Brake Problems (GD Sport)

[SuperCNJ]

Afternoon chaps, my wife has a 2005 1.4 GD Sport. A few months ago there were two occasions when we experienced a strange judder from the brake pedal and the ABS light came on. On one occasion it was just pulling off from stationary and there was a bit of a shiver from the front. I had a mechanic friend have a look and he couldn’t find anything wrong with it.

Anyway, it hasn’t happened again since and we’ve just forgotten about it.

Before this happened, I remember driving the Jazz and thinking to myself that the brakes weren’t really responding very well. I would press on the brake hard and it just didn’t seem to slow the car down very quickly. But when I spoke to my wife about it (she uses it every day for work), she didn’t think there was a problem, so again I left it.

A couple of nights ago, on my way back from dropping my son off at his nans, I thought I’d test the brakes on a quiet and relatively dry road (2k mile old tyres). I stepped on the brake with firm but steady pressure and it was obvious the brakes weren’t biting very well. It was as though there’s not much friction in the pads/discs. I tried again but this time I did a full emergency stop. I tried to stop the car from 30 as quickly as I could… I pressed the pedal very very hard, probably as hard as I could – still nothing. ABS did not engage and I couldn’t get the tyres to skid. I’m convinced there is something not right but can’t put my finger on it. The car drives fine and normal braking seems ok.

I’m going to take it to Honda to have it checked out but before I do, I was wondering if anyone else has come across this problem and also if there are any recommendations for better pads and discs than the OEM ones? I can fit these myself and save myself a few £££.

[JazzyB]

Have you checked the brake pads and discs?

Sounds like they are worn badly.....

[SuperCNJ]

Have you checked the brake pads and discs?

Sounds like they are worn badly.....

I haven't. But will do this weekend... does anyone know how to measure pads and discs? I have a set of vernier calipers.

I don't remember the MOT saying anything about the brakes being worn/near worn back in the summer, but might be wrong. I'll check.

Anyone recommend better pads/discs than the OEM ones?

[madasafish]

I suspect badly corroded slides, pins and partially seized pads..  due to neglect.

It is usually good treatment to check them annually to ensure free movement , and strip/clean and use brake grease on the sliding surfaces..if there is not.

Scores on disks, uneven wear and large scale corrosion means replacement.

Uneven pad wear, delamination or thickness under 5mm = new pads.

I would use standard pads as replacement.

[culzean]

thickness under 5mm = new pads.

if the rubber concertina gaiters on the compensating slide rod is damaged or out of position then water gets onto bearings and causes problems.  Always check these gaiters are in good condition and in place when working on brakes.

Haynes manual quotes 1.6mm as minimum thickness for pad material, and that is the depth the wear alarm contact is set to activate at, they are about 10mm thick when new and I normally replace when they get below 3mm.  To replace them when there is still 2 or 3mm of wear left is to throw quite a few miles of motoring away.

when I had my tyres replaced just before last Winter the tyre guys told me that pads needed replacing,  I checked them when I got home and there was a good 6mm left on the material (why do they keep trying that old trick on ?),  I have done at least 20K since then and last time I looked they was still at least 4mm left.  At present rate of wear I will be replacing them when weather warms up a bit in Spring, well over 25K after they told me they needed replacing.

[SuperCNJ]

^^^ Thanks guys, much appreciated!

I had a quick look at her MOT certificate last night and they did say that the rear pads needed replacing soon. I've just ordered a set of OEM ones which I will have changed asap. But what I'm confused about is on my last car (Civic Type-R) the brake bias was so far to the front, that the rear brakes were hardly working at all. Something like 95% front, 5% rear. And this was consistent with what I found when replacing the brakes pads on the civic, I only need to replace the rear pads for the first time at about 50k miles. The Jazz has only done about 40k miles and if it has similar brake bias I would have thought that even if the rears were worn, it wouldn't have such a significant effect on reducing the brake force? Or would it? The front pads have plenty of life left as they were only changed in January (about 6-7k miles old).

Does anyone know what the minimum disc thicknesses are for the front and rear discs?

[DV]

You might had a problem with your front brakes if it had to be changed at 6-7k miles or you drove a lot in town or change your driving style (not to brake hard in the last moments... )
My front brake set last 95817miles 75% on motorway driving before I changed it and it was the adhesive type (not abrasive as some others) with Ferodo FDB777 pads.
If you want the best quality brakes buy from Honda (some Honda dealers are on eBay or online might give discount).

The minimum thickness for the front disk is 19mm and 8mm for the rear, the new should be 21mm and 9mm.
I`ve got the info from here: link.

[SuperCNJ]

You might had a problem with your front brakes if it had to be changed at 6-7k miles or you drove a lot in town or change your driving style (not to brake hard in the last moments... )
My front brake set last 95817miles 75% on motorway driving before I changed it and it was the adhesive type (not abrasive as some others) with Ferodo FDB777 pads.
If you want the best quality brakes buy from Honda (some Honda dealers are on eBay or online might give discount).

