2002 GD1 Starting Problem

[Chutney]

Hi folks,

Despite being a member for some time I've not posted much due to fairly trouble free motoring, however my current issue is a little more complex.

My Jazz was unused for some time and when I tried to start it, it appeared there was insufficient charge in the battery.

I replaced the battery but it still would not start, and it sounded like it was making only a mild attempt at turning over before doing nothing else.

I've now removed the starter motor (which was more taxing than the Haynes manual suggested) and tested it, and both the solenoid and motor work fine every time.

The troubleshooting procedure regarding circuit faults in the Haynes manual is a little confusing, and I'm wondering if that should be my next point of investigation or not.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

In addition, I'd be interested to know what the pinion gear teeth should look like as mine appear worn on the ends, and if there's anything else I should do to the unit before refitting, as there is a reasonable amount of black deposit where it fits in to the gearbox - is it worth hand wire brushing it to ensure the best possible operation before it goes back on?

I'll gladly upload a photo of it, if that helps.

Thanks in advance!

Regards,

James

[VicW]

I asume that the engine is turning over but not very quickly.
My first suggestion is to check that the leads that connect the battery and the engine to the body are in good condition and have a clean, uncorroded connection to the car body.
If you have tested the starter motor and solenoid off the car you know that the solenoid is OK but not
necessarily the starter motor because it is not under load.If there is a lot of black crud about maybe the motor brushes are worn out and an overhaul may be in order by an auto electrician.
The Jazz is not known for being a poor starter,I think that went out with the myth that Ford's were always poor starters.

Vic.

[Chutney]

I asume that the engine is turning over but not very quickly.
My first suggestion is to check that the leads that connect the battery and the engine to the body are in good condition and have a clean, uncorroded connection to the car body.
If you have tested the starter motor and solenoid off the car you know that the solenoid is OK but not
necessarily the starter motor because it is not under load.If there is a lot of black crud about maybe the motor brushes are worn out and an overhaul may be in order by an auto electrician.
The Jazz is not known for being a poor starter,I think that went out with the myth that Ford's were always poor starters.

Vic.

First of all, I just realised that I posted in the wrong section, Mk 2 instead of Mk 1, oops, can it be moved? Sorry!

Thanks Vic, the engine doesn't really turn over at all, it sounds and feels like the starter makes a very quick attempt but then doesn't really get anywhere, so your comment about an off the car test not reflecting it being under loads sounds spot on.

The battery negative to body connection looks fine, however the gearbox to body not so much so, as per the attached photos.

I've also attached a photo of the pinion end of the starter, hopefully this will clarify the extent and type of deposit.

Auto electrics are not my strong point (clearly) so your help is appreciated.

If anyone can confirm if they think the gearbox to body earth strap/bracket needs attention I'm all for it.  Should I presume a hand wire brushing would be adequate? Suggestions on what to use to prevent corrosion returning would be welcome.

I'm waiting for a call back from a local auto electrician for a price on looking at the starter motor, I'd rather not risk a ropey secondhand one from eBay.

Thanks again!



[attachment deleted by admin]

[VicW]

Personally I would clean up both earth points by removing them,removing any corrosion with a wire brush and emry paper and coating them with Vaseline before reassembly.
The starter motor cog I'm not sure about but the grime is probably about normal.

Vic.

[DrShockr]

Just going to throw it out in the wind here, could it be your key?

My previous jazz seemed to have a faulty immobilizer transponder in the spare key and would hesitate to start with the green key sign flashing on the dash. Jiggling the key and trying again would work. Never had a problem with the other key.

It seemed to sort itself out after being used more frequently.

[Pine]

I sometimes use my spare key just to make sure it is working. If you don't use a key for a long time is it possible for it to get out of sync with the immobilizer?

[guest255]

Ive used the spare key a couple of times a year and had no problems over the years.

[Chutney]

Personally I would clean up both earth points by removing them,removing any corrosion with a wire brush and emry paper and coating them with Vaseline before reassembly.
The starter motor cog I'm not sure about but the grime is probably about normal.

Vic.

Thanks Vic!

So I took your advice, and after testing both the battery negative earth to body strap and engine to body strap and mount, found that the engine to body strap and mount continuity was poor.  I cleaned up the bracket, bolts and washers and reassembled it with the strap (which tested OK) and hoped that would be the end of it.

Unfortunately after reassembly the fault persists.

One question that was put to me was whether the car would roll in first gear.  It was difficult enough to roll in neutral after having been stood so long, and wouldn't budge in first gear.  Maybe I'm weak, or maybe this points to something else?

