Author Topic: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch  (Read 25174 times)

bobby boy

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #90 on: September 02, 2021, 04:33:40 PM »
As far as I am aware, E10 petrol is not suitable for small petrol engines in mowers and other small appliances. I would be reluctant to use it in a car that was rarely used, or stored for long periods of time.

Jocko

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #91 on: September 02, 2021, 05:25:31 PM »
I will buy 97 or 99 RON for my Briggs Stratton mower. Get the grass cut in half the time!

Kremmen

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #92 on: September 02, 2021, 05:31:47 PM »
Half cut sounds better
Let's be careful out there !

culzean

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #93 on: September 02, 2021, 05:43:22 PM »
They were saying on the news that E10 may cause issues in petrol mowers when left standing over winter.

Makes you wonder for us low mileage drivers. Presumably driving helps slosh it about and mix it up again ?

Use this 'StaBil'  in motorbikes and mower etc over winter, worked so far with E5 - supposed to stop or slow down water absorption / phase separation and generally stop fuel from going 'stale'  -  lot of other bikers use it as well in places like USA that have been using ethanol longer than UK has, and in greater quantities ( because the corn lobby wanted to sell more corn )..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/302607331837?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=7101533165274578&mkcid=2&itemid=302607331837&targetid=4585169652812021&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=412354547&mkgroupid=1305120599331881&rlsatarget=pla-4585169652812021&abcId=9300541&merchantid=87779&msclkid=771468f221c71d57e26409c2dfe66b3b
« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 05:57:24 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

culzean

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #94 on: September 03, 2021, 08:30:34 AM »
The story behind ethanol in fuel is more complicated than it seems.   Ethanol is the cheapest octane booster,  the 'corn lobby' in USA also saw a chance to boost their profits, by turning over land from other crops and ploughing up prairies to plant more corn and guarantee  a growing and lucrative market.  As the MPG of cars improves and less petrol ( gasoline ) sold, the corn lobby wants to keep increasing the amount mixed with fuels to keep their profits rising.  Environmentalists actually hate ethanol / corn because it causes massive land degradation and gives nowhere for wildlife to live in the vast mono-crop deserts.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/02/10/466010209/the-shocking-truth-about-americas-ethanol-law-it-doesnt-matter-for-now?t=1630653675291
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

JimSh

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #95 on: September 03, 2021, 10:01:00 AM »
The story behind ethanol in fuel is more complicated than it seems.   Ethanol is the cheapest octane booster,  the 'corn lobby' in USA also saw a chance to boost their profits, by turning over land from other crops and ploughing up prairies to plant more corn and guarantee  a growing and lucrative market.  As the MPG of cars improves and less petrol ( gasoline ) sold, the corn lobby wants to keep increasing the amount mixed with fuels to keep their profits rising.  Environmentalists actually hate ethanol / corn because it causes massive land degradation and gives nowhere for wildlife to live in the vast mono-crop deserts.


As long as it's made from waste, as TnTkr says, and reduces use of fossil fuels it will be a good thing but to use agricultural land to grow crops specifically to manufacture it or to manufacture it from hydrocarbons (hydrolysis of ethene) makes no sense.
I suspect a lot of greenwashing here too.

embee

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #96 on: September 03, 2021, 12:02:50 PM »
For it to absorb moisture from the atmosphere it has to be exposed. In a sealed container or a petrol tank the volume above the liquid is fuel vapour, there is effectively no "air" in a fuel tank, and thus no atmospheric moisture. Modern fuel tanks in cars are not "open" to atmosphere, they will pretty much always have a slight positive pressure of vapour.

Degradation by other means is a different issue, and stabilisers can help with this. The best solution is to either empty it or fill it completely, bulk fuel degradation is significantly reduced. Carbs tend to be the biggest problem, small jets and open to atmosphere. I usually drain the carbs and fill the tank on bikes for winter.
Mowers are easier, just drain everything, usually not difficult. If I am called to a mower which won't start in spring, I usually just try some brake cleaner down the intake first, the issue is often simply lack of volatility to get it going. Once fired it will often continue on the old fuel. Then just add as much fresh fuel as you can and it's usually fine. They usually only form the dreaded jelly if left for years rather than months.

