Author Topic: Unfavourable Review of new Jazz  (Read 14807 times)

Pine

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Re: Unfavourable Review of new Jazz
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2016, 10:19:52 AM »
I have to agree with the review. There are a lot of hills where I live and my Jazz struggled to gain any speed uphill.
My first thought would be wondering why you are often trying to gain speed uphill often enough to care. It's a very inefficient thing to do.

I was thinking of a situation where you are you are stopped at a red light and facing uphill, a scenario I often encounter.

The Jazz has a typical Honda engine, give it plenty of revs to get up in the torque band and its a real flyer. But in the real world where you are stuck in the flow of traffic and come to a steep hill I sometimes found my CVT was almost full throttle just to keep up, not very fuel efficient, once up to speed I could throttle off a bit.

andruec

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Re: Unfavourable Review of new Jazz
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2016, 11:10:21 AM »
I was thinking of a situation where you are you are stopped at a red light and facing uphill, a scenario I often encounter.

The Jazz has a typical Honda engine, give it plenty of revs to get up in the torque band and its a real flyer. But in the real world where you are stuck in the flow of traffic and come to a steep hill I sometimes found my CVT was almost full throttle just to keep up, not very fuel efficient, once up to speed I could throttle off a bit.
Ah. Well I've driven up a few steep hills but never actually had to get going from a standstill. Closest I've done is leaving the 30mph zone at Brailles or Swalcliffe. The car seems quite capable of accelerating up them even though both are of the order of 20% or maybe even 30%. The A422 up from the M40 is fairly steep and when I put my foot down few people keep up with me. Even bigger cars don't scream away into the distance. I've never been 'left standing' by anything. But frankly most people just accelerate moderately and the bulk of us stay together.

Still there's never been any good reason to go screaming up any hill (or indeed at any point) and that's why I'm sceptical about the criticism. I drive 200 miles a week and have been driving for several decades. My experience is simply that very few people regularly accelerate quickly. I can't imagine any normal situation where it is necessary to floor the accelerator in any vehicle. I've driven the original Mini. The Mini Metro (both 1 litre) a 1 litre Nissan Micra. Sure they were a bit underpowered (the Micra caused me to abandon an overtake on a very short dual carriageway at Kingswood on the A41).

But I have never driven a vehicle that I felt couldn't keep up with normal traffic flow. You get the occasional twonk in a big car (typically a BMW or Audi) who tries to chivvy you along but they don't matter and can be safely ignored. Most people just don't drive in such a way as to require anything much out of any vehicle.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 11:14:51 AM by andruec »

Skyrider

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Re: Unfavourable Review of new Jazz
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2016, 11:21:57 AM »
From the article linked in the OP I don't think the lady has any mechanical knowledge or a clue what is under the bonnet. She obviously does not know how to access the 100 BHP which is more than adequate for a small car if she needs it. As for no interlock on reverse, she can't have tried to get reverse from anywhere but neutral. There are a few reviews around where the writer does not realise that the Jazz is a two mode car, normal pottering about, and i-vetc when power is required. As for uphill performance, my car will maintain 70 mph up the steepest motorway hill in the UK in 6th gear on cruise control (southbound M90 from Bridge of Earn which is outside the motorway maximum gradient spec but no option due to terrain) although the change down light comes on near the top.

My son in law had a S2000, that had awesome vetc, my daughter ordered its sale after a couple of damp road spins. :-)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 10:11:41 PM by Deeps »

VicW

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Re: Unfavourable Review of new Jazz
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2016, 11:27:37 AM »
Perhaps the tester lady was driving in high heels which means that it quite likely physically impossible for her to apply any more than part throttle. The same applies to men of course !

Vic.

andruec

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Re: Unfavourable Review of new Jazz
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2016, 01:41:20 PM »
It's just occurred to me that when I first got the car I noticed that sometimes the accelerator pedal seemed a bit dead. I'd press it and almost nothing happened. That no longer bothers me so I'm guessing that I've learnt the 'knack'. I think I might be being a bit more aggressive with the pedal than I used to be. Perhaps I've just learnt the right amount of 'kick down' to wake the engine up. I am now nearly always at 3,000 rpm when moving off unless I'm in a queue.

Ocky

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Re: Unfavourable Review of new Jazz
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2016, 04:05:12 PM »
I have a Mk2 and my Uncle who got me into Hondas had a Mk2 for 3 years. Last September he bought a Mk3 and has recently changed it for a Mini Countryman 1.6, as he just couldn't get on with it.

I agree that the Guardian reviews are not very helpful whatever the car is, and there are few useful facts. I've had the new Jazz as a courtesy car on a few occasions and liked the gizzmos but did find it a little underpowered and I'm no boy racer.

mikebore

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Re: Unfavourable Review of new Jazz
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2016, 04:23:11 PM »
I haven't driven a manual Jazz but with my Mk3 CVT, S mode makes a significant difference to the subjective "peppiness" of the car.

I found the same was even more true of my Mk 2 where it felt distinctly less peppy than my my wife Mk1 when used in normal D mode, but much more peppy in S mode.