The minimum thickness for the front disk is 19mm and 8mm for the rear, the new should be 21mm and 9mm.
I`ve got the info from here: link.

Thanks, what I meant was, the front brakes were changed at around 35k miles, which was about 6-7k miles ago... so they are still relatively new. Most of our driving is around town and my wife very rarely brakes very hard - which is why she hasn't notice that the brakes aren't very good when you press hard on the pedal.

What were the Ferrodo pads like compared to the OEM honda ones?

Also, so I guess when you have a lip of 1.5-2mm on the disc, they are pretty much gone and need replacing?

[DV]

I know Honda (as a set) sells one of the best one for day-to-day use.
When I had the Ferodo pads I had "Brake engineering" branded disks and it was not as good as the Honda one, the breaking was not that fierce. Currently I`ve fitted a Brembo set on the front and as long as its cold I had to break harder but still not as fierce as the Honda one. If I keep my car as long as the Brembo wears out I`ll go back to the Honda`s set.

If the lip is over 1mm on each side (at the front) than you have already hit the limit because the disk thickness 21mm -19mm gives you 2mm wearing which is 1mm/side and the same goes for the rear which is 0.5mm/side.

[culzean]

The OEM brake components on any car have been engineered for the performance and weight of the car and the expected use.  No good fitting super track-day pads and discs to a fairly low performance city car if they don't work very well until they get hot.  I agree with DV that the Honda parts are best ones for the car,  and have tried some other pads and disc combinations and been very disappointed.

manufacturers of brake pads have had to contend with not being able to use some of the best materials because they are banned by EU law-makers.  Same with car paint, which has had all the VOC's (volatile organic compounds) taken out and is now water based.  Discs probably corrode more now because Chrome and other stuff is taken out.

[SuperCNJ]

Ok, I've just had a look at the pads. The front and rear seem to be fine, but there seems to be a 1mm lip on the front discs. I know they need replacing now, but I'm wondering if this would actually reduce the brake performance significantly?

After reading a lot of reviews, it seems that Pagid discs and pads are quite good and are OEM for BMW (I have a 1-series) so given they're less than half the price of Honda discs I've just gone and ordered some 258 x 21 x (64.2 Centre Dia) Pagid discs... but I'm sticking with the Honda pads, which I've also just ordered. Hopefully this will help.

This is how the pads look currently....

Front:


Rear:

[golfer]

when was your brake fluid last changed? as this is often neglected ,it will deteriorate and the symptoms are very much as you describe

[SuperCNJ]

when was your brake fluid last changed? as this is often neglected ,it will deteriorate and the symptoms are very much as you describe

We bought the car second hand when it was around 23k miles and it's now at about 45k and as far as I know, has never been changed in our ownership - unless it is done routinely as part of Honda servicing as I've never questioned what they say is necessary.

Can the brake fluid deteriorate and does it reduce brake performance significantly or does it just make it feel more spongey?

[culzean]

Ok, I've just had a look at the pads. The front and rear seem to be fine, but there seems to be a 1mm lip on the front discs. I know they need replacing now, but I'm wondering if this would actually reduce the brake performance significantly?

After reading a lot of reviews, it seems that Pagid discs and pads are quite good and are OEM for BMW (I have a 1-series) so given they're less than half the price of Honda discs I've just gone and ordered some 258 x 21 x (64.2 Centre Dia) Pagid discs... but I'm sticking with the Honda pads, which I've also just ordered. Hopefully this will help.

rust on the edge of disc can cause lip to look worse than it is (steel increases in volume when it oxidises) so you can't really judge by 'depth' of lip - only way to measure disc thickness is with a micrometer or digital caliper, but can be hard to get it in. - i have run discs below minimum thickness before without a problem as the spec for minimum thickness is very conservative. 

one thing i would say about mixing discs and pads from different makers is that the disc and pad materials are designed to work together, and there are as many alloys of disc material as there are brake pad compounds.

[culzean]

Can the brake fluid deteriorate and does it reduce brake performance significantly or does it just make it feel more spongey?

brake fluid will absorb moisture, and this lowers the boiling point - you may never know unless you do repeated heavy braking or drive down a big mountain and brakes get really hot - then the water in caliper pistons changes to steam and forms bubbles in the fluid - unlike the fluid, these bubbles are compressible and will seriously reduce braking performance.   99% of the time 99% of drivers will never heat the brakes up enough for this to be a problem.  The water in brake fluid can also cause the system to corrode internally, which is probably a good enough reason not to leave it in more than 5 years.  I've never changed mine less than 5 years and haven't experienced a problem - but always replace with a good quality branded fluid.