Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure

[ColinB]

Do we know how many jazz were sold in Europe and how many had problems?              10 jazz, 100 jazz, 1000 jazz?     

It's a good question and one I asked myself a few months ago. How many cars will develop this fault? In short, is this a fault I am likely to get? One in ten, one in five, every car! The answer must be out there.

You’re unlikely to get any meaningful answer to that without access to Honda’s confidential data. But a totally unscientific guesstimate might be as follows:
1. Read through this thread and count how many people have reported the problem. From memory, I think it’s around 8 or 9.
2. In the “Which Mk4 Jazz do you own?” thread, there are 264 contributions, so that’s a rough estimate of the number of owners interested enough to contribute to the forum.
3. That suggests a failure rate of around 3-5%.

Of course there are probably lots of factors that would add bias to that estimate, eg faults only appearing after a certain time so many later cars might not have developed the fault yet. Or perhaps Honda have been fitting modified parts for a couple of years now.

[madasafish]

Honda Europe and Honda UK will know. According to both , it is1.not serious, 2 not a manufacturing defect and 3.Owners have to pay.

Don't expect any honest answers: obfuscation and lies are more likely.

[Hector]

To date there are 8-10 defective cars.

 A very small percentage compared to the total number of cars sold. 

Anyone who has different information should mention it.

[Nicksey]

To date there are 8-10 defective cars.

 A very small percentage compared to the total number of cars sold. 

Anyone who has different information should mention it.

Are you using numbers calculated from owners on this forum?

I know two other owners on Facebook who have had this problem, and they are not members of this group/forum.  How many other owners have experienced this issue, that don't belong to a social media group?

[Saycol]

Irrespective of the number of actual failures it cannot be an insignificant number. Honda organised a recall in Japan. Do they have more recalls in Japan than we do here? I doubt it. If it warrants a recall in Japan then the same should happen here. I’m sorry but Honda U.K. /Europe have made a conscious decision not to do a recall hoping on balance what they save financially will outweigh what they lose in customer satisfaction.

[Hector]

I can't understand why I would have to go to the garage, have to change something, on my car, because it has been a problem on 10-12 cars, but not on my car. 

My brother had a kidney transplant, do I have, to have a transplant too because I am his brother?

[Jazzik]

I’m sorry but Honda U.K. /Europe have made a conscious decision not to do a recall hoping on balance what they save financially will outweigh what they lose in customer satisfaction.

Sorry to ask, but is Saycol perhaps a member of the board of Honda U.K. /Europe? That position makes it possible for him to give us the above information first hand? Or is this just ehhh....

[Nicksey]

I can't understand why I would have to go to the garage, have to change something, on my car, because it has been a problem on 10-12 cars, but not on my car. 

My brother had a kidney transplant, do I have, to have a transplant too because I am his brother?

Where have you got this figure of 10 - 12 cars from?

[Lincolnshire Rambler]

Having today visited my Honda dealer for my first MOT on the Jazz i spoke with the service advisor re the brake simulator failure . He said they hadnt had any as yet but did know of the problem. Went onto say they had done a fair few left hand mirror replacements and air conditioner condensers across jazz and other hybrids. I extended my warranty for another two years and had a year no cost extension to breakdown and recovery . At next MOT it will be extended for another 12 months foc . So see what develops !

[canuhelpjazz]

Please can I ask how when ordering a new 2024 Honda Jazz Elegance in Red one can ensure the interior especially the cabin roof interior will be light grey and the cloth seats grey ?
It's impossible to find a Jazz elegance on a Vertu Honda dealership locally.
The only new models available to test drive are the Advance or the Sport.
There appears to be a plethora of used Ex and Cross stars with 20 21 22 reg on the lot.
Should I assume these are models that folks. have traded in as they approach end of warranty /PCP by folks who are worried that their model may succumb to the brake problem ?
......
Also seriously worried about possible lack of care from Honda after sales service
Can anyone advise ?
Thankyou for any feedback
[

I wouldn't know about the Elegance interior, but there is a red Crosstar in my dealers and it has the dark interior and seat fabric. My understanding was, the dark cars came with grey interiors and the light ones got black interiors. I have the EX Style in blue beam metallic, and it is in grey. A sunlight model I looked at came with black.
As to the plethora of 21/22 plates on the forecourt, maybe just people changing at the end of the lease/finance deal.
If you are concerned, ask the dealer and put him on the spot. Surely now, the simulator failure is common knowledge amongst dealerships.

