Author Topic: Tracker insurance requirement invalidating warranty?  (Read 4502 times)

JasonH

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Tracker insurance requirement invalidating warranty?
« on: August 29, 2022, 08:00:28 PM »
Hi,

Hopefully this is the right place for this topic as it relates to Honda Jazz Hybrid, newly discovered susceptibility of 2022 model to keyless theft and requirement to fit a tracker.

So, having established and confirmed that I have indeed placed an order to buy a Honda Jazz Hybrid due November, my insurance company is making noises about needing a tracker fitted due to security issues. As I am half way through my policy I would prefer to do a change of vehicle and I guess if one company is going to ask for it, then sooner or later they all will. Starting to wonder if buying a keyless car is a good idea. No choice though on the Jazz.

Some digging online brings up a recently discovered (July 2022) security flaw with Hondas keyless security system, putting the Honda Jazz Hybrid at additional risk, aside from the known ones. Understandably, Honda are keeping this quiet and playing it down as much as possible.

Anyhow, I have been researching trackers and one company that I chatted to online advised that I check with my dealership as to whether installing a tracker would invalidate the vehicle warranty, further suggesting that different dealerships take different views…

I potentially need an S5 type tracker which isn’t cheap, plus a subscription for tracker monitoring. This is potentially getting a little out of hand cost wise…

If a tracker would invalidate the warranty then that is a big problem for me. Regardless, it seems that I will need to use a disklok or similar detracting from the convenience and ease of use of the vehicle.

I guess I could ask the forum is this make and model of car at risk, but if insurance companies won’t insure you unless you invest in a tracker and subscription payments, it’s a moot point.

Any thoughts on this please?

Also, any advice on which S5 tracker to go for and just as importantly, a decent company to install it in the South Yorkshire area? Of all the companies I looked at online and chatted with some, the work is sub-contracted. Thus, luck of the draw whom fits it and as time is money, a decent covert installation versus fitting it in the easiest, quickest and fewer material / less costly location but easier for a thief to discover is a concern.

I’ll try to add the link to the recently discovered security flaw.

Here it is - hope it’s not against the rules to post a link:-

https://www.securityweek.com/honda-admits-hackers-could-unlock-car-doors-start-engines

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2022/07/security-vulnerabilities-in-hondas-keyless-entry-system.html

Thanks,
Jason

 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 08:21:25 PM by JasonH »

shufty

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Re: Tracker insurance requirement invalidating warranty?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2022, 08:33:18 PM »
... None of the quotes I got mentioned the requirement for a tracker.

I'd just change insurers if they are demanding one.

JasonH

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Re: Tracker insurance requirement invalidating warranty?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2022, 09:05:49 PM »
If I weren’t halfway through my policy I would consider cancelling and taking out a new policy with a new insurer.

But as I am and if I were to cancel would get hardly anything back this doesn’t really suit. I prefer to pay the full premium in one go also, so would need to pay a years premium. And though it doesn’t affect me and I have maximum no claims, if I didn’t then I would miss out on a years no claims bonus. The change of vehicle fee is minimal but the insurance company want a tracker fitted in order to accept the vehicle for insurance purposes.

Besides, this keyless theft problem isn’t going away, theft rates are going up. I can readily see it becoming a requirement for most if not practically all owners of keyless ignition cars to have to pay out of pocket to boost the security of their vehicles to satisfy the insurance company’s desire to lower their risk / exposure to the insecurities of the keyless system.

I can also foresee the return to physical car keys and those with keyless being stigmatised in future years by the insurance companies. Especially given that thieves and technology will get cleverer and more sophisticated, whilst vehicle manufacturers may not continue to support or give up on supporting older vehicles or make it prohibitively expensive when owners have to pay out of pocket for software / hardware updates and patches. Hope I am proven wrong on that.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 09:09:06 PM by JasonH »

John Ratsey

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Re: Tracker insurance requirement invalidating warranty?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2022, 09:10:09 PM »
I consider that the Mk 4 Jazz has a built-in tracker. As long as it has been enabled by the dealer you can use the My Honda+ app to report the vehicle location. The reported position is very accurate if you have paid the subscription (free for one year from registration) but still reports which street the vehicle is in if you haven't paid the subscription. This tracking system isn't completely thief-proof as they could disconnect the battery (resulting in no power to the tracker) and then move the car by other means.