I can understand that if the starter is working off the car (albeit not under load) but that the force it generates is insufficient to spin the flywheel, that it would fail to start.

Is trying to push the car in first gear the only or best way of testing whether something else is amiss?

Also, it was suggested to me to try to bypass the loom, and power the starter straight off the battery, to determine if the fault is in the circuit.  There's no hope of getting the jump leads on to the starter motor due to the lack of space in that area (even with the bumper and crash bar off) as a coolant pipe is slap bang in the way.

Any suggestions on tests that I can carry out with a multimeter to help eliminate the circuit as part of the fault would be appreciated, as would any other suggestions.

It's a beautiful day and I'd love to be able to get it running so I can crack on with a full service and return it to rude health - oh do I miss driving it!

Any and all suggestions on how to proceed would be welcomed...

[Chutney]

Just going to throw it out in the wind here, could it be your key?

My previous jazz seemed to have a faulty immobilizer transponder in the spare key and would hesitate to start with the green key sign flashing on the dash. Jiggling the key and trying again would work. Never had a problem with the other key.

It seemed to sort itself out after being used more frequently.

Thanks for the suggestion DrShockr!

After reassembly, and a failed attempt at starting, I tried the other key but to no avail.

The green key light on the dash flashes prior to turning to the ignition position, then goes off as normal, so unfortunately it wasn't that easy 

Thanks anyway!

[culzean]

Personally I would clean up both earth points by removing them,removing any corrosion with a wire brush and emry paper and coating them with Vaseline before reassembly.
The starter motor cog I'm not sure about but the grime is probably about normal.

Vic.

One question that was put to me was whether the car would roll in first gear.  It was difficult enough to roll in neutral after having been stood so long, and wouldn't budge in first gear.  Maybe I'm weak, or maybe this points to something else?

Any suggestions on tests that I can carry out with a multimeter to help eliminate the circuit as part of the fault would be appreciated, as would any other suggestions.

Don't worry you are not weak - you would have to be a pretty strong person to push the car in first gear.

never had a starter motor fail on a Honda, but have had them 'go weak' on other cars.  but could be the contacts in the power switch that have corroded. The starter is pre-engaged- which means that the solenoid pushes the gear pinion teeth into mesh with the flywheel gear teeth and this movement closes some heavy duty contacts which supply power to motor (this was done to replace old style 'bendix' type starters which rotated the motor before engaging it, and the rotation pushed the gear down a helical spline which 'threw' the gear into mesh while it was rotating - needless to say this caused damage to both the starter and flywheel gear teeth).

Put a voltmeter across battery terminals while you are trying to start the car - voltage should drop to about 9 volts - if it stays too high then the motor is not drawing enough current,  this could be cause by contacts or starter motor itself.

[Chutney]

Personally I would clean up both earth points by removing them,removing any corrosion with a wire brush and emry paper and coating them with Vaseline before reassembly.
The starter motor cog I'm not sure about but the grime is probably about normal.

Vic.

One question that was put to me was whether the car would roll in first gear.  It was difficult enough to roll in neutral after having been stood so long, and wouldn't budge in first gear.  Maybe I'm weak, or maybe this points to something else?

Any suggestions on tests that I can carry out with a multimeter to help eliminate the circuit as part of the fault would be appreciated, as would any other suggestions.

Don't worry you are not weak - you would have to be a pretty strong person to push the car in first gear.

never had a starter motor fail on a Honda, but have had them 'go weak' on other cars.  but could be the contacts in the power switch that have corroded. The starter is pre-engaged- which means that the solenoid pushes the gear pinion teeth into mesh with the flywheel gear teeth and this movement closes some heavy duty contacts which supply power to motor (this was done to replace old style 'bendix' type starters which rotated the motor before engaging it, and the rotation pushed the gear down a helical spline which 'threw' the gear into mesh while it was rotating - needless to say this caused damage to both the starter and flywheel gear teeth).

Put a voltmeter across battery terminals while you are trying to start the car - voltage should drop to about 9 volts - if it stays too high then the motor is not drawing enough current,  this could be cause by contacts or starter motor itself.

Thanks culzean!

I just tried a voltmeter across the battery terminals when trying to start it, and it dropped to 7.8v.

I'm now uncertain if this points to the starter motor drawing enough current, or too much, and what in turn that indicates, if anything.

Someone else suggested checking the interior light and lights on the dash when trying to start, and unsurprisingly they all dim.

Am I flogging a dead horse here? Should I reluctantly conceded and call an auto electrician out?

I hate to pay anyone to anything I can do myself, especially at the expected astronomical rates they will probably charge, but I don't feel like I'm making any real progress