Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 49766 times)

John Ratsey

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #930 on: July 03, 2018, 12:49:31 PM »
A PHEV would do me but I absolutely do not need or want a big car. All of them seem to big. I want a Jazz sized PHEV.
I wonder how much battery capacity could be achieved by having 4 small packs under the boot floor in the corners outside the spare wheel well. Alternatively, there's plenty of space under the back seat but one would then forego the magic seats.

The Kia Niro is a bit longer than the Jazz (about 4.3m long) but offers both normal hybrid and PHEV versions. The former has the battery under the back seat and space for a full sized spare wheel.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #931 on: July 05, 2018, 12:34:26 PM »
Not quite a quantum leap, but an example of how new technology is being used to improve EVs. As a retired electrical engineer I had read about ultra capacitors but never gave a lot of thought to how they could be used. As the engineer for this high tech company explains, they are being used in large electric vehicles already (buses and container cranes are mentioned), to smooth out  peaks and troughs of energy uses. For an electric car they can be used to collect the energy from hard braking then immediately give it back for acceleration (a typical cycle in the use of any motor car). Removing this cycle of events from the battery improves the battery performance, gives longer range, can increase the working life of the battery to twice that currently experienced (imaging an EV battery guaranteed for 250,000 miles), and also affects cooling and such.
Obviously, the large units shown near the end would be too big and heavy for a car, but he reckons they will be incorporated into EV traction systems in 5 or 6 years.
Very interesting technology and a most enlightening video.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #932 on: July 06, 2018, 06:54:25 PM »
Saw this on another fuel forum:  "It's likely that the tighter the emissions regulations become, the easier and cheaper it is for car makers to research and develop an EV than make an ICE one pass regs, the fossil fuelled car has already begun to decline."
Seems likely.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #933 on: July 07, 2018, 08:55:28 AM »
Not quite a quantum leap, but an example of how new technology is being used to improve EVs. As a retired electrical engineer I had read about ultra capacitors but never gave a lot of thought to how they could be used. As the engineer for this high tech company explains, they are being used in large electric vehicles already (buses and container cranes are mentioned), to smooth out  peaks and troughs of energy uses. For an electric car they can be used to collect the energy from hard braking then immediately give it back for acceleration (a typical cycle in the use of any motor car). Removing this cycle of events from the battery improves the battery performance, gives longer range, can increase the working life of the battery to twice that currently experienced (imaging an EV battery guaranteed for 250,000 miles), and also affects cooling and such.
Obviously, the large units shown near the end would be too big and heavy for a car, but he reckons they will be incorporated into EV traction systems in 5 or 6 years.

As I said in an earlier post, capacitors and batteries are not interchangeable but complimentary - a capacitor has low energy density (worse than lead acid batteries) but can accept and release power quickly,  a battery has high energy density but due to its chemical reaction has problems accepting and releasing power quickly.  A capacitor stores an electric charge between two plates ( normally separated by an dry insulator) where a battery stores electricity as a chemical reaction,  the fact that this chemical reaction has to be continually made and reversed is the problem,  it releases heat on both charge and discharge and the chemical reaction 'wears out' as the battery ages (mainly due to problems with anode).  The capacitor develops no real heat on charge and discharge but its charge and discharge characteristics are strange, as they are exponential curves (voltage drops very rapidly to about 50% discharge and then slows down),  rather than the fairly linear and predictable voltage drop  at a batteries terminals as it discharges.

I would guess that the power storage on F1 cars is capacitor rather than battery as there is no need for long term storage and the power is absorbed quickly from regen braking and release quickly for acceleration almost straight away.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2018, 08:58:16 AM by culzean »
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culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #934 on: July 07, 2018, 08:59:32 AM »
Saw this on another fuel forum:  "It's likely that the tighter the emissions regulations become, the easier and cheaper it is for car makers to research and develop an EV than make an ICE one pass regs, the fossil fuelled car has already begun to decline."
Seems likely.

And the legislators will make sure this happens,  just like they did with Diesel, until a problem with EV turns up......
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #935 on: July 09, 2018, 07:19:29 AM »
Some interesting EV info expected to be announced today. Chris Grayling is expected to announce that new-build homes in England are to be required to have  charging points installed and street lighting to include some charging points too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44759150

There are also some interesting new talk videos on "Fully Charged", from their Fully Charged Live 2018, held at Silverstone at the start of June.
There are bits from a range of contributors, from the National Grid, to CEO of Eco Cars, the countries first major supplier of pre-owned EVs.
Suppliers of charging infrastructure are saying that the EV manufacturers have basically all settled on CCS as there preferred charging option, so it looks like this will become the industry standard.
Pivot Power have applied for planning permission to install their first 50 MW battery storage system, each supplying 100 charging points, with 45 planned to be installed over the next 5 years. Cost will be £1.6 billion.
Eco Cars pointed out that the majority of owners replacing PHEVs are buying full EVs. PHEVs seem to give them the confidence to take the plunge.
The National Grid spokesman said that they have no problem supplying power to the emerging EV market, scoffing at the Daily Mail's "We will require 5 new nuclear power plants". And that despite the fact that one 350 KW charging point requires the same power as a B&Q store, with two the same as an IKEA!
The guy from Ecotricity says that they have been able to install fast chargers at all bar one of the UK's motorway service stations, the one not having grid capacity.

And a video explaining the problems with sustained high power use from a Tesla Model X. Apparently you cannot accelerate up and down to 155 mph over a prolonged period without the powertrain overheating and limiting the power. Yaboo!