Thankyou to everyone for their feedback
Have today reserved a used 22 plate Honda jazz hybrid which has less than 6000 miles on the clock and the top EX spec with heated seats etc.It is also the red colour we wanted and has silver gray cloth super comfy seats.So taking a calculated risk that this used car won't succumb to the brake servo problem.Only time will tell...

[Saycol]

I’m sorry but Honda U.K. /Europe have made a conscious decision not to do a recall hoping on balance what they save financially will outweigh what they lose in customer satisfaction.

Sorry to ask, but is Saycol perhaps a member of the board of Honda U.K. /Europe? That position makes it possible for him to give us the above information first hand? Or is this just ehhh....

Well, they have certainly made a decision not to do a recall. And from this forum, Facebook and other media they do have unsatisfied customers. Perhaps you can apply alternative rationale for their decision?
Oh, just to clarify, I do not hold any position with Honda!

[Spodric]

I wonder how many of those affected by this have reported it here  https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-recalls-and-faults/report-a-serious-safety-defect

This has been referred to before. From gov.uk :

A serious safety defect is something ...... that happens suddenly and without warning.

Things are not classed as a serious safety defect if ...... you’re warned about them by warning lights, noticeable changes in handling and unusual noises.

So far, all reported failures are preceeded by warning lights and messages, so probably don't meet the DVSA criteria for a "serious safety defect"

Honda have also stated in the letter reproduced here …
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=16448.msg144822#msg144822
… that this is not a safety issue.

“… we want to reassure you that this is not a safety defect.  The braking system will automatically default to a fail-safe mode which meets the braking distance regulations and ensure your vehicle can be stopped safely.
We recognise that the braking sensation will feel different, but the fail-safe mode means that your vehicle will operate with the required braking distance and stop.”

Presumably that’s what they’ll have told DVSA.

That seems somewhat disigenuous on Honda's part. When my Jazz developed this "brake feel simulator" total failure, the "fail-safe mode" meant no servo assistance at all. The brake pedal went down right to the floor before there was solid resistance. And I mean solid. No feel. Very little effect either.

I did try to drive the Jazz a short distance from its parking space. Eeek! It took extreme foot pressure on the brake pedal to bring the Jazz to a stop from about 5 mph after a distance of about 20 yards. I am quite fit for a pensioner but no way is my right leg strong enough to make the vehicle "operate with the required braking distance and stop" as Honda puts it.

If I couldn't manage, how could a woman driver possibly operate that foot brake without assistance. I don't call that "fail-safe" at all. The Jazz was undriveable. I would not have been able to drive it safely to my nearest Honda workshop, a distance of less than 10 miles. Through heavy urban traffic, without crashing? Absurd. Way too risky.

The AA had to recover the Jazz on a towing dolley because the AA's agent said it was "not driveable" and he put that in his Report.

The dash warning lights and accompanying "bong" sounds also indicated that other safety systems including ABS, and even steering assistance / driver safety aids were now inop.

"Fail-safe"? Really? That is utter rubbish IMO. I can't see how Honda can possibly prove it. Was a Jazz with "brake feel simulator" total failure tested independently at MIRA? Is there an independent engineer's Report that Honda can disclose?

[BobM]

Regarding the recall in Japan, I found this https://japaninspection.org/vehicle-recall-verification
and this https://www.mlit.go.jp/en/jidosha/index.html

I was surprised that the brake simulator issue is not listed, so I went back to the original website addressing it https://www.honda.co.jp/recall/auto/info/231208_683.html?fbclid=IwAR3cv03bAX-1RKirwgKYSeq-7FFvU2ViGMjQ_9fZdezR5K-HzNc6C38cmZ4

Looking at it again, this is listed as "Improvement Measures Notification Number: 683" and not "Recall notification number: xxxx". Looking at https://www.honda.co.jp/recall/ (the auto-translation is a bit confusing) I think a recall applies if there's non-compliance or a risk of non-compliance with safety standards by design/manufacture and improvement measures apply if the vehicle complies with safety standards, but there is a risk of non-compliance over time. This appears to be different from the UK DVSA system.

Having established that there is not a formal regulatory safety recall in Japan and unlikely to be a UK one, I thought I'd look at it from a different perspective. Starting with the number of eHEV Jazz cars, from https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?q=honda+jazz+i-mmd there were about 36,000 pre-facelift models registered between 2020 and 2024 (20,000 in 2020/21).

