Noisy in neutral.

[riffler]

I have a 1.4 5 door EX, petrol, reg on 5/4/12, which had 4k on the clock at purchase and is now just over 10k.

In neutral, if you declutch, there is very little engine noise but let the clutch in and there's a distinct whirring sound which doesn't go away. This is quite noisy.

The guy who does my servicing said there's a poss problem with the release bearing, or layshaft bearing and suggested I asked the dealer to investigate.

The showroom guy had a listen and said "it shouldn't do that" and asked the technician over.

The technician said " thrust bearing, they all do that, not much point in replacing as a new one will make the same noise in 6mths time, I'll ask the mgr about what to do, maybe honda will put a track on it".

Has anyone else had this problem?

Also, I feel there is a small shudder sometimes when 1st/2nd gear engages, particularly when cold or going up an incline. Are the 2 things related?

The warranty expires 5/4/15.

Thanks
Steve

[culzean]

I'd be surprised if it is layshaft bearing in a GE, and anyway the gearbox bearing only makes a noise when car is actually moving in lower 3 gears and an end thrust is applied by helical gears taking a load, and is in any case more likely to make a noise with clutch in if car is in gear.

Could be the thrust bearing,  but whatever you do make sure you notify dealer service manager about your problem in letter or email as this is the best way to log that the fault existed before warranty expires.  The dealer may be stringing you along till warranty expires and then you will have to pay for work to be done.

The previous owner may have let foot rest on clutch pedal while driving (meaning thrust bearing was rotating with light pressure on all the time) or may have been riding the clutch to save knocking out of gear and putting handbrake on,  and this can cause problems even at very low mileage.

[guest907]

I get a small (but noticeable) amount of clutch judder first thing in the morning. Usually only first few gear changes goes as it starts to warm up.

Never bothered complaining about it...replace clutch probably be the same and caused no problems in 50K miles.

[culzean]

Never had a noisy clutch release thrust bearing on any Honda I have had,  don't be fobbed off - it simply shouldn't make a noise,  and if they fit a new one you will be OK for a long time providing you don't drive with foot resting on clutch pedal or ride the clutch instead of putting handbrake on.  I have never had to have clutch replaced in any of my cars despite doing a lot of miles. Clutch just needs treating with a bit of sympathy - it does a hard and very important job.  Local mileage is another thing that is hard on clutches,  with frequent stop-start and gear changes.

[guest4078]

I'm +1 with culzean. Description doesn't sound like gearbox, tell them to sort the clutch out before the warranty expires. I have never heard a noisy Honda clutch when normally driven. Don't let them mess you about. If 'they all all do that' let him take you out in half a dozen and demonstrate that they all do - I bet they won't.

[Rory]

I get a small (but noticeable) amount of clutch judder first thing in the morning. Usually only first few gear changes goes as it starts to warm up.

Never bothered complaining about it...replace clutch probably be the same and caused no problems in 50K miles.

Yep, same here.  Our last Jazz did it and this one does it too.  I read somewhere that it's condensation on the flywheel, which seems feasible.

[degzi]

Hmmm. Sorry to hijack, what would a click sound be when you change gear and get to the biting point. There's no gearbox whining and it only does it on mine just after biting point. It is literally one loudish click but not all the time.

[plasma]

I get a small (but noticeable) amount of clutch judder first thing in the morning. Usually only first few gear changes goes as it starts to warm up.

Never bothered complaining about it...replace clutch probably be the same and caused no problems in 50K miles.

Yep, same here.  Our last Jazz did it and this one does it too.  I read somewhere that it's condensation on the flywheel, which seems feasible.

+1, Plasma.

[riffler]

Does anyone know who the Honda CEO in Japan is, or how to contact them?
Still have issues with this.

Thanks
Steve

[guest5589]

Does anyone know who the Honda CEO in Japan is, or how to contact them?
Still have issues with this.

Thanks
Steve

I think you will have better luck contacting HondaUK.

[riffler]

Thanks but I am part way down that route.

