Rear spindle nut replacement

[seasidesoulish]

Hey thanks everyone, I just got back here & saw all your comments, not getting email notifications it seems.

I think I'll see if I can restart the nuts in a different place so the stake will be new as one of you mentioned.  I just need to find a nice flat place to do the job now & a dry day :-)

Thanks again

[embee]

They'll be a single start thread, so they won't re-start at a different angle on an existing stub axle. That's why I suggested swapping sides if the old stake points come in an inconvenient place, the chances of both sides being exactly the same are slim (though not impossible).

[seasidesoulish]

They'll be a single start thread, so they won't re-start at a different angle on an existing stub axle. That's why I suggested swapping sides if the old stake points come in an inconvenient place, the chances of both sides being exactly the same are slim (though not impossible).

Ah ok.  It seems £10 each isn't particularly expensive for such a nut... I suppose I'm just out of touch.  I'll probably just have to spend the cash.  Blast!

[culzean]

They'll be a single start thread, so they won't re-start at a different angle on an existing stub axle. That's why I suggested swapping sides if the old stake points come in an inconvenient place, the chances of both sides being exactly the same are slim (though not impossible).

Ah ok.  It seems £10 each isn't particularly expensive for such a nut... I suppose I'm just out of touch.  I'll probably just have to spend the cash.  Blast!

From what I remember there is a keyway in the shaft thread and you just tap the thinner part of the nut ( the collar ) into the keyway,  I re-used the nuts no problem,  the amount the nut screws down the shaft is set by the thickness of the bearings and the spacer ( which sets pre-load on bearings, the bearings are non-adjustable deep groove ball bearings ) - I used Honda ones and the dimensions were very tightly controlled and pretty much lined up exactly with previous position of staking.   You do not need to remove hub to replace brake shoes, you only remove the hub if the bearings are shot.   If you do decide to remove the hub, remember it is torqued up to 160 Nm,  so the rear wheel needs to be on the ground with weight on it to unscrew and re-tighten nut - don't attempt to do it with wheel off the floor ( I used 600mm breaker bar with a SINGLE HEX socket to protect the nut from rounding corners of nuts off,  which a double hex socket may do  )

[seasidesoulish]

 [quote/]
From what I remember there is a keyway in the shaft thread and you just tap the thinner part of the nut into the keyway,  I re-used the nuts no problem,  the amount the nut screws down the shaft is set by the thickness of the bearings and the spacer ( which sets pre-load on bearings ) - I used Honda ones and the dimensions were very tightly controlled and pretty much lined up exactly with previous position of staking.   You do not need to remove hub to replace brake shoes, you only remove the hub if the bearings are shot.
[/quote]

Wait, are you saying the drums come off without removing the hub nuts?  That would be fantastic.
I haven't done drum brakes since my 68 beetle about 15 years ago & that had a castle nut with pin working as both axle nut & drum nut, from the service manual pics I thought the jazz might be similar

[culzean]

From what I remember there is a keyway in the shaft thread and you just tap the thinner part of the nut into the keyway,  I re-used the nuts no problem,  the amount the nut screws down the shaft is set by the thickness of the bearings and the spacer ( which sets pre-load on bearings ) - I used Honda ones and the dimensions were very tightly controlled and pretty much lined up exactly with previous position of staking.   You do not need to remove hub to replace brake shoes, you only remove the hub if the bearings are shot.

Wait, are you saying the drums come off without removing the hub nuts?  That would be fantastic.
I haven't done drum brakes since my 68 beetle about 15 years ago & that had a castle nut with pin working as both axle nut & drum nut, from the service manual pics I thought the jazz might be similar
[/quote]



The brake drums fit onto the hub flange  using the same 4  off 12mm studs as the wheels fit onto ( there are 12mm clearance holes in the drum, so the drum just pulls off after you have removed a  couple of 6mm countersunk screws that hold drum onto flange ( you will probably need an impact driver to get them out, I normally try to tighten them first to break the rust and maybe stretch screw a bit, before I reverse the impact driver to unscrew them - you may have to drill screws out as a last resort, it is up to you whether you replace them or not, as once the wheel is back on and held with the 4 x 12mm wheelnuts the drum is going nowhere ),  there are also a couple of M8 ( bog standard 8mm thread )  threaded holes in the drum, which you can use to push the drum off the flange ( this is common on Honda ) I use a couple of M8 hex head or Allen bolts - sometimes the holes are rusty,  you may need an M8 plug tap ( the one with the least taper on it ) to clean the thread,  put some grease on the bolt thread to make it easier to turn .   