The S mode in the Mk3 and Mk2 are highly usable, but in the Mk1 it feel too low geared.

peteo48

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Re: Unfavourable Review of new Jazz
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2016, 06:12:22 PM »
I have a Mk2 and my Uncle who got me into Hondas had a Mk2 for 3 years. Last September he bought a Mk3 and has recently changed it for a Mini Countryman 1.6, as he just couldn't get on with it.

I agree that the Guardian reviews are not very helpful whatever the car is, and there are few useful facts. I've had the new Jazz as a courtesy car on a few occasions and liked the gizzmos but did find it a little underpowered and I'm no boy racer.

I think part of the problem is that the trend is for newspaper car reviewers to only test up market cars with the odd ordinary motor thrown in for balance. If you are used to putting powerful cars through their paces the jazz is going to seem pretty pedestrian. The same reviewer (again, not a proper motoring journalist) tested the Civic Type R last year and found it "insanely fast."

The Jazz range is possibly crying out for a hotter version though. Something to compete with the 1.2 TSI engine fitted to the Polo or the 1 litre Eco Boost in the Fiesta. A friend has a Fiesta with that engine and it has a responsiveness that the Jazz lacks.

For me, and for my type of motoring, this is not an issue but if they want a broader customer base they need an engine option that will offer a 0-60 time of under 10 seconds and one that doesn't have to be "ragged" to bring the power out.

Skyrider

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Re: Unfavourable Review of new Jazz
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2016, 07:14:35 PM »
It is difficult to "ragg" a vtec engine, they are designed for high revs. Something that seems to be lost on many drivers.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 07:37:06 PM by Deeps »

VicW

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Re: Unfavourable Review of new Jazz
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2016, 07:48:42 PM »
It is difficult to "ragg" a vetc engine, they are designed for high revs. Something that seems to be lost on many drivers.

I am with 'Deeps' on this. The vtec engine is whatever you want it to be, a docile very flexible engine happy at low revs or a snappy revving beast giving adequate performance. all this is courtesy of the variable valve timing and engine management system.
I think that the CVT version is the most pleasing to drive as its response to wide throttle openings is almost instantaneous and will easily reach 6K revs on full throttle and using the 'S' mode to preempt overtaking moves will take the engine to 6.5K ( the start of the red line). Doing this will not cause the engine to explode, Honda run their engines on test beds at max revs for hours. Yes the engine gets noisy but not for long as the gear changes up'. The effect on fuel consumption is negligible, you are not driving like this all the time.
If you want a low revving engine then buy a diesel.

Vic.


andruec

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Re: Unfavourable Review of new Jazz
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2016, 08:02:12 PM »
It is difficult to "ragg" a vtec engine, they are designed for high revs. Something that seems to be lost on many drivers.
Exactly. The entire premise of the V-TEC engine is to produce power on demand. If drivers are unable or unwilling to make that demand they should consider a different engine technology.

It would be interesting to know if the complainers are experiencing the poor accelerator response I used to notice. I have my doubts though as it didn't happen often and to me was clearly something wrong. It felt more like the car was ignoring my right foot completely rather than lacking power.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 08:16:31 PM by andruec »

Skyrider

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Re: Unfavourable Review of new Jazz
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2016, 10:38:41 PM »
Was this poor response in your early days of ownership? The reason I ask is the thought crossed my mind that you were in too high a gear for the situation as it was a new to you car. If it was a fault it is unlikely to have mended itself. Rapidly learning that a much lower gear was required may have fixed the problem. As an ex diesel driver of 30 years standing I had this problem until I relearned petrol driving.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 08:44:54 AM by Deeps »

edam

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Re: Unfavourable Review of new Jazz
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2016, 11:57:20 PM »
What everybody does not realise is that the Mk3 uses a hybrid engine but WITHOUT a electric motor to provide torque at low revs.
Its not about V-Tec but the fact that the inlet valve is held open on the compression stroke to reduce compression losses and hence increase economy. Ok if you have a electric motor to compensate for the lack of torque but crap if you aint.
For a change it looks like this reviewer has actually driven the car as I don't think some reviewers have actually done that

Skyrider

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Re: Unfavourable Review of new Jazz
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2016, 08:29:11 AM »
I agree it is basically a hybrid minus the complication of the weight of the batteries and associated motor etc. People complaining about lack of low rev torque don't understand the concept of the Mk3 Jazz. This is having both economy and power available at the drivers choice. If you use the torque of a small turbo engine the fuel consumption will rise in proportion to the acceleration used. There is no free lunch in fuel consumption, at least the current Jazz gives you the choice, if you understand how it works.

andruec

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Re: Unfavourable Review of new Jazz
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2016, 08:30:37 AM »
Was this poor response in your early days of ownership? The reason I ask is the thought crossed my mind that you were in too high a gear for the situation as it was a new to you car.
Me? No. I own a CVT model. I'm always in the correct gear. I think it had more to do with the two different engine modes.

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