Crown in Kings Lynn were reluctant to replace the CRB as they said noise from a CRB was not unusual.
They asked Honda UK if they could replace the bearing.
Initially HUK said "No" but a week later I was told they had changed their mind.

The CRB was replaced. For a day the bearing was quiet, then the noise crept back.

I took the car back to Crown in Kings Lynn 48hrs after they replaced the bearing to tell them the noise was still there.
The response I got was "well we said that might happen and there is nothing else we can do".

I then spent several months driving the car listening to the bearing noise increase.

Eventually I contacted Honda UK asking if I could expect a CRB to be noisy, they said they had no knowledge of that.
They went back to Crown who said they felt they had done all they could to cure the problem and could do no more.

Honda UK then invited me to take my Jazz to another dealer for a second opinion, if I was unhappy.

I took it to Holdens in Norwich where a master tech sat in the car for a few mins and said "its the Input shaft bearing, we replaced quite a lot of these on older cars but its unusual in a 2012 car with 22k on the clock. Why did Crown replace the CRB?"
To which I could only shrug.

Crown say this issue was CRB when they saw the car and that Holden didn't hear the noise at that time.
The CRB was replaced under warranty but the noise persisted and they didn't offer to have the car back, or review in a few months time. As far as Crown was concerned, that was that.

Honda UK area aware of all of this.
I have had email contact with 2 x customer service folk and one phone call from customer service yesterday.

In this call, she said she was aware of all the issues and had spoken with both dealers and her managers.
Their offer was to pay for the bearing but I would have to pay the labour costs!!

I said I wasn't happy with this but asked what the labour costs might be.
I am waiting for a response now.

Meanwhile I understand I can get free legal advice from the Civil Service Motoring Association.

Also, I have spoken to a Norfolk independent Honda specialist.
I described the symptoms, he concluded input shaft bearing too.
He said there were a lot of these faulty bearings on older models of the Jazz but it was rare in later models. He said previous jobs have been £450 to £750 to put right. They take out the gearbox and take it to a gear specialist to replace the bearing. Part of the job involves putting in a new clutch, as they would be unhappy to refit the old one (I have a small amount of clutch judder in 1st and 2nd) This guy was very helpful and I was grateful for his advice.

I am thinking....

1. Getting CSMA legal advice.
2. Asking Honda UK CEO for their view on this.
3. Taking it to Honda Japan (or should that be Honda USA?)
4. Parking outside dealership with large placard along lines of "Thinking of buying a Jazz? You might have a £XXX gearbox repair bill in 3 to 4 years time with no redress".

I am retired now and have plenty of time on my hands

Any views folks?

Cheers
Steve

[guest5589]

Thanks but I am part way down that route.

Crown in Kings Lynn were reluctant to replace the CRB as they said noise from a CRB was not unusual.
They asked Honda UK if they could replace the bearing.
Initially HUK said "No" but a week later I was told they had changed their mind.

The CRB was replaced. For a day the bearing was quiet, then the noise crept back.

I took the car back to Crown in Kings Lynn 48hrs after they replaced the bearing to tell them the noise was still there.
The response I got was "well we said that might happen and there is nothing else we can do".

I then spent several months driving the car listening to the bearing noise increase.

Eventually I contacted Honda UK asking if I could expect a CRB to be noisy, they said they had no knowledge of that.
They went back to Crown who said they felt they had done all they could to cure the problem and could do no more.

Honda UK then invited me to take my Jazz to another dealer for a second opinion, if I was unhappy.

I took it to Holdens in Norwich where a master tech sat in the car for a few mins and said "its the Input shaft bearing, we replaced quite a lot of these on older cars but its unusual in a 2012 car with 22k on the clock. Why did Crown replace the CRB?"
To which I could only shrug.

Crown say this issue was CRB when they saw the car and that Holden didn't hear the noise at that time.
The CRB was replaced under warranty but the noise persisted and they didn't offer to have the car back, or review in a few months time. As far as Crown was concerned, that was that.

