Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 52317 times)

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1005 on: October 11, 2018, 09:50:55 AM »
The thing is the batteries in EV behave the same as the normal lead acid battery in your ICE car, but with other problems. When Lithium based batteries are kept fully charged it damages them ( they normally store some chemistries of lithium batteries at around 40% charged to prevent damage in storage and for longest shelf life, and as far as I am aware non are stored at 100%), if they are allowed to fully discharge you are looking at a brick and the cost of a new battery. The tales of 'batteries lasting 100,000 miles + in Taxis' are a bit misleading as if a battery is used regularly and kept within the top 50% of charge it extends its life ( just like lead acid, lithium batteries are sensitive to DoD, depth of discharge) - in early Tesla cars there were many tales of batteries failing 'bricking' due to car standing and not being used enough.  Tesla fitted cars with GPS tracking and could track the battery state remotely, if their system highlighted a problem they would often go out and take the car away in a closed lorry ( Rolls Royce would also use closed lorries as it was bad publicity to see one of their cars being taken away for repairs) and fix the problem,  but in early days misuse of battery was not covered in the warranty and a new battery was $40,000.

So just like normal ICE car lead acid batteries fail due to low mileage, lack of charging and overcharging, the EV batteries are the same.  Also in hot places the rate of battery charge has to be reduced or it will fatally damage the battery, and in cold places battery output is reduced --- and so it goes...

Car range is also based on traveling at 50 to 55mph as well,  tales of motorway speeds reducing range by 30%.   So a cold, wet day on a motorway is Tesla hell..
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 10:59:58 AM by culzean »
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Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1006 on: October 11, 2018, 11:17:21 AM »
Most EVs are software limited, to prevent the batteries full charging or discharging. 100% Is normally less than 90% of the ultimate charge. And fully discharged is well short of damaging discharged.
Charging is controlled to prevent overheating of the battery and the better systems have cooling and heating of the battery as required. It was the control of charging that lead to the Nissan "Chargegate" issues. The Leaf does not have active battery cooling.
Current batteries, and range of EVs, is probably perfectly adequate for the majority of users, as long as you have access to charging, and improving technology (battery and charging) will make that even better.
The likes of myself, who will have at home charging, and seldom do 100 miles in a day, will find current vehicles perfectly adequate, especially as they drop into the "affordable" range.

Kenneve

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1007 on: October 11, 2018, 12:35:05 PM »
I still think there are currently too many obstacles to keeping an EV on the road.
I still do roughly 10k miles a year, and I'm off to see my daughter in North Lincolnshire on Saturday, a round trip of about 250 miles. Yes, I suppose if the EV had an on-board charger, then I could plug in when I got there, but i guess Elf & Safety would not like mains leads lying around.
What has not been talked about much, is the extra load on the National Grid. They are already close to trouble in extra cold weather, without having 1000's of EVs to contend with, just have a look at the Gridwatch website on a cold frosty morning.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1008 on: October 11, 2018, 12:53:52 PM »
Most EVs are software limited, to prevent the batteries full charging or discharging. 100% Is normally less than 90% of the ultimate charge. And fully discharged is well short of damaging discharged.
Charging is controlled to prevent overheating of the battery and the better systems have cooling and heating of the battery as required. It was the control of charging that lead to the Nissan "Chargegate" issues. The Leaf does not have active battery cooling.
Current batteries, and range of EVs, is probably perfectly adequate for the majority of users, as long as you have access to charging, and improving technology (battery and charging) will make that even better.
The likes of myself, who will have at home charging, and seldom do 100 miles in a day, will find current vehicles perfectly adequate, especially as they drop into the "affordable" range.

Nissan have an algorithm that when new the battery only uses 50% of capacity, and as battery ages and capacity drop this % is increased to maintain range. As the % used increases it is a bit of a vicious circle that the more capacity that gets used the quicker the battery chemistry gets gets damaged. I believe Tesla and may be Nissan now have an 'emergency button' that lets people access the bit that does not normally get used, but as battery ages this 'reserve' gets smaller and smaller, and its use can damage battery.  Some second hand EV have batteries damaged by mis-use, the option is leasing the battery but that can cost more than some people spend on fuel every month anyway. There seems to be quite a few used EV for sale considering not that many are sold in real terms, wonder why ?  Nissan claim they did a poll of owners and majority of people would not go back to ICE after driving an EV, but sample size was only about 70, - lies, damned lies and poll results.....

