Author Topic: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?  (Read 783 times)

robertjazz

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2020, 09:19:02 AM »
Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions.  :)

Based on the info you have posted here, the fuel economy does seem to not be in the correct range even with my usage. So I'll do further investigation on it.

Some additional info/questions:
-Yes, the car has a VTEC engine with the conventional auto gearbox. Does anyone here drive auto?

-The spark plugs (there are four of them according to the service invoice) were replaced only last August 12, 2019. So it seems unlikely that they are the cause of the issue?

-There are two filters in the service manual that might be the air filter, can you please point out which one exactly is the air filter? There is a "dust and pollen filter" that was last replaced on August 12, 2019, and there is an "air cleaner element" that was last replaced on January 10, 2018.

-For the battery, it was last replaced on December 23, 2017, and it was last tested on June 29, 2019. The result said "good". However, I did have issues with the EPS when doing parking maneuvers:https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=11297.0. I didn't do anything to fix it, I just avoided the said maneuvers.

-For the binding brakes, should there something unusual that I would feel while driving? Or could the issue be there but undetected?

-For driving style, I think I do have a tendency to brake more often than necessary. I'm working on minimizing it.

-The air conditioner is always turned on when I am driving. The settings vary depending on how hot it is outside.

-The car is out of sync with the maintenance schedule. The maintenance schedule in the service manual is supposed to be every 6 months OR 10,000 km. The previous owner just had it serviced based on the number of kilometres.  For example, the major service that should have been done in 72 months or 120,000 km hasn't been done yet because the car has only traveled 97,528 km in the past 12 years.

Another thing I noticed is that when going up a slope, even if it is not that steep, the car doesn't seem to want to shift. The RPM is "stuck" at around 3000-4000. I have to step hard on the accelerator to be able to get it to shift. The problem with doing that is there is a burst of power, and if there is another car upfront, I have to press the brakes again to decelerate.  I wonder if these factors are negatively affecting the fuel economy as well?


I will have the car checked by a mechanic, but would be great to get your feedback on the items above.

sparky Paul

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2020, 09:51:09 AM »
A problem with the auto gearbox could certainly affect your fuel consumption, and that doesn't sound like normal behaviour.

Jocko

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2020, 09:52:10 AM »
If I was going up a hill at 4-5000 rpm I'd be easing back to change up. Not trying to change down. No wonder your mpg is rubbish.
 The air filter is in the plastic box at the right of the engine. The pollen filter inside the glove box. Neither will effect the mpg.

springswood

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2020, 10:06:36 AM »
It's the air cleaner element that filters the air entering the engine. As yours hasn't been changed in almost 3 years it could well be a big part of the problem. Really it's distance that counts, after 10k miles (16k km) my fuel consumption increased rapidly. Cheap to change and just about the easiest DIY job there is. It could also account for the reluctance to rev you mention. So I'd say change that then see how it goes.
You're right the spark plugs should be OK. They last for 120k km.
Binding brakes aren't always obvious. I think I mentioned how to check for them or it's worth a quick search.
I don't know about auto boxes but I expect someone will.

"Indecision is a terrible thing"
Or is it? What do you think?

Jocko

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2020, 01:26:06 PM »
The air filter does not have an effect on fuel consumption on a fuel-injected engine, unlike an engine that uses a carburettor/s. As the filter starts to block up, the ECM reduces the fuel it supplies to the engine. A seriously blocked air filter will reduce performance however.
The manual says to replace the air filter every 20,000 km.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/11/replacing-clogged-air-filters-wont-really-improve-fuel-economy-on-modern-cars-though-it-will-improve-performance/

Westy36

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2020, 03:21:08 PM »
The air filter does not have an effect on fuel consumption on a fuel-injected engine, unlike an engine that uses a carburettor/s. As the filter starts to block up, the ECM reduces the fuel it supplies to the engine. A seriously blocked air filter will reduce performance however.
The manual says to replace the air filter every 20,000 km.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/11/replacing-clogged-air-filters-wont-really-improve-fuel-economy-on-modern-cars-though-it-will-improve-performance/

Well that goes against established knowledge. Every day is a school day as they say. I dont doubt the facts, but I'll still be changing the filter when its dirty!  :D 

Jocko

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2020, 08:31:57 PM »
I dont doubt the facts, but I'll still be changing the filter when its dirty!  :D
Me too.

springswood

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2020, 10:11:48 AM »
That's interesting and puzzling. Around this time last year I noticed my fuel consumption get worse by 3mpg or more, saw the air filter was filthy and when I replaced it my mpg recovered. I have wondered if there is a leak somewhere on the intake side or perhaps a dirty throttle body because the OBD reader shows I don't get any deceleration fuel cut off. Unfortunately I don't have the tools to go into that. Perhaps this is preventing the ecu from compensating for the air filter.
"Indecision is a terrible thing"
Or is it? What do you think?