Honda UK area aware of all of this.
I have had email contact with 2 x customer service folk and one phone call from customer service yesterday.

In this call, she said she was aware of all the issues and had spoken with both dealers and her managers.
Their offer was to pay for the bearing but I would have to pay the labour costs!!

I said I wasn't happy with this but asked what the labour costs might be.
I am waiting for a response now.

Meanwhile I understand I can get free legal advice from the Civil Service Motoring Association.

Also, I have spoken to a Norfolk independent Honda specialist.
I described the symptoms, he concluded input shaft bearing too.
He said there were a lot of these faulty bearings on older models of the Jazz but it was rare in later models. He said previous jobs have been £450 to £750 to put right. They take out the gearbox and take it to a gear specialist to replace the bearing. Part of the job involves putting in a new clutch, as they would be unhappy to refit the old one (I have a small amount of clutch judder in 1st and 2nd) This guy was very helpful and I was grateful for his advice.

I am thinking....

1. Getting CSMA legal advice.
2. Asking Honda UK CEO for their view on this.
3. Taking it to Honda Japan (or should that be Honda USA?)
4. Parking outside dealership with large placard along lines of "Thinking of buying a Jazz? You might have a £XXX gearbox repair bill in 3 to 4 years time with no redress".

I am retired now and have plenty of time on my hands

Any views folks?

Cheers
Steve

Hey Steve, sorry to hear about your struggle. I am sure more experienced members on here will be able to better advise you but to my untrained ears it sounds like the first dealership misdiagnosed the issue in the first place and yes only 2002-2008 first Gen cars suffered the Input shaft bearing noise issue which were replaced under warranty for upto 7 years in extreme cases.

Looking at forums you will find that at the time those who got the bearings replaced paid about £1200+ for the work but looking at the invoice that came with my car the bearing work was done for £700 including a new clutch kit so I don't think it should cost a lot to get them replaced. Bearings themselves are £100 or so from Honda so labour cost is the main expense. I recently investigated getting this work done on a car I was after and £300-£500 was the average quote from small independent specialist because it is such as well known fault on MK1.

Honda techs are well trained to replace the bearings themselves and the 'we will take to specialist' is just a ploy to tell you how expensive this work is. You might have done it already but can you not try and push HUK and tell them first dealership replaced the wrong part due to their incompetence so why should you pay for the actual work.

Keep us updated and someone on here will give you a much more detailed advice.

[riffler]

2 x conversations this morning with a nice young lady at Honda UK.
She is from Customer Services there but the content felt more like that of an insurance company loss adjuster to me.

I asked for an email summary, which is as follows....


"Thank you for contacting Honda (UK).

Reference our earlier telephone communications reference your Input Shaft Bearing issue. Based on the experience you have received from Crown Honda, Here at Honda (UK) have offered a good will to your self of payment in full of the parts and a further 3 hours of labour towards the repair. The car is out of warranty and therefore we cannot cover this in full due to specific parameters set and your request for payment in full of the repair is outside of our parameters. Whilst i can appreciate your frustration that your original issue was not rectified within the warranty period, however our warranty terms are very black & white and when the warranty ends there is no grace period as to any issues being covered.

If you do wish to take this up with Crown Honda who diagnosed your car originally and ask them to contribute towards the repair then this is something you would need to discuss with them directly, Your vehicle is now out of warranty and this goodwill contribution is above and beyond what we would normally cover for a customer as we do not normally contribute towards any labour costs at all.
Should you wish to go ahead with this repair you would need to get booked in with Holden Honda for this to be completed.

The total cost to yourself should you wish to go ahead would be £284.58 Inc VAT.
You also enquired about replacement of the clutch whilst the Gear-box is removed if you would like this to be replaced also the additional cost to yourself would be £255.49 Inc VAT.

If you are not happy with the decision we have made then i would suggest getting some independent advice from a company call Motor codes, They are the trading standard for the motor industry. They can be contacted on 0843 910 9000.