However, from what I've read about the security flaw it's a relay attack which relies on an active key fob being within range of the relay device (a common problem with many manufacturers' keyless systems). Some people keep their keys in Faraday pouches while I turn my fob off when the vehicle is parked. This is easily done by holding down both buttons for several seconds until a little LED flashes. The fob is then inactive until a button is pressed. This feature is mentioned somewhere in the handbook and I had to demonstrate it to my salesman as he wasn't aware of it. I hope he explained this useful security feature subsequent customers. It also saves draining the fob battery.
2025 Jazz Advance, previously 2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

JasonH

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Re: Tracker insurance requirement invalidating warranty?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2022, 09:25:34 PM »
Vehicle manufacturer standard production fitted trackers aren’t considered to be of a high enough security standard by insurance companies. Hence the requirement for independent Thatcham ratings and the higher ratings require that your tracker is monitored 24/7 in addition to an authorised driver card or mobile phone app present / running. Basically, a manufacturer fitted tracker will be fitted exactly the same way in exactly the same location in each vehicle, making it easy for thieves to both find and remove.

The keyless security flaw to which I linked is not totally overcome by a faraday pouch as at some point you need to take the fob out of the faraday pouch and transmit a signal to the car for the doors to open.

The security exploit was recently discovered July this year (2022). Something about being able to rollback and re-use previously transmitted valid codes at a later time / date. These valid codes are being captured and the thieves have found a way to fool the car into accepting their re-use. This is a new and recently discovered security exploit.



« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 09:30:27 PM by JasonH »

John Ratsey

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Re: Tracker insurance requirement invalidating warranty?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2022, 09:34:31 PM »
What are the theft statistics for Honda Jazzes? The vehicle is neither a magnet for joyriders (who wouldn't know what a tracker looks like) nor very attractive to those criminals who make a living from turning vehicles into spare parts. Also, while the thief can use the security flaw to gain entry to the vehicle then how does this make the tracker useful unless the business method is first load the vehicle onto a truck then use the security flaw to gain entry without damaging the vehicle?
2025 Jazz Advance, previously 2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

JasonH

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Re: Tracker insurance requirement invalidating warranty?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2022, 09:54:22 PM »
I don’t know the theft statistics for the Honda Jazz Hybrid. Car insurance companies know all the statistics however and it is on this they assess the insurance risks.

I do know that keyless theft of vehicles is on the rise and that it’s a game of cat and mouse between the thieves and manufacturers. Insurance companies assign group (risk) ratings to vehicles and those they deem too risky they either charge a fortune to insure and or impose other requirements such as trackers etc.

Reading through the forum, I note several threads regarding the high insurance group rating for the Honda Jazz, which don’t seem to stack up when the Jazz is compared to other makes / models, hot hatches etc.

A brand new Honda Jazz, modern hybrid technology, loaded with plenty of bells and whistles like the EX version would be quite tempting to a thief I would think. The sale of cloned, stolen cars as I understand is ongoing. Car image / portrayal / ownership audience is pretty much irrelevant.

It won’t be long before they’re stealing them and driving them away just for the lithium battery and the catalytic converter.

Not to mention if they’re that easy to steal then they’ll be taken just for a joy ride….

Gaining damage free access to the car is the first step. Blank keys can be programmed to work from the OBDP port, thus enabling a thief to drive away. It is then a tracker that looks for an authorised driver fob, card or authorisation from a phone app reports a potential theft to the tracking company / owner because the thief doesn’t have that. The tracker doesn’t stop the car being started and driven either with a stolen keyless fob or programmed blank keys.

Keyless cars appear to be the opposite of how they are portrayed. They are not as secure as manufacturers would like us to believe.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 10:08:32 PM by JasonH »

nowster

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Re: Tracker insurance requirement invalidating warranty?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2022, 10:36:15 PM »
I wonder if this is the short range "keyless" entry or the long range "push button" keyfob use.

Aha! https://rollingpwn.github.io/rolling-pwn/ It seems to be applicable to both.

