Author Topic: Standard Engine Oil  (Read 20250 times)

guest3695

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Re: Standard Engine Oil
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2013, 10:46:12 AM »
IF you want the premium stuff, it comes with a price tag. Stuff like Amsoil isn't cheap, but when you change it you'll find it's cleaner than many other synthetic oils at the same service interval.

Sorry,  but if your oil isn't getting dirty it isn't doing its job, the oil is there to lubricate and cool the engine,  but it is also there to mop up all the acid junk that petrol produces when it burns.  The actual oil doesn't wear out,  but the buffering additives (to neutralize the acids ) and viscosity modifiers do get used up.  That is why they like you you take the old oil to recycling, they just clean it up, put in some more more additives and the oil is good as new.

The Jazz engines are not super-sport highly stressed engines,  so save yourself some money and use Castrol Magnatec Ford A1 5W-30 fully synth,  or Mobil Super 3000 FE 5W-30 fully synth - If you want to do your engine a real favour spend the difference on a bottle of Molyslip engine additive - those little super slippery plates of molybdenum disulphide will plate up the bearing surfaces with a film that is tougher that any oil yet made (that's why it is called an extreme pressure lubricant, and is widely used in industry), and are there when the oil has drained away (much better for cold starts). The grease in the CV joints on vehicles is molybdenum disulphide based, which means those bearings can take a proper hammering and not wear out.

If you want the Honda gearbox to be even slicker than it is now, put some Molyslip in the gearbox as well - you will quickly feel the benefit. 

And before you ask I don't work for Molyslip - but I am an engineer.

An apology is not an apology if it's followed by "but".

So you're an engineer. Good for you. I've got a lot of respect for engineers. I am not an engineer, but I am a bio-chemist.
Are you a specialist in the field of long chain hydrocarbons, and engine-oil additives? You mention them, but do you know which shear resistant viscosity index improvers are added to the Castrol one you mention or how oxidation resistant the base is compared to the one I mentioned? If not, I'd invite you to research them independently (on your own vehicle) and with the same service intervals.

Look, I'm not going shoot you down over this, and I was being deliberately broad in my use of tech talk in my previous post, but I'll stick to my guns on this one. Not all fully synth oils are the same, and if I could ask you to re-read what I put, I didn't say the Amsoil doesn't get dirty, only that it is cleaner when you change it. Yes, I agree it gets darker because of the simply by products of the internal combustion engine, but there are additives present in some oils making them far more resistant to sludging or small particle impurity suspension, thus allowing them to deposit said impurities in the filter.

This is why I have a filter can cutter so I can check the condition of the filter itself every few services - it's an insight into how the engine is wearing, and you're going to throw it away anyway, so you might as well see how well it's working.

The oil is the life-blood of any engine, so I always use the best one I can get hold of, and different engines want different oils. My personal experience of Amsoil on a motorcycle has been very good.

Regarding additives, I've often sat on the fence with those. Some are clear snake oil (just looking at the ingredients) and anything that says it can add metal to an engine internally, gets a laugh from me. Molybdenum based additives could work, but I've no idea how they affect movement of oil through arterial pathways to the top of the engine, so I've always gone for regular oil changes. In a gearbox, I'm with you all the way and I suspect they would be great. Ours s great at the minute, but it's worth trying whilst it's good to see what happens!

culzean

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Re: Standard Engine Oil
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2013, 11:46:54 AM »
Not going to drag this one out, but am speaking from many (too many)  years experience, have always covered a lot of miles (25K+ a year just getting to work and back) and a lot of my cars have  reached extended mileages, never a spanner on the engine and still not using a single drop of oil between services. because of mileage I change oil every 6 months (exceeding the 12K recommendation) but just use Magnatec or Mobil as stated - nothing fancy.

motorcycle oil is generally much more highly stressed than car engine oil.  hence the 3K oil change on most bikes (and the high price tag of the oil) - but both the iDSi and VTEC honda Jazz engines are low stress 'Cooking' engines by comparison.  UK operatiing temperatures are not particularly challenging when compared to most of the world.

If you stick to branded oil it is almost impossible to get bad oil nowadays,  but buying expensive oil designed for high performance engines for a Jazz is like buying racetrack brake pads and discs for a commuter car - no benefit - and Honda use Castrol oil in their BTCC and Superbike engines (and they are winning a lot of races at present).

Regarding MoS2 - I used to live next door to a lubrication specialist and he said that the lubrication properties of Molybdenum Disulphide are astounding (one of its uses was on the conveyor chains that feed pulverised coal into the heart of power station furnaces - it doesn't get much more challenging than that) also that the individual plates of MoS2 are like the particles in cigarette smoke, so no problem getting through filter and around upper cylinder channels. The Sulphide part sticks to metal and the molybdenum provides the slippery bit, it is a boundary lubricant and is still there when the oil has gone (or before it gets there).



 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 04:12:16 PM by culzean »
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guest2982

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Re: Standard Engine Oil
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2013, 11:05:25 PM »
ha ha told ya. dealers have no clue themselves, someone posted before that they put in anything they have in stock
OMG just phone up honda and they said that they use 10w-30 semi synthetic oil.

what is confusing me in this kind of discussions about oil A being better then oil B is absence of any empirical measurement.

