Author Topic: Bad omen?  (Read 3900 times)

bamboo

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Bad omen?
« on: February 10, 2025, 11:42:38 PM »
Went to test drive MK4 at the weekend. Our bullet proof HRV overheated on the way. I pulled into a yard to get water to get me back to pick up our other car. After filling in usual paperwork proceeded to the car and the battery was dead! Salesman fixed it after 30 mins. Warned us of bad traffic. Sure enough it was awful. Inly got it iver 30mph briefly and then gave up. Checked MOT re ord online. It had disc issues so would need to have them fix before i purchased. It wasn't an uplifting experience and think someone is trying to tell me not to.

coldstart

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Re: Bad omen?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2025, 06:35:03 AM »
Did you announce your test drive? If you did it certainly doesn't make the seller look good!
(they obviously didn't check on the car before your arrival)

You didn't mention the model year of the MK4 so it might be up to five years old.
It isn't uncommon for hybrid (or electric) cars to develop issues with the discs over the years as they aren't as heavily used as in normal cars.

What I find disconcerting is the fact, that the selling party hasn't mended them already and is showing off a "broken" vehicule.
Again: Not the best sign for a reliable dealership in my book!

So: Don't let this discourage you from a MK4 Jazz! - It may just be sound advice to look at another car and especially another seller!

« Last Edit: February 11, 2025, 06:46:10 AM by coldstart »

Karoq

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Re: Bad omen?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2025, 08:20:20 AM »
If it was a Honda dealer i would definitely find another one!
Dip Mech Eng (automotive)

Lord Voltermore

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Re: Bad omen?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2025, 09:39:07 AM »
Sounds like it was the small,conventional , 12v battery that was flat. This powers the cars computer systems  which has to power up and make checks  before it 'authorises' the larger High Voltage battery to actually start the engine.  The checks normally take less than a second.
 
Its a known problem with hybrids (not just Honda) . Their 12v battery is much smaller than used  by 'normal' ICE cars  as it doesnt have to do the 'heavy lifting' of actually cranking the engine . But it does mean they can go flat if the car is was only  used infrequently for short journeys ,and especially if it has also sat for 2-3 weeks unused   on a used car lot, with maybe prospective customers  occasionally 'starting' the car for just a few seconds.   I believe from your other post you were test driving a particular 3 year old  used car  rather than one of the dealerships regularly used demonstrators.

It does mean the dealership were remiss in not keeping their used cars  properly charged up.  But its always been the case that  used car lots had a mobile 'jump starter' available. 

You will find other postings on this site  about the small battery going flat, and the precautions you can take.  I always carry a small power pack jump starter in the  car. I have never needed to use it in over 3 years.   There is truth in the old adage that 'they all do that'   .It need not put you off that car in particular or a Hybrid in general . But maybe the dealer would agree to a new battery as part of the deal.

Same with Brake discs .  These do tend to get some  surface rust  in the current   very damp weather.  Normally this quickly rubs off during a short drive  but might build up if the car is on the used car lot.   (also you dont tend to use brakes as heavily in a hybrid  )    . A bit of disc rusting might be mentioned as an 'advisory' on an Mot  but probably wouldnt fail, but the dealership might want to clean them up before delivery.  Again this may not be a reason to reject that particular car  but I can understand going with your instinct about the  car or dealership.

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bamboo

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Re: Bad omen?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2025, 09:44:56 AM »
Yes the test  was prearranged. It is a Honda dealership. Weird but he moved the car out from a line of them but then wouldn't start again. It is a 2021 car. I read you if you buy a spare tyre there is nowhere to keep it. My brother has a Jaguar and in trip to Wales had a blow out. A man from Jaguar had to come out to the middle of Wales with a spare. I am going off the new Jazz as much as like Hondas, and own 3.

bamboo

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Re: Bad omen?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2025, 09:53:06 AM »
Lord V, thanks for your reply.
That is poor re. the battery on hybrids.
The discs i would need to look at
I am a big fan of Honda and have 2 old Preludes (1986/7) and an old HRV with leather seats. That cost me £1k six years ago, replacing another i had since nearly knew. Great simple cars with very few issues. I can't get my head round spending £15k on a Jazz with 50k miles really. For the moment I will sit tight.

Lord Voltermore

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Re: Bad omen?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2025, 10:18:16 AM »
Yes the test  was prearranged. It is a Honda dealership. Weird but he moved the car out from a line of them but then wouldn't start again. It is a 2021 car. I read you if you buy a spare tyre there is nowhere to keep it. My brother has a Jaguar and in trip to Wales had a blow out. A man from Jaguar had to come out to the middle of Wales with a spare. I am going off the new Jazz as much as like Hondas, and own 3.

As well as the computer checks the 12v battery also has to activate a fairly heavy duty relay switch  to connect the HV battery. IIRC this requires about 30 amps to 'throw' the switch . Although this is much less than the 300 amps or so needed to crank an engine  its enough that flat battery may manage it once, but not a second time.

Many car in the last 5 years or so no longer come with a spare  wheel (even a 'spacesaver ) and quite a few ,like the Mk4 , no longer even have a spare wheel well. 

If its important to you  a few of us including me , do carry a full sized spare in the boot.  It will fit laid  flat in the boot  (and strapped down)  It takes up space of course  but still leaves quite a lot of space for luggage.   (More than I had on total   in my 2007 Yaris)    This post shows mine in situ
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=17164.15
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Jazzik

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Re: Bad omen?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2025, 10:41:19 AM »
Great simple cars with very few issues.