John Ratsey

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2020, 12:48:54 PM »
The air filter does not have an effect on fuel consumption on a fuel-injected engine, unlike an engine that uses a carburettor/s. As the filter starts to block up, the ECM reduces the fuel it supplies to the engine. A seriously blocked air filter will reduce performance however.
So to compensate for poor performance the driver pushes the accelerator harder which, if nothing else, is likely to get the engine trying to suck more air, add more fuel and move to a less efficient operating zone. We all function better if we can breath properly.

madasafish

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2020, 01:37:05 PM »
The air filter does not have an effect on fuel consumption on a fuel-injected engine, unlike an engine that uses a carburettor/s. As the filter starts to block up, the ECM reduces the fuel it supplies to the engine. A seriously blocked air filter will reduce performance however.
The manual says to replace the air filter every 20,000 km.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/11/replacing-clogged-air-filters-wont-really-improve-fuel-economy-on-modern-cars-though-it-will-improve-performance/

Err

Air filter blocked, fuel injection cuts down fuel, engine loses power, driver treads harder on accelerator...

sparky Paul

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2020, 02:23:25 PM »
The air filter does not have an effect on fuel consumption on a fuel-injected engine, unlike an engine that uses a carburettor/s. As the filter starts to block up, the ECM reduces the fuel it supplies to the engine. A seriously blocked air filter will reduce performance however.
The manual says to replace the air filter every 20,000 km.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/11/replacing-clogged-air-filters-wont-really-improve-fuel-economy-on-modern-cars-though-it-will-improve-performance/

Err

Air filter blocked, fuel injection cuts down fuel, engine loses power, driver treads harder on accelerator...

...which opens the throttle wider, restoring the air flow and the ECU puts the same amount of fuel in.

The only difference is that the driver has to open the throttle wider for the same engine output - the throttle is only alters the amount of air going in, the ECU controls the fuel to suit. It sounds a bit odd, but Jocko's link is indeed correct. You could easily get incomplete combustion from too much fuel going in with a carburettor and a choked filter, but that shouldn't happen with fuel injection.

However, it can make a difference to how the driver drives the car, which could affect the fuel consumption,
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 02:35:11 PM by sparky Paul »

embee

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2020, 02:00:34 PM »
Hi all. I've worked in the auto industry on powertrains for 40yrs. Some interesting topics being discussed, and there are a lot of "yes, but ...." scenarios.
First question regarding ethanol E10 fuel. I'd suggest it's fine if the vehicle is compatible, which most post 2010 or so vehicles will be. You can usually check it for the particular make/model online.
Yes ethanol does combine with water, but that can be a benefit in that it keeps it in suspension rather than allowing it to pool and sit as water droplets, so E10 will tend to purge any water from the system better than other fuel. Bear in mind that most pump petrol has been allowed to contain up to 5% ethanol for years without needing to be labelled as such. De-watering/anti-icing additives are usually alcohol based, typically IPA, in order to attach to the water and carry it out, but ethanol does a similar job.
I often use it when on continental europe trips, but I also often put 98RON stuff in too when it is only a few cents dearer than 95, often the case in France. I won't get into the RON debate here.
In principle a modern engine should maintain the correct air/fuel ratio within reasonable limits of air filter life, certainly at all general running conditions short of full throttle and high engine speed. The one thing I'd suggest is that Australia is a bit of a different ballgame to the UK. We used to development test cars in Australia and they have a breed of dust there which is a nightmare, extremely fine and cakes on all surfaces especially if it gets wet then dries on. I'd suggest regular air filter changes if that's the environment, in Europe/UK it's really pretty clean air these days, 25k mls is perfectly fine for a filter usually.
The industry "lifetime" figure for an air filter is usually something like a pressure drop increase across the filter of about 15mBar (5" H2O etc) compared to a new filter at rated flow, and the new dP might be around the same value, typically 1.5% of atmospheric. This translates more or less directly as the same percentage power loss, maybe 1.5 or 2%.
A good design of air cleaner directs air at one general area of the filter, this results in the dirt getting concentrated in one spot and the rest stays reasonably clean for longer. If you see a really dirty patch on the filter, it's probably a good design, the clean air can turn the corners easier than the dirt.

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