Jazz/Fit Hybrid - official

[culzean]

I can't help thinking how much better hybrids would be if they were (generally) available with a manual gearbox instead of CVT. I had a Civic hybrid courtesy car when I took my Jazz in for a service and it spent a fair amount of time in a higher rev band then what I would in my (manual) Jazz.....unless it was down to my limited experience with automatics.

I think it must be down the whole petrol engine / electric motor relationship that makes it easier to manage the whole balancing act if an automatic gearbox is used, then the ECU has command of all the variables. I have a feeling that manual gearbox and motor/engine would be hard to control. There doesn't seem to be a manual gearbox option on the Toyota Prius.

[culzean]

I think it is somewhat selfish to be considering this in just short term financial gain - I had my last two cars converted to LPg because I believed it was better for emissions.  However hybrid cars offer an even cleaner solution and I think this is good enough a reason to consider one. I would have had the Jazz converted to LPG but I would have lost too much of the load space.

I have to ask the question if you would have still used LPG if it was the same price or dearer than petrol?

I cannot see the sense in blindly buying hybrids if they cost a lot more and show very little gain in fuel efficiency - the Prius is a good example (apart from congestion charge and road tax benefits -which are down to government policy -  it is not that much more fuel efficient than a Jazz, and is far more complicated and demanding on raw materials and manufacturing resources). We are being asked to pay more for absolutely everything under the banner of 'stopping' climate change - when the real reason the planet is under stress is that there are just far too many people on it for it to sustain - but it's very non-PC to talk about that!

[guest1626]

I've recently just plonked down £21k for a brand new Toyota Auris HSD T-Spirit (which is their top of the range hybrid Auris with part leather seats, cruise, bluetooth, keyless entry/start/lock, usb, rear camera etc), and I added DAB and privacy glass too.  We have a 2003 CVT Jazz which is still going strong, but we needed a 2nd car now that my wife drives our daughter to school.

We looked at the current Jazz, in-fact I had one for a week on loan, but I soon found I didn't like changing back to a manual car after the ease of driving the CVT in stop/start traffic.  So my top considerations were auto gearbox, high milage and low CO2, along with those things reliability is key and gadgets always are high up there on my list.

I didn't like the sound of the I-Shift, I didn't even attempt to test drive one since I heard they are re-introducing the CVT late this year.  So that made the Jazz CVT or even now this Hybrid a bit too far off, I needed a new car now.  I looked at just about everything that comes with an auto option and found without exception that once you went automatic all the nice figures for the CO2 and 0-62 speeds didn't apply, even the mpg from auto diesels took a large hit compared to their manual variants.

When review sites compare cars they very rarely think about the automatic options, and if thats your main consideration then the field changes a lot from what the reviewers say.  I even went and ordered a CR-Z which I later cancelled because all the compromises I was making just didn't sit right in the end (although if they had the CVT one in the UK I probably would have still got one over the Auris).

Once I gave up on the sportscar styling option (CR-Z) I went back at looking at the normal hatchbacks and was blown away by the Auris HSD specs.  It ticked all the right boxes apart from the colour choices (6 colours and 2 of those are white), and I'm quite used to driving an average looking car (Jazz).  The MP3 support via USB and BT did everything I hoped for, I could control the tracks on the steering wheel even over bluetooth audio, and the seating position and ride were very similar to the Jazz.  I really enjoyed the test drive also, managed to really test the brakes and motorway driving.  I managed to get over £1100 off the list price from my closest dealer which wasn't bad for a car only released in July 2010.

Anyway this is turning into a bit of a long story but basically I was very happy to go Hybrid because when matched with CVT it just blew any other auto boxes out of the water for CO2/MPG, and still had a respectable 11.4s 0-62 time, and having both the petrol and electric motors working together made it feel nippy (in PWR mode at least).  It adds quite a bit of weight and steals 30% of your boot but those were not things that worried me.  Having 8 years warranty on the battery also helped for adopting the technology, I was annoyed with Honda for reducing the CR-Z IMA warranty to 5 years (same for their other Hybrids starting from 2011).