Great simple cars....
That's history. We are now buying AI on wheels...
If nothing goes right, go left!

bamboo

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Re: Bad omen?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2025, 11:23:02 AM »
Thanks for your update Lord V. I really enjoyed the process of buying my first HRV in 2001. Three door, silver and slick auto. I remember my young son said i should get leather seats and black windows. I did both. Cool looking and few issues. I took all the leather out and put it into the one i bought 6 years back. Planning trip around France and Spain (maybe) I thought maybe time for a newer model but still keep the HRV.

Lord Voltermore

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Re: Bad omen?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2025, 12:42:31 PM »
When I checked other alternatives prior to buying  my first mk 4 in 2021  I noticed that a VW dealer and one or two others had  their brand new showroom cars discreetly plugged in to a trickle charging system built in to the floor.  All the cars including 'normal' ICE cars, not just hybrids  or EV's  . Neither of the Honda dealers I visited had a floor system but quite likely occasionally put them on a  smart charger overnight. 

This surprised me at the time. I  have since read that pretty much ALL new cars now have many  computer systems ,key recognition systems , internet connectivity signals etc etc , running 24/7.  Even  when the car is switched off.  . There is a small but relentless parasitic drain on the battery.   Even a conventional car with a large  battery for starting its internal combustion engine may not start ,much sooner than was the case in 'the good old days'.  It can be as little as a month or even 2 weeks, especially if the car typically only gets infrequent or short runs. 
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bamboo

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Re: Bad omen?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2025, 01:08:13 PM »
I like your language...'a plastic drain'. Sums up the cost of buying a nearly new or new car! Can the battery not be disconnected when you lave it for some weeks? I would worry about leaving at Heathrow parking for some weeks only to find a immobile car on my arrival. I may look into Skoda...nice looking SUV. Lose value but cost less.
Having said that if i cant sell my Prelude my wife surprisingly she would happily go to Monaco in it!

Lord Voltermore

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Re: Bad omen?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2025, 02:32:44 PM »
I can understand those who prefer the relative simplicity of cars from a few years ago. Cars from the 2020's are more complex  and this can have downsides.  But I suggest being careful not to reject  the Jazz or any other model of car based on  a downside that may come to notice, without checking whether this is common to all cars  from the 2020's and unavoidable without  clinging to 20th century technology.

I dont think its the best solution, or advisable , to disconnect the 12v battery for long term parking.  I have a small power bank  jump starter which I keep in the car. This should be enough to 'jump start'  start the car  if the 12v battery has gone flat.  I charge mine about every 3 months  ,when its still about 75% charged.  Simple usb charger, either in the car or indoors. 

Here is an example from Amazon   but there are many other makes   from about £25 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/UTRAI-Portable-Starter-Battery-JS-Mini/dp/B0CPPF395Z/ref=asc_df_B0CPPF395Z?mcid=007200e957ae35bdabcf66fb1167ddf6&tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=696556563596&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5599533651209391081&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006907&hvtargid=pla-2275729418565&gad_source=1&th=1

Its physically small.  - see photos on the amazon listing.

If you are likely to leave the car unused  for more than 3 months while travelling  its only fair I mention another  potential disadvantage of hybrids  (and EV's.)

 Honda recommend  the car is driven   for at least 30 minutes once every 3 months.   You would need to arrange for someone to do this  . If its  family/friend they would need to drive the car.  Its not enough just to start the car and leave it running. (Although a garage or competent long term storage  storage facility may have special charging  equipment. ) The reason is the High voltage battery must pass through some charge and discharge cycles or it may deteriorate permanently . It would be VERY expensive to replace.   Disconnecting the HV  battery is not feasible and wouldnt help anyway.   
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bamboo

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Re: Bad omen?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2025, 05:01:29 PM »
Once again you are a fountain of knowledge which i am grateful for. I wasn't aware that the main batteries were very costly. I have an old SLK ( what a great car btw) and a battery about £70. So the new breed are hundreds?
I agree that one can get stuck in a time warp and reject modernity and 'improvements in technology' but perhaps it is too early to tell perhaps. As an aside, how great being able to have leather seats as an option in my HRV in 2001. From memory £500. Just come to me that the cloth seat had a cigarette burn and it was the salesman who suggested the leather. Still in great shape, which cloth wouldn't be. The Jazz had half leather and wasn't great quality and i prefer 100% of one or other. The Merc leather in 2 tone is something to behold. Funny but the Honda dealership is on a hill and the Jazz toiled going up. When we drove off later in the Merc it took it in its stride!

Jazzik

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Re: Bad omen?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2025, 05:12:28 PM »
I have an old SLK ( what a great car btw) and a battery about £70. So the new breed are hundreds?

To give you an idea: https://tdxltd.co.uk/products/honda-jazz-mk5-gr-1-5-hybrid-2020-2023-genuine-high-voltage-battery-unit
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Jazzfan49

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Re: Bad omen?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2025, 09:54:49 PM »
I have an old SLK ( what a great car btw) and a battery about £70. So the new breed are hundreds?

To give you an idea: https://tdxltd.co.uk/products/honda-jazz-mk5-gr-1-5-hybrid-2020-2023-genuine-high-voltage-battery-unit

Jazz is a modern small and efficient hybrid, while it has good all around performance it is not ever going to have the power and torque of a SLK.

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