If you have any further questions please feel free to contact me.


Kind Regards,
XXXXXXX"


I have emailed Crown garage, forwarding her comments.....




"Please see the reply below received from a very helpful young lady at Honda UK.

Having spoken this morning with an independent Honda dealer, it seems they are familiar with Jazz input shaft bearing failure. Apparently it was common with older Jazz models but unusual in a 2012 car with only 22k mileage.
The dealer said they would not carry out IS bearing replacement without also providing a new clutch.
I also have an indication of what they would charge to carry out the work for me.

Whilst speaking with XXXXX today she detailed the offer that Honda UK was prepared to make, detailed below.
This is an improvement on yesterday's offer, which entailed Honda UK meeting the cost of the bearing (£30-£40?) and me meeting ALL of the labour costs.

Whilst speaking with XXXXX today she made no mention of clutch replacement but when I said I'd spoke with an independent dealer about this, she agreed it was good practice but not included in the offer
I asked her to find out what the cost of a new clutch would be. See below.

XXXX is aware that I am not happy about paying for repairs to my car.
This is the most I have ever paid for a car. I bought a good condition, low mileage, high spec Jazz but I seem to have ended up with something of a Pup.
One or two gearbox bearings failing within 3-4 years and 22k miles.

She is also aware that I am seeking legal advice via the Civil Service Motoring Association and that I intend to take this matter further.

It appears from her reply that I don't just have a Honda UK warranty issue here but also an issue with Crown garage.
This is news to me.

She has has suggested that I ask you for a contribution towards my costs.
I look forward to receiving your response, email preferred please.


Thank You"

Now waiting for their response.

Cheers
Steve

[John Ratsey]

This is the most I have ever paid for a car. I bought a good condition, low mileage, high spec Jazz but I seem to have ended up with something of a Pup.

There is the risk that a very low mileage car will have been used for a daily trip to the shops and little more, with the result that the engine may have never warmed up properly and wear equivalent to many, many more miles. The clutch, gearbox and brakes would also be subject to similar disproportionate wear. The dealer should have been aware of this possibility.

My daughter bought a low mileage Mini a couple of years ago from our local Honda dealer and it went back several times to get things fixed (including new water pump, IIRC) but the dealer had given a 1 year warranty so the cost to my daughter was in inconvenience, not money.

[culzean]

This is the most I have ever paid for a car. I bought a good condition, low mileage, high spec Jazz but I seem to have ended up with something of a Pup.

There is the risk that a very low mileage car will have been used for a daily trip to the shops and little more, with the result that the engine may have never warmed up properly and wear equivalent to many, many more miles. The clutch, gearbox and brakes would also be subject to similar disproportionate wear. The dealer should have been aware of this possibility.

My daughter bought a low mileage Mini a couple of years ago from our local Honda dealer and it went back several times to get things fixed (including new water pump, IIRC) but the dealer had given a 1 year warranty so the cost to my daughter was in inconvenience, not money.

+1

I avoid really low mileage cars like the plague, as John rightly says they have been used for very short journeys, never warmed up properly and the oil has never got hot so never boils off the acidic water content that is released by combustion (may even have the dreaded 'white cream deposit' inside rocker cover and elsewhere),  this corrodes bearings and pistons.  Also exhaust system will be corroded and the EGR and CAT and injectors could well get blocked. 75% of engine wear takes place in first couple of miles.

There is also a distinct risk that the battery has never been fully charged and that is bad news as it may be sulphated up and will no longer accept or release a proper charge.  also if clutch has not been used regularly the plate can try to stick to flywheel (may even be rust present).

if the gearbox spends a lot of time in lower gears this can cause disproportionate wear on gears and bearings.
There is a lot of truth in the saying that 'motorway miles' are better for a car than local mileage.

I would never even hesitate to buy a modern car with 100K on the clock,  with modern engines and oils you would expect minimum 200K without problems.  And don't think FSH is worth any more than the paper it is written on.