cold weather ?
With the hybrid you dont directly start the engine. You initialise a start up procedure but a computer decides if and when it needs to start and stop the ICE. I suspect Honda, and probably other makers, have a bit of a dilemma . They can probably detect if an engine starts as instructed and whether its running badly. If it happens when the engine should by now be up and running properly there may be ECU metering changes, or serious red warning lights and the car comes to a stop. :-[
But if an engine occasionally runs badly on start up but they know it will clear itself within a few seconds they wont want to hit any panic lights and shutdown for those. It may be something thats extremely difficult to eliminate entirely either by mechanical or computer solutions. Hence a bit of a " they all do that" fudge.
My neighbour in London had a 55 plate Fiesta and did about 50 miles a year
Tip and service/MOT
The Fiesta fag socket must be permanently powered because he had a dash top solar panel that kept the battery charged
I have a dash top solar panel which plugs into the OBD11 port on the Jazz . I havnt needed to use it much, but the car did start OK after being unused during January and February. The port is not that easy to reach for regular use but it may be a solution for some.
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Why would you spend so much on an expensive car like a Jazz... only to leave it on the drive!
The miles prove it is not always on the drive ;) :D No commuting anymore, it's a second car for longer trips where the oil can warm up a bit, the E does all the local shopping, couple of miles back and forth.
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Can I have the crown please? Sep 22 and 1218 miles. :o
Wow!
Why would you spend so much on an expensive car like a Jazz... only to leave it on the drive!
Because he's got an even more expensive car to to drive around in ;D
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Can I have the crown please? Sep 22 and 1218 miles. :o
Wow!
Why would you spend so much on an expensive car like a Jazz... only to leave it on the drive!
Because he's got an even more expensive car to to drive around in ;D
I wonder how many miles the E has on the odometer (and in how much time)...
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I don’t think it is the vtc. The sound was louder, more metallic and lasted much longer. Also the car was shaking/trembling. I’m unable to find something similar online, so it is hard to explain.
For me it's interesting that, if I use the car as normal (i.e. 4-5 times a day) and park overnight, no issues at all. It runs very sweetly. But if I left it for a week without using, I'm sure the fault would occur again.
That would fit in with my theory about the high pressure fuel rail. The pressure, and possibly the fuel level might be gradually dropping. Not enough to cause any problems if only left for a few days, but after a week the car might be initially starting with an insufficient fuel/air mixture . The new and efficient engine might still fire up immediately and run roughly on a couple of its cylinders until its firing on all cylinders.
Your theory (low pressure in the fuel rail) doesn't explain the rattling.
The only thing that could cause a rattling this loud is the timing chain.
Moreover, you all seem to ignore that previous Honda engines (not only in the Jazz) had the exact same symptoms with exactly the same failure description.
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The usual way to start a keyless car is to press the brake and the ignition button at the same time as we want to start.
This procedure is wrong, especially at low temperatures.
The correct way is to press the switch once without pressing the brake pedal, which also unlocks the steering wheel.
Then press the switch a second time without pressing the brake pedal.
At this stage all the indicator lights come on.
After the lights go out THEN press the brake and a third time the switch to start the thermal engine.
Try it and you won't have any problem.
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I tend to agree with Lord Vs comments . When the PCM calls for the ICE to start it does so very quickly and this makes it very different to a 12v starter motor spinning the engine to 300/400 rpm . It can spin to 2000 + rpm in seconds . The 80kw drive motor makes easy work of starting ! You can’t compare normal petrol engines in older Hondas , even if they experience similiar sounds or apparent affects . If the fuel rail looses pressure the PCM can still start the ICE engine and as it will know the fuel pressure it can decide to continue to run , as it will probably know using cylinder anti knock sensors if it’s running as expected within a few seconds . I don’t see the variable valve drive chains loosing the tensioner oil pressure causing the severe vibration -my view is the very fast starting speed would instantly cause catastrophic failure of the valve drive train if the tensioner had issues .
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I wonder how many miles the E has on the odometer (and in how much time)...
1448 from June 21 ;)
It's the better car to drive, but the fact you can enjoy driving the Jazz and not feel inferior says a lot for the Jazz hybrid system, performance from traffic lights and comfort.
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Have a look at this for engine vibration.
https://www.crvownersclub.com/threads/2018-crv-shakes-vibrates-on-cold-start.221722/
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Hector raises an interesting view. I guess once the stage of the indicator lights coming on this could trigger the fuel pump to start and then stop to pressure the fuel rail fully . In many conventional ICE cars you can sometimes hear that pump start and then stop ahead of starting the engine . Maybe that makes sense to follow Hectors steps after parking up for a while ?
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Car hadn’t been used for 6 days. Camera rolling and then starting the engine using the button. Smooth as always! Apparently it knows it is being filmed :D. Hope it was a one-time-event.
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With all the talk of vibrating engines, flat batteries and unfolding wing mirrors, I'm beginning to get start-up anxiety ???
Although I've had none of those things myself.
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Unfortunately, I'm missing all that excitement (so far) too. :P
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With all the talk of vibrating engines, flat batteries and unfolding wing mirrors, I'm beginning to get start-up anxiety ???
Although I've had none of those things myself.
Don't forget to add delaminating windscreen to that list now ;D
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The usual way to start a keyless car is to press the brake and the ignition button at the same time as we want to start.
This procedure is wrong, especially at low temperatures.
The correct way is to press the switch once without pressing the brake pedal, which also unlocks the steering wheel.
Then press the switch a second time without pressing the brake pedal.
At this stage all the indicator lights come on.
After the lights go out THEN press the brake and a third time the switch to start the thermal engine.
Try it and you won't have any problem.
I have used this 3 stage start up, many times, as I like to programme the satnav, before I start the engine. Purely a habit. Is it mentioned in the handbook, as a good idea?
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It took me a day ;D but I didn't find this 'good idea' in the manual. Maybe try yourself... (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/konfus/c050.gif)
https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/owners/manuals-and-guides/honda-owners-manuals/_jcr_content/par1/textcolumnwithimagem_1653971839/textColumn/richtextdownload_90f/file.res/2021%20Jazz%20Owner%60s%20Manual.pdf
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no mention that I could find either.
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Hi to everyone, I have a 2021 Jazz with almost 50k kms.
I got I think the same trembling/shaking.
Here is a video you can hear it during first 10 seconds then the motor sound is okay and normal.
You need to hear it loud in the video but in the car you hear it and feel it much more than the motor sound.
Do you confirm this is what you had ?
Did you find the culprit ?