Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: Derkie54 on December 14, 2020, 03:51:45 PM
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Road test Jazz v Yaris
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/hybrid/toyota-yaris-vs-honda-jazz-crosstar-hybrid-supermini-test
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Thanks for this. Apart from the comments about the Yaris' rear seats being more claustrophobic there's no specific comment about the Yaris being a smaller vehicle than the Jazz (but the final photo shows this very effectively). It's no surprise that the Yaris is the more economical of the two although I'm wondering how the Crosstar was driven in order to get only 52mpg (outside lane of motorway?). However, it's good to see the Crosstar gets the reviewer's vote for reasons familiar to the Crosstar owners.
There's a Yaris Cross arriving soon which looks somewhat larger than the basic Yaris https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-toyota-yaris-cross-previewed-price-specs-and-release-date/n21346 (https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-toyota-yaris-cross-previewed-price-specs-and-release-date/n21346) and may be larger than the Crosstar.
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No heated seats in the Yaris and metallic blue not available in the version I wanted, also the Jazz EX has a heated steering wheel. So the Jazz EX was my choice and I am very pleased with it.
Unfortunately, moving from an HRV EX I miss the self dimming rear view interior mirror and the dipping wing mirror when reversing, also the passenger seat does not have adjustable height. Shame.
Hondas penny-pinching spoils the alloy wheels with the ugly plastic trims. Lesser models have much nicer wheels but not able to have those. But I really am still pleased with it.
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Sadly it's the same with the Civic range. Each new model year sees nice to have bits being removed.
Designed by accountants not enthusiasts.
I would have expected the auto dimming rearview mirror to be standard on the EX versions. The auto dipping passenger door mirror I had on my Xantias, a very useful feature. Honda have it so why not install it across new models, penny pinching.
My Civic has a useful elasticated strap in the glovebox to hold the manual pack vertical, at the back out of the way, to give useful space. The model year later, they removed it so if you carry the manual the glovebox is not as useable. They also r3moved the neat front seat bolt covers. Later models had exposed seat bolts that looked tacky.
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Good link, thanks for posting. :)
I didn't realise just how complex the Jazz drivetrain is. The Toyota has a more simple drivetrain, or at least it has to my mind.
Prefer the look of the Jazz and the refinment is a big bonus, but the Yaris is more traditional. Interesting comparison. Still surprised that superminis are £20,000 though. That is a lot of money for a small car.
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Unfortunately, moving from an HRV EX I miss the self dimming rear view interior mirror and the dipping wing mirror when reversing, also the passenger seat does not have adjustable height. Shame.
Hondas penny-pinching spoils the alloy wheels with the ugly plastic trims.
The reversing camera largely compensates for the absence of the dipping wing mirror although it's omission saves no money as the motor is still in the mirror for adjustment. I've no complaint about the plastic trims on my Crosstar's wheels. There's less shiny metal to keep clean.
I didn't realise just how complex the Jazz drivetrain is. The Toyota has a more simple drivetrain, or at least it has to my mind.
The Jazz is mechanically relatively simple: Basically there's a generator (which can also work as a motor) bolted to the engine plus a motor (which can also work as a generator) fixed to the final drive with a box of solid state electronics (assisted by the battery and possible super-capacitor) matching the engine speed to the road speed/power requirement.Then there's the clutch that enables direct drive if cruising above about 43mph (I measured this on my Crosstar) to avoid the energy loss through the box of electronics. All this, except the battery, is contained in a module of similar size to the CVT gearbox and the electronics has got its own cooling system. I don't know if the generator attached to the engine replaces the flywheel which was the case with the IMA hybrids.
As the review noted, this transmission configuration avoids the engine speed variations associated with a mechanical CVT gearbox and the engine can go immediately to the speed needed to match the power requirement with the battery handling any small shortfall / surplus in power. Honda calls it eCVT which is technically correct but causes many people to think that there's still a mechanical CVT gearbox under the bonnet.
The Jazz pricing might become more competitive. I recall that there's currently a 10% tariff on vehicles imported from Japan which will disappear when the UK - Japan trade agreement is implemented while, on the other hand, it's currently looking likely that there will soon be a 10% tariff on vehicles imported from Europe.
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My first impression when comparing that Yaris to the Crosstar was comparing apples and pears.
A normal Jazz v Yaris might have been more suitable ?