[culzean]

Here is a snippet (a very telling one!) from a test / review on the Toyota Auris HSD Spirit - - - - I have read previous road tests on the Prius with much the same comments and in one test the Prius was soundly beaten by a BMW diesel in all modes except city, (and how long will the battery charge last if constantly used in the city without the re-charge opportunities provided by open road?)

For the record we have two 59 reg Prius company 'pool' cars and no-one likes driving them, even after the 'Prius driving course' that is obligatory before using them.

(http://www.carkeys.co.uk/road_tests/toyota/toyota_auris_hybrid_t_spirit.aspx)

"Now, before we get too excited about all this, it's worth remembering that official economy figures are not necessarily a reliable guide to how much fuel you will actually use. During this test I managed around 55mpg - more in some driving conditions, less in others, but never far away from that - and to be honest I thought that was pretty good. Some similarly-sized diesels could have done the same on a long and not very challenging run, though they would definitely have lost ground in the city, where the Auris HSD can operate in fully-electric mode for a while if there's enough charge in the battery.

This would be a great time to say that I achieved 55mpg or so without even trying to drive economically, and that I could certainly have got nearer the official figure if I'd tried. But I did try. I accelerated more gently than normal, and braked earlier. I also made much use of the "B" mode on the gear selector, which increases the motor's efficiency as a generator when the car isn't under power, and is a useful alternative to the brake pedal if you want either to reduce speed gradually or to maintain your pace while going downhill".

[guest1626]

I also made much use of the "B" mode on the gear selector, which increases the motor's efficiency as a generator when the car isn't under power, and is a useful alternative to the brake pedal if you want either to reduce speed gradually or to maintain your pace while going downhill".

This just shows how much misunderstanding there is around Hybrids and how to correctly drive them.  The B mode doesn't increase regenerative generation it decreases it.  It says this clearly in the manual for the HSD.  Engaging B mode adds real engine breaking to the existing regenerative generator, meaning less energy is captured back into the battery.  The mode is there if you are doing a particularly long descent and do not want to put excessive heat into the disc brakes or regenerative generators, and is also useful if the battery is full, in which case only the engine is used to slow the car.

If he made this simple mistake (ie, didn't read the manual) then I'm guessing he also did other things wrong during his attempt to maximise mpg.  For instance he might have been accelerating very slowly and coasting more to slow down (which is a perfectly acceptable method to add eco to a hybrid, and is what the eco buttons normally make you do by default), but it is quite a bit more efficient to briskly accelerate to a desired speed and then glide, not coast.

Petrol engines are more efficient accelerating at higher revs in less time, than using lower revs over longer time (more is lost in the transmission and other factors at low revs).  To enable glide mode on HSD you have to lightly press the accelerator to disengage coasting mode, but not enough to engage petrol power, which is effectively putting the car into neutral (but with the added benefit in a hybrid that the petrol engine isn't even ticking over).  The efficiency of maintaining the kinetic energy in the car vs transforming it into battery power is far higher (regenerative generators capture I believe anything between 25%-50% of your slowing energy, the rest is mostly lost to heat).

I don't intend to do any of the above when I get my HSD as I hate all that hypermiling crap, I am happy to just get very good MPG compared to another automatic car, driving normally.  Of the 2 competiting technologies (Petrol/Hybrid vs Diesel) I like the quiet, less polluting, cheaper to tax hybrid one.

[guest1626]

I cannot see the sense in blindly buying hybrids if they cost a lot more and show very little gain in fuel efficiency - the Prius is a good example (apart from congestion charge and road tax benefits -which are down to government policy -  it is not that much more fuel efficient than a Jazz, and is far more complicated and demanding on raw materials and manufacturing resources).