I don't think there is any way of slackening off the self-adjuster to get the shoes away from drum  ( some cars have a hole in the brake backplate - blanked off with a rubber bung to give access to mechanism ).  The handbrake cable tensioner is under the rear of centre console that runs between driver and passenger seat, couple of screws ( two screws on skirt of console and maybe one screw in bottom of the recess where ashtray fits

[seasidesoulish]

From what I remember there is a keyway in the shaft thread and you just tap the thinner part of the nut into the keyway,  I re-used the nuts no problem,  the amount the nut screws down the shaft is set by the thickness of the bearings and the spacer ( which sets pre-load on bearings ) - I used Honda ones and the dimensions were very tightly controlled and pretty much lined up exactly with previous position of staking.   You do not need to remove hub to replace brake shoes, you only remove the hub if the bearings are shot.

Wait, are you saying the drums come off without removing the hub nuts?  That would be fantastic.
I haven't done drum brakes since my 68 beetle about 15 years ago & that had a castle nut with pin working as both axle nut & drum nut, from the service manual pics I thought the jazz might be similar

The brake drums fit onto the hub flange  using the same 4  off 12mm studs as the wheels fit onto ( there are 12mm clearance holes in the drum, so the drum just pulls off after you have removed a  couple of 6mm countersunk screws that hold drum onto flange ( you will probably need an impact driver to get them out, I normally try to tighten them first to break the rust and maybe stretch screw a bit, before I reverse the impact driver to unscrew them - you may have to drill screws out as a last resort, it is up to you whether you replace them or not, as once the wheel is back on and held with the 4 x 12mm wheelnuts the drum is going nowhere ),  there are also a couple of M8 ( bog standard 8mm thread )  threaded holes in the drum, which you can use to push the drum off the flange ( this is common on Honda ) I use a couple of M8 hex head or Allen bolts - sometimes the holes are rusty,  you may need an M8 plug tap ( the one with the least taper on it ) to clean the thread,  put some grease on the bolt thread to make it easier to turn .   

I don't think there is any way of slackening off the self-adjuster to get the shoes away from drum  ( some cars have a hole in the brake backplate - blanked off with a rubber bung to give access to mechanism ).  The handbrake cable tensioner is under the rear of centre console that runs between driver and passenger seat, couple of screws ( two screws on skirt of console and maybe one screw in bottom of the recess where ashtray fits
[/quote]

Well that's very good news, thanks very much culzean you are a star!

It's a shame the service manual doesn't make this clear but at least you guys are here to help, much appreciated.

 

[culzean]

The rear brake shoes on my first ( 1996 ) Civic lasted 120,000 miles before they started to cause problems with handbrake not holding properly ) there was still quite thickness of friction material left but the system had run out of adjustment.  After fitting new shoes and cleaning the self adjuster ratchets out the instructions were to turn the adjusters back, slack off the handbrake cable adjustment and start engine and pump the brake pedal to index the ratchets  ( the ratchets work when the shoes are moved by the hydraulics,  not by the handbrake mechanism ) - then adjust cable to about 6 to 7 clicks,  you may have to adjust cable again,  but only time will tell.

[seasidesoulish]

The rear brake shoes on my first ( 1996 ) Civic lasted 120,000 miles before they started to cause problems with handbrake not holding properly ) there was still quite thickness of friction material left but the system had run out of adjustment.  After fitting new shoes and cleaning the self adjuster ratchets out the instructions were to turn the adjusters back, slack off the handbrake cable adjustment and start engine and pump the brake pedal to index the ratchets  ( the ratchets work when the shoes are moved by the hydraulics,  not by the handbrake mechanism ) - then adjust cable to about 6 to 7 clicks,  you may have to adjust cable again,  but only time will tell.

Thanks, that's very helpful.  I'm only doing this job because the handbrake is at about 11 clicks with an MOT approaching & I thought it'd be best to replace the shoes rather than adjust the cable because, on my bug, if I did that it would be using the handbrake cable as rear brake adjuster which is obviously not good.
Are you able to adjust the handbrake without effecting the foot brake on the jazz?