Jocko

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #97 on: September 03, 2021, 03:09:33 PM »
I find the time between the last cut and the following year's first cut doesn't warrant draining down the mower (certainly not in this part of the country), and I usually find it starts first pull in the Spring.

culzean

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #98 on: September 03, 2021, 03:50:38 PM »
I find the time between the last cut and the following year's first cut doesn't warrant draining down the mower (certainly not in this part of the country), and I usually find it starts first pull in the Spring.

I used to have a nightmare starting both my carbed motorbike and the mower come mowing and riding season,  then adding redex in autumn made life much easier,  letting fuel in carbs dry out is asking for trouble ( nothing to do with ethanol though) as the resulting  lacquer can stick floats and block jets.  Now use StaBil over winter and redex during the year.  Neighbour had to strip his mower carb down for a massive clean a few years ago come spring, showed absolutely no sign of wanting to start, I gave him a bottle of redex and his mower been fine since.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Kremmen

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #99 on: September 09, 2021, 10:54:52 AM »
Can I come as a non expert ......

The Jazz is listed as 104gsm or whatever the letters are.

With E10 supposedly pushing out less nasty stuff could that figure drop below the magic 100 ?
Let's be careful out there !

Jazzik

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #100 on: September 09, 2021, 09:17:32 PM »
Ever heard about NOx, Gamifier?
If nothing goes right, go left!

Deejay

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #101 on: September 09, 2021, 09:21:24 PM »
Can I come as a non expert ......

The Jazz is listed as 104gsm or whatever the letters are.

With E10 supposedly pushing out less nasty stuff could that figure drop below the magic 100 ?

Unfortunately this performance is far from being cleaner than new generation diesel engines. With the new mild hybrid technology and particle filters you easily get down to 80gsm. I highly respect car manufacturers that keep doing research and development to come up with better diesel engines. They really succeeded in all eco tests without cheating! That’s not very good news for Honda

Well it’s quite rare that I see such a lack of technical knowledge.

1. 80 gsm is a grade of paper
2. Particulate filters oddly enough filter out particulates not CO2
3. Mild hybrid isn’t as efficient as full hybrids (like the Jazz Mk4)
4. Diesels still adversely affect human health far more than equivalent petrol engines

I would say it’s actually good news for Honda.

DERMOT

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #102 on: September 09, 2021, 10:47:05 PM »
@kremmen has a point. The emissions should change a little. My understanding is incr in ethanol increases bmep and thermal efficiency  e.g. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1687814020943356
But the net CO2 drops, as the 10% ethanol is counted as renewable. There used to be a 100 g/km cut off for low car tax, and so incentive to tune from 104. But I think no longer.

I doubt there is any ongoing diesel development for passenger cars, sure I've seen articles that psa and Mercedes have stopped, looking at tier 1 suppliers, like Bosch, there is a lot of ev drivetrains and safety, less on engines.

DERMOT

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #103 on: September 09, 2021, 11:25:26 PM »
As a Ford aside, and how immutable engine tech changes ..
As a student in the 90s, lean burn petrol was the way fwd. Toyota, honda all had cracking high eff engines.
My school done turbulent flow models esp on 2 stroke, and our lecturer was ex Ford where he was working on new 2 stoke engine for fiesta/ka  .then  Emissions and so cat converters took precedence over thermal efficiency. and Ford relaunched pushrod Kent engine.
So the raw efficiency of diesel may not not be enough to survive despite all the research of the last 15, 20 yrs.

Anyone passing in Belfast should look in Ashby lobby for cool 2 stroke Ford and Jag engines. If staring at engines is your thing.
The Jag was 1.5 V6, and truly diminutive

https://www.whichcar.com.au/features/why-the-australian-orbital-two-stroke-engine-never-took-off
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/08/lotus-qub-and-j.html



E27006

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #104 on: September 10, 2021, 01:53:05 AM »
I recall the Ford Orbital 2-stroke engine of the late 1980s,  some were said to on trial in Essex fitted to Police patrol cars,
I think one of the issues leading to cancellation was excessive Nox emissions in the exhaust, since regulations tolerated high Nox levels back then, they must have been very high. 

The Orbitel was intended for the Ford Ka, which ended up with the old fashioned pushrod engine dating back to the 1950s
« Last Edit: September 10, 2021, 01:59:53 AM by E27006 »

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