Steering Rack Guide Adjustment

[guest1844]

I've been looking into what might be causing my stiff steering, which is driving me nuts. The Haynes manual refers to adjusting the rack guide - googling this reveals that this is an adjustment done on many older Hondas. Its usually done to tighten up loose steering, but "if the steering is stiff you need to loosen it off".
Does anyone know of this being done on a Jazz?

Here's the Accord account for example:
http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/7153-diy-steering-rack-guide-adjustment/

It seems this rack guide packs the underside of the rack where the pinion meshes in, to give a close fit. It would seem it would wear a little over time, making it loose. How a Jazz gets stiff I don't know, but I might have a go at this. The above technique removes the need to buy the special Honda tool, which I get the impression even the dealers haven't heard off, though it seems a bike wrench will fit. I'd love to fix this to quell my thoughts of selling the car. Life's too short to not enjoy driving!

[guest2898]

How stiff/heavy is the steering?? if its quite hard to steer it maybe that the electric power steering unit may have blown a fuse on the board, or a relay? worth a check... 

[guest1844]

Its not the EPS. The symptom is friction in the movement, not weight. Its not that the steering is heavy.
In an attempt to be quantitative about it, I'll get a spring gauge (like you're supposed to), hook it onto the steering wheel, and measure how hard you have to pull before it moves. You do this with the front wheels straight and the engine off (ie no EPS). If you do this with your finger, you have to push quite hard, with the only (springy) movement being in the column's torque sensor (ie nothing at the wheels), then suddenly it "gives" and moves an inch. Its this force you need to measure, and Honda have a value for it.
There seem to be plenty of complaints on this over the internet as whole. As I said, on other Hondas, people tighten up the rack guide when their steering gets play in it. If they overtighten, it gets stiff and you back it off. They just do it by feel. I'll measure it as proof that the adjustment works, if indeed it does.

Has anyone done this on any other Honda?

[guest2898]

Good luck with it... hope you get sorted...

[guest1844]

Well I've got some numbers...
I've acquired a digital scale (for weighing luggage etc), and compared my two cars. I attached a cord to a steering wheel spoke and pulled harder and harder until it moved. With the engine off, the Jazz needed between 3.6 and 4kg to move the wheel and overcome the friction or stickiness. With the engine on, 1.8kg. On my Volvo, just 0.3kg with engine off, so its not my imagination!
I cannot find a figure on what its supposed to be, but on older Civics the figure of about 1.5kg (engine off) is used as acceptable. I don't know if the steering is adjustable (like it seems to be on older Hondas). I had a look underneath and found what seems to be the "rack guide", looks different from older Hondas and I don't want to touch it without knowing what I'm doing. I suspect if I asked a dealer I'd get a blank look, followed by a quote for a new rack...

I'd be curious to know what other peoples' cars read on the weigh scale - a big ask I know, but there are several threads on the forum about it.

Cheers
Baz

(I should add, the steering wheels of both cars are the same size, so the actual torque figures compare)

[guest1844]

Some success...

This is what I did:
Car up on ramps. You need to get right under, so you can get to the rear side of the steering rack, where the motor is and the pinion from the steering column is. Access is good actually.

Refering to this:
http://www.hondaoriginalparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SAA401&block_02=B__3311&block_03=20415

Identify the rack screw, item 31 on the drawing. Also note item 35. This is a locknut for the rack screw.
I painted a line from the rack screw (31) across the locknut (35) and onto the body of the rack. This is to record exactly where it all was.
The locknut (35) has thread-glue sticking it to the rack body. I did not attempt to turn the locknut. The rack screw (31) has a 14mm hex head on it. Using a socket, short extension and a long "breaker" bar (the breaker bar was not for force, but just so I could get good control) I rotated anti-clockwise (undo) the rack screw (31) about 20 degrees. I did this in several small steps, and checked the steering feel each time.
At 20 degrees I could then feel less resistance in the steering wheel. Still the notchiness of the motor/gearbox, but not the friction.
I went for a short spin and immediately noticed coming out the drive that the steering was lighter.
I was tempted to add another 10 degrees off the screw, but did I'd read on various old Honda forums that 10 degrees was normally enough. To take too much off would result in play and rattle apparently. I reckon though I could. I'll see how it drives this week and maybe try a bit more.