10% cheaper maybe next year, glad I'm waiting for the MY21 :)
With regard to the lack of the auto dimming rear view mirror, my 8G Civics never had them and I tooled around 24x7 with it on permanent dip. Quite useful with some powerful DRL's out there.
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The last information I read concerning import duties on cars from Japan to UK was that the tariffs would be removed in 2026. I believe discussions are continuing but 2026 is the date for the elimination of tariffs on cars imported to EU - so it looks like we are mirroring the EU still!!
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There is a comparison test with the new Yaris, Jazz and VW Polo in the latest edition of WhatCar. Interesting reading with the jazz coming out top.
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I didn't realise just how complex the Jazz drivetrain is. The Toyota has a more simple drivetrain, or at least it has to my mind.
The Jazz is mechanically relatively simple: Basically there's a generator (which can also work as a motor) bolted to the engine plus a motor (which can also work as a generator) fixed to the final drive with a box of solid state electronics (assisted by the battery and possible super-capacitor) matching the engine speed to the road speed/power requirement.Then there's the clutch that enables direct drive if cruising above about 43mph (I measured this on my Crosstar) to avoid the energy loss through the box of electronics. All this, except the battery, is contained in a module of similar size to the CVT gearbox and the electronics has got its own cooling system. I don't know if the generator attached to the engine replaces the flywheel which was the case with the IMA hybrids.
As the review noted, this transmission configuration avoids the engine speed variations associated with a mechanical CVT gearbox and the engine can go immediately to the speed needed to match the power requirement with the battery handling any small shortfall / surplus in power. Honda calls it eCVT which is technically correct but causes many people to think that there's still a mechanical CVT gearbox under the bonnet.
The Jazz pricing might become more competitive. I recall that there's currently a 10% tariff on vehicles imported from Japan which will disappear when the UK - Japan trade agreement is implemented while, on the other hand, it's currently looking likely that there will soon be a 10% tariff on vehicles imported from Europe.
Thanks for the very detailed reply. It is a Honda, so reliability is pretty much a given. :) It is complex though.
Ive watched a couple of great Youtube videos, to further aid my understanding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b8au-uD4KY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b8au-uD4KY)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6glpZTRT6qE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6glpZTRT6qE)
In the second link, at 3 min 10, Mr Ko Yamamoto from Honda describes the system as complex. But, I understand now how it works. In Hybrid drive mode the ICE works to power the generator, which I have in my mind as being effectively a massive alternator. That makes sense.
We have had our 2013 Jazz manual for just under six months, and it has proved to be such a versatile and reliable vehicle. I expect it will be up for replacement in about 5 years by which time it will have 150,000 miles on it. At that point I expect the current Jazz will probably be in the price range I am prepared to spend on a car, and its reliability proven. That said though, Jazz hold their money so well, and demand is growing.
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There is a comparison test with the new Yaris, Jazz and VW Polo in the latest edition of WhatCar. Interesting reading with the jazz coming out top.
Thanks. I can't find that specific comparison online but this review of the Yaris https://www.whatcar.com/toyota/yaris/hatchback/review/n31 includes some comparisons with the Mk 4 Jazz such as this remark: "If you like to sit farther from the ground and in a more upright position, try the Honda Jazz."
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.... there's no specific comment about the Yaris being a smaller vehicle than the Jazz (but the final photo shows this very effectively). .......
... but to paraphrase the words of Father Ted, one is near, and the other is far far away. The Jazz is in a closer parking bay than the Yaris. It probably is bigger in reality, I haven't checked the dimensions.
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... but to paraphrase the words of Father Ted, one is near, and the other is far far away. The Jazz is in a closer parking bay than the Yaris. It probably is bigger in reality, I haven't checked the dimensions.
Well spotted! I've checked the specs for the Yaris and the normal Jazz (not Crosstar) and the dimensions (mm) are:
Yaris: 3940 long x 1745 wide x 1460 high
Jazz: 4044 long x 1694 wide x 1526 high
Diff: +104 -51 +66
ie the Mk 4 Jazz is 4" longer, 2" narrower and 2 1/2" higher than the Yaris
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Having seen both new Yaris and Jazz now, I must congratulate both Toyota and Honda for keeping the new model pretty much the same size. Most manufacturer always make the new model bigger...take the new Corsa and 208, they are so much bigger.
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Thanks for the very detailed reply. It is a Honda, so reliability is pretty much a given. :) It is complex though.