I don't buy arguments like "my z cars for x years were ok", it does not mean that they won't be ok with smaller intervals, cheaper oil, or "change at Z miles and u'll be fine".. and are statistically insignificant. I remember reading story(on fitfreak?) of someone not changing oil on his jazz for 5 years, and engine still did not die on him..

why castrol or amsoil or whatever do not state lifetime of the oil in some abstract units, at least for their own product line? like "our semi does 6X, fully 10x", etc. honda with variable servicing is able to guess approx oil lifetime, based on temp, cold starts number, revs, load, etc. so it must be measurable.

for now I stick to honda's spec, I understand changing it every day with racing grade would be better but.. how much better? does it worth it?

(disclosure) I'm putting castrol fully synth this time, just because it was 20 quid on sale :)

chrisc

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Re: Standard Engine Oil
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2013, 07:25:19 AM »
Just use the oil recommended for your car and country.  In SA, the recommended oil is 10w50 but my neighbour down the road, who is the workshop foreman at the local Honda dealer, said it makes no difference whatsoever.  You can use synthetic (an expensive waste of time in his opinion), 5w30 or 10w40, the main thing is that you change the oil and filter at regular intervals.  The recommended interval is 15 000km but he reckons if you do mainly short trips in town, change it every 10 000km

The dark colour in used oil is a combination of petrol combustion, oxidants and dissolved sludge from the engine and breakdown of the molecular structure.  This is perfectly able to be re-refined and will have the characteristics of new oil thereafter

He is also firmly against additives, saying that they are a waste of money
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guest3971

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Re: Standard Engine Oil
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2013, 10:04:37 AM »

(disclosure) I'm putting castrol fully synth this time, just because it was 20 quid on sale :)
[/quote]

what fully synth you put in? 5w-30 or 0w-30?

So what you use before? I got some left over castrol fully synth 5w30 so I might use it this time  ;D

guest2662

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Re: Standard Engine Oil
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2013, 10:16:07 AM »
what a fuss just to change the oil, just do it. ;D

guest2982

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Re: Standard Engine Oil
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2013, 10:49:16 AM »
:D

instantnoodle, erm, I already answered your question in first post, you can put pretty much any oil in UK and your engine will be fine
I'm reposting image from mentioned link specially for you  :)


guest3971

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Re: Standard Engine Oil
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2013, 11:39:08 AM »
so any grade weather fully synthetic or semi synthetic?

well I will use the 5w-30 first and see how it goes.

many thanks.

culzean

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Re: Standard Engine Oil
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2013, 09:23:40 AM »
what a fuss just to change the oil, just do it. ;D

you are so right :) just buy a well known branded oil at a decent price >£20 (not Aldi, Morrison or Asda own brand at £5.99 for 5 litres) - don't get stuck on minute detail of min-max viscosity etc. the most important thing is to change it regularly.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

RichardA

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Re: Standard Engine Oil
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2013, 09:44:08 PM »
Castrol Magnatec Ford A1 5W-30 fully synth

This is what I use. Halfords sometimes have it on special offer for less than their own brand oil, or try the major supmarket chains.

madasafish

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Re: Standard Engine Oil
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2013, 07:18:21 PM »
I always use the grade and specification recommended by the maker of the car.. Using higher vicosity oil than recommended will impact fuel economy .

As for additives, makers don't use them. So I don't.

I trained as a physicist and read lots about oil recommendations by people who claim to know better than the car makers - so they personally obviously have a multi million pound budget to test each car out  and several months spare to test it under different temperatures and driving conditions!. NOT.

 So I ignore what they say as BS.. which it is.

culzean

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Re: Standard Engine Oil
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2013, 10:29:37 PM »
As for additives, makers don't use them. So I don't.

some of the higher end oils do use MoS2 (molybdenum disulphide and Ws2 (tungsten disulphide nanospheres) but they don't put much in because of cost - they are both expensive substances (oil is a very competitive market and price price sensitive).  As an extreme pressure boundary lubricant they acts as a slippery solid between moving surfaces to stop them touching, and because there is no viscosity involved they don't thin out as temperature rises,  and are there when the oil isn't (at start-up especially).  Honda use MSo2 to coat the skirts of pistons in it's engines to reduce friction between skirt and bore and improve engine efficiency.  Putting molyslip in your gearbox makes the already smooth Honda gear-change even better and reduces gear noise, putting it in your engine will reduce wear.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

madasafish

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Re: Standard Engine Oil
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2013, 06:40:11 AM »
As for additives, makers don't use them. So I don't.
  Honda use MSo2 to coat the skirts of pistons in it's engines to reduce friction between skirt and bore and improve engine efficiency.  Putting molyslip in your gearbox makes the already smooth Honda gear-change even better and reduces gear noise, putting it in your engine will reduce wear.


I can't hear the gearbox at all in my car.. And adding friction reducers to some gearboxes is not recommended - plays the devil with some syncromeshes.. Would not add anything to a CVT ...

culzean

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Re: Standard Engine Oil
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2013, 10:06:50 AM »
goes without saying you should never use friction reducing (or any other) additives in any auto box,  the oil has to be a lower film strength and less slippery for them to work,  as for playing havoc with syncromesh in a standard manual box - it has never happened to me in over 40 years of using the stuff (but I have never had a gearbox or engine need any work despite doing extended mileages) , and the closer you judge the revs when changing gear the less the synchromesh is required anyway.   In a motorbike with 'wet' clutch you should never use additives either,  but that's not because of the gearbox, it's because they will make the clutch slip - what more evidence do you need that the additives lower friction.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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