I don't see the "cost a lot more" argument.  I've recently had to compare like for like (in as much as possible) to get the car I want.  I didn't see any hybrid costs once the trims and options were factored in.  Just trying to find a fully automatic car which had decent mpg, CO2 and 0-62 times that are comparable to the Auris HSD is a challenge, then you have to normalise the comfort and ICE features.  Most of the other cars were actually more expensive (Golf, Volvo C30 to name a few).

I'm not saying this will be the same for the Jazz, but I'm expecting the Jazz Hybrid to come in a fair bit cheaper than the Auris because of the lower trim/options available, which is good as not everyone wants the comfort features.

[guest1626]

Well this is very interesting, the press release for the Honda Jazz Hybrid came out just days before the Congestion Charge changes announcement (after the consultation period Boris held in August).

In the press release it states "free to travel in the London congestion charge zone".  Unfortunately Honda's Jazz Hybrid is (internally) measured to output 104g/km CO2, so starting from January 4th 2011 the Honda Jazz Hybrid will not be exempt from the CC zone.  If you can buy one before the end of December 2010 and you register it with TfL in time you can still get the Hybrid 100% discount for another 2 years, but if you miss the 24th December deadline, then you will pay the £10/day fee all other 101g+ cars will pay.

This is the same for the CR-Z, so if you have one get it registered now if you need to travel into central London more than once a year.

I do hope Honda manage to shave 4g off the emissions before its released in the UK, otherwise they'll be losing out on a bunch of SE England sales.  I think they need to move away from their mild hybrid tech and start putting in some ability to run on Electric only, even if its only for stop/start traffic.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/congestioncharging/17094.aspx#Nineplus

[guest1513]

The CR-Z can't run on battery only: it has a different cylinder head to the IMA, and lacks the ability to close all valves at the same time to aid regen by cutting pumping losses, which the Insight and Jazz hybrid can do.  They apparently use the iVtec function to do this. I presume they are still 2-valve 2 plug design as in the iDsi.

[DWF]

There is an online review of the hybrid here

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/260860/honda_jazz_hybrid.html?CMP=NLC-Newsletters&uid=686750725e730cf94598775298d1e810

[guest150]

£18k for a small car that doesn't even manage to get under 100g/km and only acheives around 60mpg? I think I'll be sticking with my 2007 SE for the foreseeable future. I'm very much an admirer of the first Jazz....it's an absolutely brilliantly designed little car that is probably the most innovative small car since the original MINI. However the new design is compromised and the £16-£18k price tag has finally killed off any inclination that I might buy another new Jazz.

[bill888]

What Car? review

http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/honda-jazz-hybrid-driven/254510

[RichardA]

What Car? review

http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/honda-jazz-hybrid-driven/254510

Interesting link.

And the hybrid won't even qualify for London congestion charge exception from January next year as the CO2 emissions are over 100g/km!

So who does Honda expect to buy this car?

[dogbiscuit]

I can't think that Honda will be expecting many sales of the Hybrid. And with the continued price rises across the Jazz range I suspect that sales of the other Jazz variants will take a hit as well.

2010 Honda sales are down 15% with VW up by 12% compared to last year. Perhaps Honda should have been working on a diesel engine for the Jazz.

As What Car? says about the Jazz Hybrid "...equivalent diesels are cheaper, more economical and pump out less CO2."

[eljuero]

I guess Europe is not main target market for hybrid Jazz. The competition is too big here. But it will be "numero uno" in Japan and rest of Asia for sure.

[dogbiscuit]

I guess Europe is not main target market for hybrid Jazz. The competition is too big here. But it will be "numero uno" in Japan and rest of Asia for sure.

You could be right, the hybrid being designed for the market in Japan and not Europe.

I didn't realise the Prius was Japan's most popular car with the Fit being second. However, the subsidy for eco-friendly cars has now ended so Honda's timing for a hybrid model may be a little late. Unless the end of the subsidy is related to the fact that there is now a Fit hybrid which would have resulted in a lot more subsidies.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11482583