Power Steering

[Bradley Judge]

Hi All,
Have a problem with the power steering on my 2005 1.4 i-DSI SE Manual, have noted previous postings which mention "sticky" steering and non self centering, but doesn't really cover what I have been experiencing, the best I can say is that the when driving a straight road at reasonable speed the steering wanders and needs continuous adjustment which means that you can never relax. I approached the Honda main dealer who advised I needed a new rack which is ridiculous as the car had only done 5K miles but is obviously out of warranty. The new rack has been fitted at a cost of £800 (Honda made a contribution of £700 due to the low mileage) but although it felt significantly better when first used it now feels as bad as it was when I purchased it second hand. Any comments on experiences / how to overcome this issue would be welcome. The next step at the moment appears to 'get rid' which is a shame as basically it a nice car which we bought to retire with, but now it lives mostly in the garage as we much prefer my wife's Fiat Panda to drive. Hope you can help. Brad

[guest3040]

Hi Bradley,
When i first took my Jazz out for a test drive i was quite shocked by how much steering input is needed to keep it in a straight line. It felt to me as if the steering became stiff/sticky/heavy once you centred it.
Every time i made an adjustment to the steering, it seemed to have moved too far causing the car to wander left or right, forcing me to constantly re-adjust the steering wheel.

I pretty much managed to cure this problem when i had the front geometry set up recently.
My car as standard had "toe in", which is when the leading edge of the front wheels point inwards.
Car manufacturers usually set the front toe in a few millimetres to make the car more stable in a straight line, but this usually leads to the steering feeling a little numb.

You probably already know, but this picture explains "toe in" and "toe out":



To improve the feeling of my steering, i had the toe set to the figures below.

Total toe: -2.0mm (Toe Out)
Half toe: -1.0mm (Toe Out)

I could have gone a bit more (-4.0mm total toe out for example), but the car may have started feeling a little unstable in a straight line.

If i were you, i'd get the front geometry reset to give you a little toe out and see how it feels. It's not going to cost you too much (approx £40), but it may just be what the car needs to make it feel better.

Steve.

[JazzyB]

First thing I would check is the wheel alignment

Also are both front tyres wearing evenly across the width?

[VicW]

The Jazz has electric power steering and most road tests report the steering as needing constant correction.
This appears to be the case with a lot of cars with electric power steering.
When I bought my first GD Jazz it was one of the first things I noticed but I found,with familiarisation I forgot about it.
I reckon that the steering on the GE was an improvement and my Honda contact reckons it is better still on the current model.

Vic.

[culzean]

We have two Jazz GD in the family and never noticed a problem with steering - could be down to tread pattern on the tyres as some are known to 'steer' better than others (directional stability). Always used Michelin Energy savers because they are quiet, last pretty well and apparently they must steer well !

Another thing is when modifying steering geometry it seems to me that the more toe in or toe out you have the more the tyre is trying to go 'sideways' as it rotates (it is not rolling truly parallel to the direction of travel of the car) - and this can only lead to two effects, more load on the steering components and more wear of the tyre. (this could be one reason why rear tyres last a lot longer than front tyres - rear wheels do not have toe in or out)

Camber and castor are probably more important than toe in setting how well a car steers and self centres and they do not affect tyre life.  Positive castor means that the contact patch of the tyre is behind the pivot point of the wheel hub and the wheel is continually trying to steer in a straight line, this is why too much castor can make the car reluctant to change direction and too little (or negative) can make it twitchy and have a tendency to wander.

[guest3040]

....when modifying steering geometry it seems to me that the more toe in or toe out you have the more the tyre is trying to go 'sideways' as it rotates (it is not rolling truly parallel to the direction of travel of the car) - and this can only lead to two effects, more load on the steering components and more wear of the tyre. (this could be one reason why rear tyres last a lot longer than front tyres - rear wheels do not have toe in or out)

Camber and castor are probably more important than toe in setting how well a car steers and self centres and they do not affect tyre life.  Positive castor means that the contact patch of the tyre is behind the pivot point of the wheel hub and the wheel is continually trying to steer in a straight line, this is why too much castor can make the car reluctant to change direction and too little (or negative) can make it twitchy and have a tendency to wander.

I'm afraid i will have to slightly dis-agree with you there, Culzean.

The rear suspension geometry of the GD Honda Jazz has both greater Toe and Camber.
Manufacturers design the majority (if not all) passenger cars to have more rear end grip and promote "safe" understeer.