Most of our families live about 40 miles away, a round trip of 80 miles (but very often roadworks and detours ), without top up charging that would be pushing into 'range anxiety' territory on a few small EV, especially in cold weather. We have just come back from Cornwall and that trip in run the mill EV would have needed 3 charge stops each way.  I will let the early adopters who love the novelty take the pain, and when things are sorted I will probably no longer be driving anyway.  Would maybe get a cheap EV as second car to leave on drive as a security device ( so crims thing someone at home) and for shopping, but not as a main car.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 01:05:07 PM by culzean »
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peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1009 on: October 11, 2018, 01:28:45 PM »
I still think there are currently too many obstacles to keeping an EV on the road.
I still do roughly 10k miles a year, and I'm off to see my daughter in North Lincolnshire on Saturday, a round trip of about 250 miles. Yes, I suppose if the EV had an on-board charger, then I could plug in when I got there, but i guess Elf & Safety would not like mains leads lying around.
What has not been talked about much, is the extra load on the National Grid. They are already close to trouble in extra cold weather, without having 1000's of EVs to contend with, just have a look at the Gridwatch website on a cold frosty morning.


I seriously considered a Nissan Leaf before I bought my current car. In fact I spent over 6 months chewing it over. I only do a third of the mileage you do but, during the consideration period, 2 or 3 trips came up that involved driving deep into what the EV fans call "charge point deserts." There were another 2 or 3 trips which would have been doable but a bit inconvenient. None of these trips were long enough to justify the hiring of an ICE car.


Oddly the Nissan Leaf is most people's idea of a broadly affordable EV but I have been amazed at how little attention has been given to the latest iteration of the Renault Zoe. 41 kwh battery in a small (Clio size) car and a genuine, no compromise 150 mile minimum range. It would do me but to get one without the battery lease is well north of 20,000 and there are vanishingly few available used.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1010 on: October 11, 2018, 01:50:14 PM »
What has not been talked about much, is the extra load on the National Grid. They are already close to trouble in extra cold weather, without having 1000's of EVs to contend with, just have a look at the Gridwatch website on a cold frosty morning.
Everyone seems to worry about this except the National Grid themselves, who tell us there is more than sufficient capacity.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1011 on: October 11, 2018, 01:59:28 PM »
Nissan claim they did a poll of owners and majority of people would not go back to ICE after driving an EV, but sample size was only about 70,
Owners who replace PHEVs, for the main part, replace them with BEVs. Again, not a huge sample size. Most PHEV owners feel they can cope with the limited range of a BEV after their experience with the Hybrid vehicle.

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1012 on: October 11, 2018, 03:17:50 PM »
What has not been talked about much, is the extra load on the National Grid. They are already close to trouble in extra cold weather, without having 1000's of EVs to contend with, just have a look at the Gridwatch website on a cold frosty morning.
Everyone seems to worry about this except the National Grid themselves, who tell us there is more than sufficient capacity.

I've read a bit about this and actually seen a National Grid senior bod interviewed by Robert Llewellyn on his Fully Charged show. The key seems to be that most EV's will be charged at night when demand on the grid is low.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1013 on: October 11, 2018, 03:34:57 PM »
Nissan claim they did a poll of owners and majority of people would not go back to ICE after driving an EV, but sample size was only about 70,
Owners who replace PHEVs, for the main part, replace them with BEVs. Again, not a huge sample size. Most PHEV owners feel they can cope with the limited range of a BEV after their experience with the Hybrid vehicle.

PHEV outselling BEV in UK by massive amount,  company cars will be PHEV ( who need a good range and are making use of plug in tax breaks) and BEV will be private purchases.  Sales of new BEV actually down this year after a peak in 2017.  If BEV get too popular there will be queues at limited charging stations. In most things the sales lead the infrastructure, which catches up later due to demand,  but with BEV the infrastructure has to come first before sales will rise. Up till now resale values of BEV have dropped faster than the proverbial lead balloon,  good news for used car buyers  but not original purchaser, and without people buying new there will not be any coming down into used car market.

https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news-analysis/3028279/is-2018s-electric-vehicle-sales-slump-just-a-bump-in-the-road

https://www.statista.com/statistics/310696/pure-electric-plug-in-cars-registered-in-the-united-kingdom/
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 04:34:40 PM by culzean »
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culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1014 on: October 11, 2018, 03:42:21 PM »
I've read a bit about this and actually seen a National Grid senior bod interviewed by Robert Llewellyn on his Fully Charged show. The key seems to be that most EV's will be charged at night when demand on the grid is low.