According to the Japanese report, Jazz/Fit models affected were manufactured between mid 2018 and early 2022. I think it's reasonable to assume that Honda record which batches of component parts go into their cars and they use "just-in-time" production methods. So, as the UK sales started in the first quarter of 2020, it is likely that the majority of brake simulators from the faulty batches were incorporated into non-UK cars and that there would be a diminishing number of parts from the faulty batches likely to be put in UK cars.  It may also be the case that not all parts in the batches were incorrectly assembled.

From Honda's perspective, recalling 20,000 pre-facelift Jazz cars to replace the brake simulator in each one could cost £40 million (at, say £2K per car). Having already established that this issue is unlikely to meet the DVSA criteria for a "serious safety defect", for Honda a voluntary recall of all cars may be seen as unnecessary and financially prohibitive.

Forum and Facebook posts report around a dozen failures of the brake simulator. There will be others, but Honda may have information to suggest that only a limited number of cars may include an incorrectly assembled  part from the identified batches. So for this exercise, say there are 100 actual and potential failures out there. Assuming Honda will want to maintain their reputation for reliability and customer satisfaction, if they were to address each failure as it is reported and change the brake simulator at no cost to the owner. At £2k each, this might cost Honda £200K - likely to be much more acceptable to the business even for 200/300 instances.

From a user's perspective though, the whole point of the brake simulator is to mimic the resistance of a conventional servo-assisted hydraulic system. As Spodric has just noted not having this familiar "feel" may in itself be a hazardous condition if nothing appears to be happening until the pedal hits the floor.

[aphybrid]

A more measured assessment, but hopefully everyone on forum gets fixed cost free.

Well done BobM

[Colstarr]

Being the owner of a  22 registered  Honda jazz crosstar  I've been  following the  brake simulator problem  from the first  page of the reported  fault.   Although  my own car hasn't  (yet) and might never suffer from  this issue. I'm  starting to  become  concerned about the brake problem as the warranty  is coming  to an end.
Aside from  a passenger  side mirror motor replacement ( a known defect)  and a camera  recall its  been very reliable  , my car's  warranty   expires  next May.
And quite  honestly  I  thought  8 months  later from the first reported  faults there would have  been a recall  by now.

Unfortunately  we are still being  kept  in the dark  about this problem.
I have sent emails  to Honda Customer care  , with no real clarity on this problem in their  replies.
I could  pay to extend  the warranty  to cover  this brake simulator problem,  you would normally  buy extra warranty  to cover the unexpected  happening, 
But this is a known defect   that Honda should   be recalling  and correcting .
So I have decided  to  trade my crosstar  in just before  the warranty  ends.
It's  an expensive  risk I'm not  prepared to  take.
Would   I buy another Honda?, definitely not ,  unless  clarity  of  what cars are affected by this problem.
 Customer care  is now ,a couldn't care less
Keep them in the dark and feed them BS attitude.
This issue  affects all mk4 owners because no one knows 100% if their  cars are  or aren't affected.
Hopefully  a very small  batch  of cars are  affected , and most owners   will  not  suffer  this problem .
But that  not knowing  if your  car  is  one of the unlucky  one's  will always be there.

In regards to  the  brake simulator  issue .
Today I  received  the following email from  Honda  UK,  I hope this will  ease any cost concerns  owners  have on the brake simulator problem  . Whilst  this does not address  what vehicles are affected.  At least the cost of the repair  is now covered by  Honda. Let's  hope this brake issue only affects  a small  amount of  cars.

Dear Mr. ***** *****
 
Thank you for contacting Honda UK.
 
As a gesture of goodwill, while our analysis is ongoing, we will ensure that the cost of the repair is covered by Honda (UK) and will instruct the retailer accordingly.
 
We are advising and would encourage any customers who experience the brake simulator concern with their vehicle to please contact their preferred Honda retailer so their vehicle can be booked in for diagnostics and repair. Their Honda retailer will make us aware if your vehicle has been diagnosed with a brake simulator failure.
 
We hope this provides you with some clarity on the situation however, if you have further questions, please do not hesitate to let us know.
 
Once again, thank you for contacting Honda (UK).
 
Kind regards,
 
Jack January
Customer Relations Specialist
Honda (UK)