Ive watched a couple of great Youtube videos, to further aid my understanding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b8au-uD4KY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b8au-uD4KY)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6glpZTRT6qE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6glpZTRT6qE)
In the second link, at 3 min 10, Mr Ko Yamamoto from Honda describes the system as complex. But, I understand now how it works. In Hybrid drive mode the ICE works to power the generator, which I have in my mind as being effectively a massive alternator. That makes sense.
We have had our 2013 Jazz manual for just under six months, and it has proved to be such a versatile and reliable vehicle. I expect it will be up for replacement in about 5 years by which time it will have 150,000 miles on it. At that point I expect the current Jazz will probably be in the price range I am prepared to spend on a car, and its reliability proven. That said though, Jazz hold their money so well, and demand is growing.
This also is a good explanation.
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Having seen both new Yaris and Jazz now, I must congratulate both Toyota and Honda for keeping the new model pretty much the same size. Most manufacturer always make the new model bigger...take the new Corsa and 208, they are so much bigger.
The foot print of the cars may be the same, but the 2020 Jazz is 17% heavier than my the 2008-2015 model.
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The foot print of the cars may be the same, but the 2020 Jazz is 17% heavier than my the 2008-2015 model.
The 2020 Jazz is also safer in a crash. New plattform. Weight = crash safety.
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Another page explaining the I-MMD system.
https://www.marklines.com/en/report_all/rep1257_201402#report_area_2
It's about an Accord Hybrid, so the first generation of the I-mmd (Jazz should have the 3° generation), anyway I found it very interesting.
Open parts 2 and 3 for the whole teardown.
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The foot print of the cars may be the same, but the 2020 Jazz is 17% heavier than my the 2008-2015 model.
I expect that much of the increase is due to the power pack, associated electronics and its cooling system. Getting the higher efficiency without the extra weight is a challenge for the future.
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The foot print of the cars may be the same, but the 2020 Jazz is 17% heavier than my the 2008-2015 model.
The 2020 Jazz is also safer in a crash. New plattform. Weight = crash safety.
You wouldn't think extra weight was a benefit if you had seen the volvo ( 2 ton + ) vs Renault modus
Just to update your beliefs
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Fourteen years difference in safety design.
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Fourteen years difference in safety design.
It was just to illustrate that weight isn't everything...
When we were living in Australia they did tests on the 'safety' of 4x4 ( Australia is the home of 4x4, Chelsea tractor - or Pitt Street farmers tractor as they call them over there ) - their findings were if you hit something a fair bit smaller you may be safer in a 4x4, but if you hit anything stationary ( like a power pole, tree or rock ) or another larger vehicle you were worse off in a 4x4 because the rigid chassis and lack of crumple zones meant that a lot of the energy of the crash was transferred to the occupants bodies.
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That 5th Gear crash test is still shocking to watch. It completely altered my opinion on safety and older cars. As Jocko says, things have moved on a lot. I thought my old Saab 900 and 9000 were safe, and compared to their competitors at the time they probably were, but they wouldn't do well in an NCAP test today.
The 08-15 Jazz is an NCAP 5 star. It might be lower today due to collision avoidance gubbins not being standard fitment, but I would say its a safe car.
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I saw the aftermath of a rear end shunt between a newish and old car. What was noticeable was the amount of 'rust dust' on the road under the old car .
Maybe they get weaker with age.
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The 08-15 Jazz is an NCAP 5 star. It might be lower today due to collision avoidance gubbins not being standard fitment, but I would say its a safe car.
Now it woluld be a 1 or 2 Ncap stars, for collision avoidance gubbins not standard and for body strength: now side and frontal crashes are more severe.
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Another page explaining the I-MMD system.
https://www.marklines.com/en/report_all/rep1257_201402#report_area_2
It's about an Accord Hybrid, so the first generation of the I-mmd (Jazz should have the 3° generation), anyway I found it very interesting.
Thanks. Looking up the names of some of the parts manufacturers has found some useful info about the battery characteristics such as this https://www.blue-energy.co.jp/en/products/ (https://www.blue-energy.co.jp/en/products/). It doesn't mention the 2020 Jazz so maybe it's either not been updated or Honda has changed supplier to get something even better.
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2008-2015 is a wide range. They're changed sth between 2013 and 2015. Have a look at the small overlap tests in the US. Small overlap = 20%. It's a hard test but the better one than the Euro NCAP.