It might be possible for Honda to send this out as an OTA update, or even to fix it as part of the front camera software update.

JasonH

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Re: Tracker insurance requirement invalidating warranty?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2022, 11:03:19 PM »
So as soon as your keyless entry fob is out of its faraday pouch and turned on, the moment it produces a signal or you press a button on the key fob that generates a signal, that signal can be grabbed and used to gain entry and start your car at a later time / date.

No wonder insurance companies are seeking the addition of trackers and the like. They are well in the know on this.

It might be possible to update via an OTA update - but if it is, will they though?

And if an OTA update isn’t possible, I strongly doubt that they’ll update the hardware or software manually.

This security flaw doesn’t just affect the Honda Jazz - it affects other models in Hondas range also and not just the U.K. so it’s a big problem.

When the exploit becomes more commonly known (and it won’t take the thieves long), no-ones car will be safe from theft or casual use / joy riding for kicks. It’s why I’m seeing more and more cars fitted with krooklocks and clubs etc. Devices I remember from the 1980’s…. and they’re no more effective than they were then either…

And make no mistake, like twist and go scooters are targeted and stolen for joy riding by the younger thieving fraternity because they’re so easy to ride, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if the Honda Jazz Hybrid was targeted for the same reason…

I remember buying a bright yellow elephant brand, steering wheel lock from Argos back in the 1980’s and a week or so later laughing when I read in a test of it and 10 other similar steering wheel locks, that it was removed in under 8 seconds… with none of the locks on test lasting more than 30 seconds.

Now I am reading car security advice saying don’t leave even a wire plugged into a USB port on show and better still leave your glovebox open to show they’re empty of contents. What’s the point in having a glovebox then?





« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 11:36:39 PM by JasonH »

Kremmen

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Re: Tracker insurance requirement invalidating warranty?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2022, 05:17:18 AM »
As posted, I have now got into the habit of turning my fob off when parked up at home, even though it's garaged.

When out and about, with the key active, the range to open the doors is about 1 metre/yard so they would need to be very close to grab a signal.

If you look on Wikipedia the typical keyless range is 5 to 20 metres.

Keyless is a problem and I'm surprised manufacturers continue with it.

Modern car electrics are very sensitive and I can understand manufacturers not wanting third parties fitting additional equipment.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2022, 05:35:13 AM by Kremmen »
Let's be careful out there !

JasonH

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Re: Tracker insurance requirement invalidating warranty?
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2022, 07:44:37 AM »
So are you suggesting that it’s better to have the keyless feature enabled so that the car automatically unlocks as you approach, as opposed to disabling this feature and using the buttons on the keyless key fob to lock and unlock? I understand that you’re powering off the key when you’re not near your car and that’s a measure I will take also, but it doesn’t entirely overcome the problem. Because I’ve read that it’s safer / more secure to disable the keyless feature (if possible) and use the buttons on the keyless key fob.

At some point your key has to be enabled to access or lock your car. At this point the key fob has to be powered up, not in a faraday bag and either the keyless key fob itself is emitting a continuous signal or you are pressing a button on the key fob that emits a signal. Either way, that signal is publicly broadcast and with the newly discovered security flaw, a thief captures the code and can use it moments or days later to steal your vehicle. Scenario, you park at a boot fair. Lots of people milling around. You exit the car, car automatically locks or you press the lock button on the keyless key fob. Turn off key and or place into faraday pouch. Walk away. On your return, car is gone. Simple as that. You’ve done everything correctly and taken precautions, but still, keyless technology is insecure and has been exploited and your car is gone, likely to never be seen again.

The electronic devices used to commit keyless key crime are generally overt and small. Recently, as part of an overall professional criminal gang that were caught and arrested, these electronics were found disguised as Nintendo game boys, but often disguised as mobile phones, tablets etc.

And it wouldn’t be difficult for someone keeping an eye out at the local supermarket car park to follow you into the store (if you haven’t disabled the key fob or aren’t using a faraday pouch) or walk past your car having observed you parking it, to then walk past within a metre whilst you’re getting out and obtain the code. Don’t forget, someone could have a relay box concealed on their person and approach you innocuously - have you got some change, can you tell me how to get to…. and their partner in crime from a distance is recording the signal sent to them via the relay box.