Finally I put the scale back on the steering wheel and repeated the previous tension test. The figure was about 2 to 2.5kg, which was more than I was expecting. Nevertheless when driving it is lighter, still a wee bit sticky so I may well try a bit more next weekend.

Photo of rack screw and locknut attached.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[DV]

Nice info!

If anyone want to know how is set up by Honda here is the link:
http://www.hondafitjazz.com/manual/A00/HTML/K0/SAA2EK0F00000057151MBAT10.HTML

[guest2865]

Bazzer - very impressive and methodical approach to your problem.  Have you any suggestions as to why this load should develop on the steering?

[guest3040]

Good write up Bazzer, I'm glad you've managed to improve the steering on your Jazz.
I now know what to check if i have any problems in the future.

[guest1844]

Well a couple of days later and the change doesn't seem so remarkable. I loosened it off a bit more but got rattle, such as when backing out the drive. So its back to Saturday's 20deg. Going round corners are better, in that when going round roundabouts if you let the wheel go it will unwind to a steering wheel angle of about 45degrees off straight (which is not so bad bearing in mind the Jazz's geometry), but still some stickiness at dead centre which is where its most annoying when driving straight roads at speed. At least I don't get the feeling of slight panic when at 60 on an A road the very subtle steering input you were trying to make hasn't effected.
So I'll leave it with the 20deg unwind.
The haynes manual refers to an EPS "reset" procedure. I wondered if it is worth doing this. Maybe the EPS is designed to accommodate the friction in the EPS gearbox. I wonder this because sometimes the power steering is slow to kick in. For example, sometimes when doing a 3-point turn, the initial turn is stiff for a split second. I wondered if at low revs there is a cut-back as the alternator has its work cut out most at low revs, but it does it at higher revs as well. I can't replicate it on demand, just happens a couple of times a week.

If anyone want to know how is set up by Honda here is the link:
http://www.hondafitjazz.com/manual/A00/HTML/K0/SAA2EK0F00000057151MBAT10.HTML

Thanks, I'd read this. Undoing the lock-nut would seem the hardest bit, but access is quite good so a large socket (if you can get one) might work. In the end I didn't need to as I could rotate the screw with the locknut in position - quite stiff as you would expect, and the locknut didn't budge.

[guest3222]

Hi. I just joined and wanted to say a huge thank you to Bazzer!

I've been having the same troubles (as have many it would seem) and this has most certainly helped vastly.

Thanks again

[guest1844]

Well. after a week, and about 200 miles, I have to report that the benefit is somewhat indeterminate. There is no worthwhile improvement. The above adjustment may have made a slight improvement, but this is not the cause of the original problem, and I would not offer it as a solution. For instance, yesterday, when driving in motorway roadworks with narrow lanes, the stickiness was as evident as ever, requiring two hands on the wheel to make an accurate steering change (no hands when you're straight) and the frustration that you get when you play your kids games where you have to get those balls into those holes.

You may well ask what was earlier enthusiasm? I can only answer that that was what it seemed, but on Monday morning, I wondered myself. I have often thought the stickiness had good days and bad days, and I just put it down to my imagination. There's only one way to find out, and that is to make repeated force measurements on different days.

As for the adjustment I get the occasional rattle on poor road surfaces (maybe 5 times in the 200 miles) so I will put back by 10degrees and see.

I have edited my earlier post for the sake of clarity / search engines etc.

What may be of interest is to do the force measurement with the engine running, i.e. with the EPS, to see if there are differences day-by-day.

[guest2865]

Pity to hear that this has failed to be the solution you hoped for.  Your very methodical approach I am sure will eventually bear fruit.

I have a 6 month old 1.4 ES Jazz and have been thinking of your comments on the self centring - with my Jazz the self return after a 90 degree corner is hands free to a straight ahead position.  The wheel will also self return to centre if deflected off centre by as little as 2 inch at rim.  This is the performance of a 6 month 2000 Mile Jazz.  My 9 year old (but only 70000 miles) Civic was similar to the Jazz in this respect also.