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2008-2015 is a wide range. They're changed sth between 2013 and 2015. Have a look at the small overlap tests in the US. Small overlap = 20%. It's a hard test but the better one than the Euro NCAP.
The single small overlap test is not better but different. USDM Fit have different bumper frame and airbags compared to EUDM Jazz, they must* complain more test (IIHS, NTHS) than Europe or Japan or Australia or South America.
*this verb is not the best choice: IIHS, Euroncap, LatinNcap, ANcap, JNcap are not used for approval tests.
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Now it woluld be a 1 or 2 Ncap stars, for collision avoidance gubbins not standard and for body strength: now side and frontal crashes are more severe.
Do you know this or is it anecdotal? I would be interested if it is genuine.
I know crash testing moves on, but I look at the NCAP information and video for 08-15 Jazz and it looks good. I do know however that the Fiat Panda 2011 was NCAP 4 star, but in 2018 was 0 star.
In any event, the best safety device in any car is its driver. The safest car in the world wont help you if you drive like a fool. I have passed advanced driving tests and concentrate on what I am doing, so on that basis I consider my Jazz a safe place to be! :D
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Now it woluld be a 1 or 2 Ncap stars, for collision avoidance gubbins not standard and for body strength: now side and frontal crashes are more severe.
Do you know this or is it anecdotal? I would be interested if it is genuine.
I know crash testing moves on, but I look at the NCAP information and video for 08-15 Jazz and it looks good. I do know however that the Fiat Panda 2011 was NCAP 4 star, but in 2018 was 0 star.
In any event, the best safety device in any car is its driver. The safest car in the world wont help you if you drive like a fool. I have passed advanced driving tests and concentrate on what I am doing, so on that basis I consider my Jazz a safe place to be! :D
Tested today with actual test protocols a 2012 Jazz would surely reach no more than 2 euroncap stars, to be honest 2 stars would be a very good and lucky result.
This because its chassis was not designed to pass:
-the frontal full width 50km/h crash;
-the frontal 40% overlap crash with a soft trolley of 1400kg standard weight;
-the side crash considering much more parameters (some of them needing a sidebag put between drive and passenger) for adults and children;
-the rear crash whiplash for rear passengers;
-and so on: euroncap datasheets are clear about this https://cdn.euroncap.com/media/47807/euroncap-2015-honda-jazz-datasheet.pdf and https://cdn.euroncap.com/media/7449/euroncap_honda_jazz_2009_5stars.pdf
We must consider that manufacturers do not design their cars to be safe or to be clean: they design them to meet legal and commercial parameters current in a specific year and in a specific market and nothing more because it would be expensive in the assembly line. Cars for USDM markets must meet a roof strength test to protect driver and passengers from rollover damages, so cars built to be sold in the USDM have A, B and C pillars more robust than cars sold in Europe.
Here you can see rear bumper parts of a USDM 2017 Fit, https://www.hondapartsnow.com/parts-list/2018-honda-fit--5dr_ex-ka_6mt/interior_bumper/rear_bumper.html
and this is the same part chart of an european Jazz: https://www.parts-honda.uk/honda-cars/JAZZ/2017/14-EXECUTIVE/UPHOLSTERY/REAR-BUMPER/30747/B4650/5/30747
As you can see the nr° 7 beam in the USDM Fit is missing in the european Jazz, this because Euroncap never tests rear crashes, they only test seats performance about whiplash.
If you check other parts, you will see that the front beam of the USDM Fit will be different from EUDM Jazz, as front driver bag and sidebags: this because of the small overlap test, so we can say that USDM Fit drivers will be more protected than european ones in a crash very similar to the small overlap. No driver will probably be weel protected in a crash with 45° angle, because no nCAP test, USA, EU, AU or latin, is moving manufacturers to well perform in this performance.
So if you see a 2012 Fiat Panda with 0 stars if tested in 2018 (and with 4 or 5 stars when tested in 2012), feel sure that every other mass production car designed in the same period will behave in the same way.
So we must say that a car will be safe only considering the specific test well performed: other fields are not considered in the design so probably the car will perform bad.
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The younger the car/platform the better it should perform in a crash test.
Cars which were designed before 2000 all fail today's tests.
If you're lucky the car scores better with a facelift but not by much.
There are car makers with a history of low/minimum safety like Fiat.