In real life if someone walks past holding a gameboy and comes within a metre of you, are you going to challenge them? Would you even notice? Thieves will quickly work out the places where people let their guard down or where they blend in without being noticed.

Using a faraday bag or turning off the key helps, but the new security flaw means it’s easier than ever for someone to gain access to and steal a keyless car. Insurers know it, the Police know it, but the car manufacturers are burying their heads in the sand…

The problem is, if you want peace of mind and not be concerned with fitting additional manual security which anything decent is most likely heavy, cumbersome, fiddly and not so easy to store, taking up valuable space in the car, you’re being inconvenienced every time you use your car. My Wife would be physically unable to fit a disklok for example so that’s a problem.

The electronic devices used to commit keyless key crime are generally overt and small. Recently, as part of an overall professional criminal gang that was caught and arrested, these electronics were found disguised as Nintendo game boys, but often disguised as mobile phones, tablets and the like.

So back to peace of mind. With the new security flaw discovers in July of this year (2022) someone can electronically steal the code(s) your keyless key fob emits (and at some point your key fob has to be turned on) and days later at their convenience come back and fool the car into accepting the code(s) that were stolen and drive away in your car.

And I agree I am not happy about fitting a tracker to the vehicle, but if my current insurer insists and the writing is on the wall that before not too long all insurers will insist, then fitting a tracker becomes a necessity. Then on top of that it invalidates your vehicle warranty….


« Last Edit: August 30, 2022, 08:11:33 AM by JasonH »

Kremmen

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Re: Tracker insurance requirement invalidating warranty?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2022, 08:20:51 AM »
Exactly

As soon as you touch either button keyless is active again.

I disable/enable mine indoors but leave it active when out as the buttons have a far greater range than the keyless feature.

Is your experience one insurance company or many as keyless is a problem on many cars now, more so the big expensive Merc, Jag, Range Rover, etc

Let's be careful out there !

aphybrid

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Re: Tracker insurance requirement invalidating warranty?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2022, 09:17:04 AM »
What are the theft statistics for Honda Jazzes? The vehicle is neither a magnet for joyriders (who wouldn't know what a tracker looks like) nor very attractive to those criminals who make a living from turning vehicles into spare parts. Also, while the thief can use the security flaw to gain entry to the vehicle then how does this make the tracker useful unless the business method is first load the vehicle onto a truck then use the security flaw to gain entry without damaging the vehicle?

attached from i today may explain insurance approach and debunk views on Jazz 'desirability' for thieves/joyriders.

Beaver

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Re: Tracker insurance requirement invalidating warranty?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2022, 09:23:44 AM »
OP - If you're so worried about this issue, perhaps you could research purchasing a different car that doesn't feature wireless entry.   When I park in any location, I quickly become very aware of my surroundings and if people are in vehicles nearby.   If not happy, I go somewhere else.   Previous work dictates my caution, and it's firmly ingrained.   I switch off the remote as soon as I lock up and also use a Faraday pouch as a back-up.   I have used a Disklock since 2016 and don't find it either intrusive or an inconvenience.

If a thief really wants your car, the thief will take your car, whatever it may be.

Karoq

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Re: Tracker insurance requirement invalidating warranty?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2022, 11:07:03 AM »
Obviously not aware of where the OP lives. Perhaps in a hugh risk area?
In Poole I would consider he is 'overthinking' the possible problem.

When I bought the HR-V e:HEV I was horrified at the ridiculous insurance rating of 31 so I punted about with the Meerkats and NOT ONE insurance company required a tracker.
By the time OP has fanny'd about buying and fitting a tracker, let alone paying an annual sub. I would have thought it would be cheaper to dump his current insurer.

After a lot of hunting and getting ridiculous quotes starting at £50 up to God knows what. I managed to get an Aviva (my then current insurer) policy for £285. Only a few quid more than my previous Karoq.

My doors don't unlock on approach, I wasn't even aware it can be done on the
HR-V. I rarely touch the fob other than opening the boot lid which can be done from at least 20 yards away!! I touch the door handle sensor to lock/unlock.
Dip Mech Eng (automotive)

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