[culzean]

The rear brake shoes on my first ( 1996 ) Civic lasted 120,000 miles before they started to cause problems with handbrake not holding properly ) there was still quite thickness of friction material left but the system had run out of adjustment.  After fitting new shoes and cleaning the self adjuster ratchets out the instructions were to turn the adjusters back, slack off the handbrake cable adjustment and start engine and pump the brake pedal to index the ratchets  ( the ratchets work when the shoes are moved by the hydraulics,  not by the handbrake mechanism ) - then adjust cable to about 6 to 7 clicks,  you may have to adjust cable again,  but only time will tell.

Thanks, that's very helpful.  I'm only doing this job because the handbrake is at about 11 clicks with an MOT approaching & I thought it'd be best to replace the shoes rather than adjust the cable because, on my bug, if I did that it would be using the handbrake cable as rear brake adjuster which is obviously not good.
Are you able to adjust the handbrake without effecting the foot brake on the jazz?

If handbrake is working OK and holding the car and the only problem is too many clicks you may only need to adjust the cable....

I had to adjust handbrake cable a couple of times on my 1996 Civic and our first ( 53 plate Jazz ) - adjusting the handbrake does not affect the footbrake,  I only adjusted the handbrake cable to reduce number of clicks the lever was moving.  If you decide just to tighten the cable ( as I said before the adjuster is inside the car, under the rear of centre console )  - there is a single threaded piece coming from the handbrake lever and this joins on to a pivoting crossbar piece with each end of crossbar going to LH wheel and the other end to RH wheel ( the pivot is to allow an equal pull on each cable ) - from memory adjustment is M6 thread ( 10mm A/F spanner,  I had a box spanner that allowed the extra length of thread to go inside the spanner and still reach the nut ).   You will have to check size of nut by taking a peek under the rear of console,  you can lift the console up enough to access adjuster, I think I used to prop it up with something because it is annoying when it keeps falling down while you are trying to work.

I have to say that drums make a better handbrake than discs,  with a brake adjusted on the Civic and early Jazz drums I could lock the rear wheels when car was moving - that will never happen with rear disc handbrake.

[seasidesoulish]

The rear brake shoes on my first ( 1996 ) Civic lasted 120,000 miles before they started to cause problems with handbrake not holding properly ) there was still quite thickness of friction material left but the system had run out of adjustment.  After fitting new shoes and cleaning the self adjuster ratchets out the instructions were to turn the adjusters back, slack off the handbrake cable adjustment and start engine and pump the brake pedal to index the ratchets  ( the ratchets work when the shoes are moved by the hydraulics,  not by the handbrake mechanism ) - then adjust cable to about 6 to 7 clicks,  you may have to adjust cable again,  but only time will tell.

Thanks, that's very helpful.  I'm only doing this job because the handbrake is at about 11 clicks with an MOT approaching & I thought it'd be best to replace the shoes rather than adjust the cable because, on my bug, if I did that it would be using the handbrake cable as rear brake adjuster which is obviously not good.
Are you able to adjust the handbrake without effecting the foot brake on the jazz?

If handbrake is working OK and holding the car and the only problem is too many clicks you may only need to adjust the cable....

I had to adjust handbrake cable a couple of times on my 1996 Civic and our first ( 53 plate Jazz ) - adjusting the handbrake does not affect the footbrake,  I only adjusted the handbrake cable to reduce number of clicks the lever was moving.  If you decide just to tighten the cable ( as I said before the adjuster is inside the car, under the rear of centre console )  - there is a single threaded piece coming from the handbrake lever and this joins on to a pivoting crossbar piece with each end of crossbar going to LH wheel and the other end to RH wheel ( the pivot is to allow an equal pull on each cable ) - from memory adjustment is M6 thread ( 10mm A/F spanner,  I had a box spanner that allowed the extra length of thread to go inside the spanner and still reach the nut ).   You will have to check size of nut by taking a peek under the rear of console,  you can lift the console up enough to access adjuster, I think I used to prop it up with something because it is annoying when it keeps falling down while you are trying to work.

I have to say that drums make a better handbrake than discs,  with a brake adjusted on the Civic and early Jazz drums I could lock the rear wheels when car was moving - that will never happen with rear disc handbrake.

Well this gets better & better!  I'll have a go adjusting the handbrake cables first then & keep the shoes for a summer job if it works.

Thanks again for all your advice