Lunar panels generating electricity ?  Wind often drops at night as well (when the sun, which drives the wind goes to bed).   

Off peak was OK when fossil fuels powered the power stations and they had to be kept running overnight because it took such a long time to shut them down and start them up that power companies could not do it ( that is where economy 7 came from ).  But now in the winter when you need power the most there is not much solar,  and plenty of cold windless days and nights in the winter.  Many industries run night shifts now as well, and storage heaters are being promoted again as 'clean heating' to replace dirty gas fired domestic boilers LOL.

https://www.fischerfutureheat.com/2017/03/effect-gas-central-heating-has-on-the-environment/
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 05:10:29 PM by culzean »
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Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1015 on: October 11, 2018, 05:12:30 PM »
Watched a video today, made by a guy who has had his Tesla Model 3 for 10,000 miles now. His running cost for fuel was just over $200, compared to just under $1400 dollars for the Pontiac G6 he replaced. Maintenance costs were zero.
That will be the biggest thing to get people switching.


John Ratsey

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1016 on: October 11, 2018, 05:42:18 PM »
Off peak was OK when fossil fuels powered the power stations and they had to be kept running overnight because it took such a long time to shut them down and start them up that power companies could not do it ( that is where economy 7 came from ).  But now in the winter when you need power the most there is not much solar,  and plenty of cold windless days and nights in the winter.  Many industries run night shifts now as well, and storage heaters are being promoted again as 'clean heating' to replace dirty gas fired domestic boilers LOL.
Nuclear is the main power source which, once started, is best kept running at close to full output until it needs to be shut down for inspection and maintenance. However, nuclear's share of UK's energy pie is shrinking and we might be pushing up daisies before more gets built. Tidal is another near-continouous energy source which the politicians keep backing way from.

You can get a feel for the daily variation in the market price for electricity by looking at the half-hourly rates for the Octopus Agile tariff https://octopus.energy/agile/ which includes a link to 12 months of half-hourly rates. Summer nights tend to be cheapest with winter nights no much lower than the day rates (perhaps the above-mentioned off-peak heating demand).

When I'm next vehicle shopping I'll be examining the PHEV options. Around 30 miles battery range would get me across town and back again with power to spare and avoid the engine firing up for short journeys when it's extra inefficient, particularly in winter, because of the warm-up time. On longer trips the battery would help the petrol engine run at its optimum efficiency.   

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1017 on: October 11, 2018, 05:54:01 PM »
Wait till road pricing comes in, governments always have one eye on the revenue stream and when petrol and diesel revenue starts to drop they will introduce road pricing which will ensure that EV users of out-of-town roads contribute the same as they do now in fuels and VED for average miles per annum and people who use city roads will be bled dry.  EV are in a honeymoon period at the moment when governments will wait till a certain number of users are commited before springing their trap.  Uber will not escape either with autonomous taxis as the government will have to raise money to pay the benefits of people they put out of a job.... watch this space.

The government can no longer control fuel prices by raising electricity costs as this will affect every energy user, but they may insist on installation of smart meters that can detect when an EV is being charged.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 05:58:34 PM by culzean »
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madasafish

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1018 on: October 12, 2018, 01:14:11 PM »
What has not been talked about much, is the extra load on the National Grid. They are already close to trouble in extra cold weather, without having 1000's of EVs to contend with, just have a look at the Gridwatch website on a cold frosty morning.
Everyone seems to worry about this except the National Grid themselves, who tell us there is more than sufficient capacity.

Most charging will be done at NIGHT.. Come home after a day's work, plug in and start charging at Off Peak rates 8pm to 6am... Smart Meters will have cheap rates at those hours.. outside them rates rise 50%..( I forecast - nothing like that is in practise but it will be  and Smart Meters no doubt can be used to throttle consumption).

Our Smart Meter is a Mark1 and is as useful as an icecream in a furnace.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1019 on: October 12, 2018, 02:06:46 PM »
EV chargers are where the Smart bit comes in. They do not just charge like an old fashioned battery charger, but allow you to programme when and how they will charge and take into account tariffs and such. And they are getting better with every iteration.
I wonder what will happen to the sales of PHEVs now that the government has removed the grant, as of 9th November. I wonder if that had something to do with the peak in sales recently.

Car groups condemn grant cuts for electric and hybrid vehicles

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