Here are the settings used for checking the geometry on the GD Honda Jazz (taken from Honda's own workshop manual):

Front.
Caster: 2 degrees, 05' (+/- 1 degree)
Camber: 0 degrees (+/- 1 degree)
Toe: 0.00mm (+/- 3mm)

Rear.
Camber: -1.00 degrees (+/- 1 degree)
Toe in: 2.00mm (+/- 2mm)

The main reason why rear tyres last longer (on FF cars) is because the front tyres have to carry a greater load, brake harder, steer and transmit power to the ground.
Rear tyre life on a FF car has very little to do with suspension geometry.

Positive caster (as you mentioned) allows the steering to self centre, but Toe In and Toe Out can also greatly affect how a car behaves.

Toe in (front): Straight line stability, car takes longer to react when initiating a turn.
Toe out (front): Less stable in a straight line, car is constantly trying to initiate a turn.
Toe in (rear): Reduces oversteer, promotes understeer.
Toe out (rear): Reduces understeer, promotes oversteer.

Since changing the front geometry of my car from Toe In to Toe Out (still keeping within the limits specified by Honda), my steering feels a whole much better.

If you can get the geometry checked Bradley, i would be interested to hear what the settings are.

Steve.

[guest2898]

Just sounds like the tracking is badly out... my wifes GD '02 jazz drives great, even better now since all the tyres were changed at the weekend at kwik fit did the laser tracking on it.. she reports it to be driving like a new car... lol.

[guest1844]

I notice the sticking more on my winter tyres, which are narrower as well. Maybe the fatter wheels slightly increase the steering forces, masking the sticking.
I had my tracking adjusted a year ago, they did something as the wheel is now slightly off centre (even though they put the steering wheel locking thing on). I'm never quite sure of the competence of the tyre shop in these cases.
The make of tyre will surely make a difference.
If my understanding of physics is correct, you would think more toe out would dull the steering response. As you turned into a corner, the outside wheel will load up more, which because it is slightly toe out tends to lessen the corner slightly. Toe in would make it twitchy especially on the straight ahead, where a slight steering input will load up the outside wheel, which is toe'd in a bit so emphasing the corner.
a 2mm tolerance seems a lot. What you want is it just right. I wish I could do it myself - I'd take the time to get it spot on.

[guest1844]

In answer to the original question, I don't think the tyres or geometry affect the stickiness. You can feel it with the car stationary and engine off. Just gently start to turn the wheel. You feel a bit of springiness (maybe 1 or 2 degrees of rotation), then it suddenly moves. Same both ways. You can wiggle the wheel forward and back said couple of degrees with nothing getting to the road wheels. This springiness is I presume the torque sensor at the base of the steering column. Continue turning and as it moves you feel a notchiness, like gear teeth meshing. I presume this is the electric motor in the steering rack which will have a reduction gearbox. My deduction is there is nothing wrong with the torque sensor, but there is friction either in the motor/gearbox or maybe the bushes that support the rack internal to the rack's housing.
I've sat in my Volvo (hydraulic PS) and done the same test. With your little finger you can move the wheel slightly, absolutely no friction at all (it is 13 so maybe worn!). That car, on the open road has feather light steering on the straight ahead but also has a strong self-centering due to the camber/castor. You would describe its steering as heavy on fast corners, and let the wheel go it will whirl back to the straight ahead.

[Bradley Judge]

Hi All,

Had the steering checked out on computerised facility today, tyres (Bridgestone Potenza 185/55/R15) were found to be OK not warped or distorted in any way and running at correct pressures, they also found that all camber and castor angles are within factory tolerances, they apparently aren't adjustable in any case, so it was all down to wheel alignment to be adjusted. When checked these were set at nearside - 12' and offside + 11', so have had them reset at factory of 0 +/- 0 to see if any better, the tyre shop was reluctant to set at toe out of 2mm as  suggested as they would soon loose their inside edge. I must admit returning home driving on both town and motorway roads it did feel better. I am going to give it time for me to adjust to the new settings and see how it goes, if still not happy will try resetting on those recommended by Remould (Many thanks for your comprehensive information Steve). There is still a hint of minute correction required at straight ahead but nothing like before. so am reasonably happy with the result.
Thanks to all those who contributed / responded to my posting. Brad

[guest2662]

my jazz 1.4 2010, not one bit of wander at any speed, i can hold the steering wheel with one finger if i wanted to,i had a nissan note, that was prone to wander,

[chrisc]

I think its your tyres.  Are they worn evenly?  Is the pressure correct?  The toe-in value has been calculated by Honda engineers who you would presume know their business expertly.

[guest1521]

Need an alignment check? My '59' GE was wearing the front tyres excessively on the inside inch of tread. Had the toe adjusted for more toe-in (back to Honda spec), switched the evenly worn rear (Dunlops) to the front... and several thousand miles later they are wearing evenly.

STEERING noticeably improved for straightline stability, too.