When the 8th gen Civic suddenly gained 120 kg weight it was all due to safety reasons. You don't want have a crash in on of the former gen Civics. Worst Honda of all was the CRX. These fun to drive 'rolling coffins'.
Have a look how far back the driver sits in the new Jazz, even though it's a pretty small car. Also notice how narrow both front passengers sit which needed an airbag between them.
Regarding the driver. I can drive as safely as I want, it's the idiot that crashes into me who wants me having a safe car. :)
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Tested today with actual test protocols a 2012 Jazz would surely reach no more than 2 euroncap stars, to be honest 2 stars would be a very good and lucky result.
This because its chassis was not designed to pass:
-the frontal full width 50km/h crash;
-the frontal 40% overlap crash with a soft trolley with standard weight;
-the side crash considering much more parameters (some of them needing a sidebag put between drive and passenger) for adults and children;
-the rear crash for rear passengers;
-and so on: euroncap datasheets are clear about this https://cdn.euroncap.com/media/47807/euroncap-2015-honda-jazz-datasheet.pdf and https://cdn.euroncap.com/media/7449/euroncap_honda_jazz_2009_5stars.pdf
We must consider that manufacturers do not design their cars to be safe or to be clean: they design them to meet legal and commercial parameters current in a specific year and in a specific market and nothing more because it would be expensive in the assembly line. Cars for USDM markets must meet a roof strength test to protect driver and passengers from rollover damages, so cars built to be sold in the USDM have A, B and C pillars more robust than cars sold in Europe.
Here you can see rear bumper parts of a USDM 2017 Fit, https://www.hondapartsnow.com/parts-list/2018-honda-fit--5dr_ex-ka_6mt/interior_bumper/rear_bumper.html
and this is the same part chart of an european Jazz: https://www.parts-honda.uk/honda-cars/JAZZ/2017/14-EXECUTIVE/UPHOLSTERY/REAR-BUMPER/30747/B4650/5/30747
As you can see the nr° 7 beam in the USDM Fit is missing in the european Jazz, this because Euroncap never tests rear crashes, they only test seats performance about whiplash.
If you check other parts, you will see that the front beam of the USDM Fit will be different from EUDM Jazz, as front driver bag and sidebags: this because of the small overlap test, so we can say that USDM Fit drivers will be more protected than european ones in a crash very similar to the small overlap. No driver will probably be weel protected in a crash with 45° angle, because no nCAP test, USA, EU, AU or latin, is moving manufacturers to well perform in this performance.
So if you see a 2012 Fiat Panda with 0 stars if tested in 2018 (and with 4 or 5 stars when tested in 2012), feel sure that every other mass production car designed in the same period will behave in the same way.
So we must say that a car will be safe only considering the specific test well performed: other fields are not considered in the design so probably the car will perform bad.
Wow, very detailed reply! Every day is a school day as the expression has it.
I genuinely had no idea that car manufacturers built the body of their cars to differing specification safety wise for different markets. I now knowwhy given the info referenced, but I assumend a Jazz here was the same everywhere. I know they fit different trim levels and equipment relevant to the market to be sold in however.
Stay safe whatever you drive! :D
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I always remember that 'unsafe at any speed' where one item highlighted, that used to be common on a lot of cars, was the ignition key in the dash by your right knee.
Because the key was sticking out, end on, it would slice your kneecap in half in serious shunts.....nice !
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I always remember that 'unsafe at any speed' where one item highlighted, that used to be common on a lot of cars, was the ignition key in the dash by your right knee.
Because the key was sticking out, end on, it would slice your kneecap in half in serious shunts.....nice !
I have had four Saab cars, and they have all had the key in the centre near the handbrake. Very safe.
I note some cars these days, and Im thinking here of BMW's, have a slot higher up the dash for the key fob to be inserted and a starter button to start. I suppose it is safer than having a key right by your knee.
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I have had four Saab cars, and they have all had the key in the centre near the handbrake. Very safe.
I note some cars these days, and Im thinking here of BMW's, have a slot higher up the dash for the key fob to be inserted and a starter button to start. I suppose it is safer than having a key right by your knee.
Key fobs have been moved upwards since first years of this century, when Euroncap started to test cars highlighting problems for knees. Start buttons are no more a safety trick, they are used mainly for confort.
Also pedal assemblies and dashboard beams have been modified as to be less dangerous for our legs: first 5star cars were full of soft plastic cushions placed between panels and dash beams.