ColinB

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #936 on: July 09, 2018, 10:27:00 AM »
Some interesting EV info expected to be announced today. Chris Grayling is expected to announce that new-build homes in England are to be required to have  charging points installed and street lighting to include some charging points too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44759150

Hmmm, maybe a (tiny) step in the right direction. Grayling’s stated intent ...
“The proposals, announced by Transport Secretary Chris Grayling, aim to make it easier to recharge an electric car rather than refuel petrol or diesel vehicles.”
... is right on what’s needed, but the proposals themselves (as reported by the BBC) aren’t exactly going to bring EVs into the mainstream.

There is no actual requirement for new-build homes to have charging points, merely “The need to assess if new homes and offices should be required to install charging points as standard”. In other words, developers just have to think about doing it.

And the lamppost proposal is only for new ones, there’s nothing about retro-fitting or replacing existing. Even if they did retro-fit, the number of cars parked in the average suburban terraced street far outweighs the number of lamp posts.

So this measure alone isn’t going to have a dramatic result, but if it’s simply the opening salvo in a concerted campaign to improve charging infrastructure then maybe more effective steps will follow.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #937 on: July 12, 2018, 08:50:04 AM »
Tesla has just signed up to build a new factory in Shanghai with a view to producing 500,000 cars a year, worldwide. China will help with some of the costs. I imagine China will probably be investing big, seeing their desire to be the worlds biggest producers of EVs.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-china/tesla-to-open-plant-in-shanghai-with-annual-capacity-of-500000-cars-local-media-idUSKBN1K01HL

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #938 on: July 12, 2018, 09:37:57 AM »
Tesla has just signed up to build a new factory in Shanghai with a view to producing 500,000 cars a year, worldwide. China will help with some of the costs. I imagine China will probably be investing big, seeing their desire to be the worlds biggest producers of EVs.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-china/tesla-to-open-plant-in-shanghai-with-annual-capacity-of-500000-cars-local-media-idUSKBN1K01HL

Ha Ha - the Chinese will just steal Tesla technology and make 'Tasle' vehicles LOL.   No such thing as intellectual property protection in China,  it resembles the US wild west a few hundred years ago.  Sure they play lip service to IP protection,  but many companies have found to their cost that US / international laws do not apply in China, and with such a big internal market they don't have to care much about international IP and patents.  Better for Musk to have Tesla cars crash in China than in USA I suppose.  China has a massive problem with its currency and foreign investments at the moment,  they have overstretched themselves and face a collapse of economy, despite keeping a ( state controlled) veneer of being a sound economy,  they are sinking deep into the brown and smelly stuff.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/economy/article/2131202/financial-risk-facing-china-worse-us-global-crash-former-finance

Any company opening a 'joint venture' company or even having stuff made in China is setting up a competitor for the future. When I lived in Aussie our company used to make and export machinery to China,  but after a few years they stopped buying and remarkably similar equipment to ours appeared in China and for sale throughout Asia,  they are not to be trusted (in business or anything else). The incumbent President of USA has the right idea, to bring production back to USA and stop giving competitors all your secrets. Forget Russia  the next skirmishes will involve China and their growing ambitions,  they are already building fortified islands in the China sea trying to deny freedom of navigation to other nations.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 10:12:20 AM by culzean »
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Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #939 on: July 12, 2018, 10:34:35 AM »
They will be our new market after Brexit.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #940 on: July 12, 2018, 06:06:37 PM »
It appears that the young will take to electric cars in greater numbers than the old fuddy-duddys.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44798135

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #941 on: July 12, 2018, 08:51:47 PM »
It appears that the young will take to electric cars in greater numbers than the old fuddy-duddys.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44798135

Funny that surveys of millennials last year said 70% of them would not want an electric vehicle, about the same % as older buyers.

 I do not trust BBC, they are mouth piece of government and in no way unbiased or neutral. They have been heavily criticised for their bias on a lot of things, but they shrug and are unrepentant.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 08:57:49 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #942 on: July 12, 2018, 09:45:49 PM »
The BBC were reporting an AA/Populus poll. Are the AA in the governments pocket too?
Here is another report of the poll.

https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3035756/half-of-young-drivers-would-like-an-electric-car

Ah! but that is a "Green" publication. They will be biased too. I'll need to wait and see what the Daily Mail says about it.

ColinB

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #943 on: July 12, 2018, 10:32:48 PM »
It's very difficult to know what to conclude from that sort of survey because it depends on exactly how the question was phrased. If I were asked "Would you like to own an electric car ?" I would probably answer "Yes" so my answer would support the conclusion of that survey. But that's very different to being able to own one, because I know very well that the shortcomings in current technology and infrastructure make it impractical.

I did like the bit about the AA expecting people  to charge their EVs at home, neatly ignoring that that is impossible now and for the foreseeable future for a large fraction of the motoring public

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #944 on: July 13, 2018, 07:01:17 AM »
I did like the bit about the AA expecting people  to charge their EVs at home, neatly ignoring that that is impossible now and for the foreseeable future for a large fraction of the motoring public
That is the reason I don't have one now. Once we move to the house with the drive and a powered garage I will swap immediately. However, discussing with local Leaf owners I was surprised to find that most of them do not have home chargers but use public chargers, of which there are many around here. They are to all intent and purpose  free to use in Scotland (ChargePlace) funded by the Scottish government (£20 annual fee).
Mind you, our local hospital did some remodelling, and put a new car park in, primarily for staff. It has a charging station with 4 bays, but has been bagged over, and out of commission since before Christmas! (not ChargePoint but a pay to use system)

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