Author Topic: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?  (Read 814 times)

robertjazz

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Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« on: November 11, 2020, 10:49:02 PM »
Hi, I have a Honda Jazz 2008 Gli 1.3 GE (MY09).

When I bought it (used), I used to always use Shell V-Power 98 on it. But I started travelling longer distances lately, so I switched to Shell E10 because I thought it was more economical. I measured the fuel economy between 98 and E10 and they are very similar, ranging from 12-13L/100km in my use case. I confirmed that the car is compatible with E10 from the owner's manual, and also from the sticker on the fuel door.

Owner's manual aside, is it good to use E10 on a Honda Jazz? Will it not have a detrimental effect on the engine or fuel system if I use it for the long-term? Has anyone been using it long-term on their Jazz?

sparky Paul

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2020, 11:21:15 PM »
We only have E5 here in the UK, so there won't be many on here with experience of using E10 long term or otherwise. E10 has been widely used in a few other European countries for some years now, and the UK Government is currently consulting on the introduction of E10 in 2021.

It shouldn't be a problem for most modern cars, hoses, seals and gaskets used in the fuel system are compatible with ethanol - indeed E10 compatibility has been mandatory here for new cars here in the UK since 2011.

So, the short answer is...  \_(ツ)_/

Here's an old thread about E10... https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=11906.0

culzean

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2020, 08:36:33 AM »
Hi, I have a Honda Jazz 2008 Gli 1.3 GE (MY09).

When I bought it (used), I used to always use Shell V-Power 98 on it. But I started travelling longer distances lately, so I switched to Shell E10 because I thought it was more economical. I measured the fuel economy between 98 and E10 and they are very similar, ranging from 12-13L/100km in my use case. I confirmed that the car is compatible with E10 from the owner's manual, and also from the sticker on the fuel door.

Owner's manual aside, is it good to use E10 on a Honda Jazz? Will it not have a detrimental effect on the engine or fuel system if I use it for the long-term? Has anyone been using it long-term on their Jazz?

Problem with ethanol is that it attracts / absorbs water and allow bugs to breed in the fuel system,  this produces an acidic environment that causes corrosion of metals... the more ethanol in the fuel the worse it gets.

https://www.equipmentworld.com/e-10-alive-the-corrosive-damage-ethanol-gasoline-does-to-your-fuel-pump/

I put Sta-Bil fuel stabiliser in motorbike fuel system and also mower etc over winter


And water in aviation fuel is potentially disastrous

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aviation-international-news/2008-05-08/additives-dont-add-power-they-just-keep-jet-safe
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 08:40:25 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Westy36

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2020, 08:52:26 AM »
Years ago I found a very comprehensive vehicle list when I wanted to check if my 2002 Skoda Octavia would be ok on E10 on our many European trips. It was, and made no noticeable difference. A quick search and Ive found this which should answer your question:
 https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/ACEA_E10_compatibility.pdf  :)
I appreciate you're outside the EU, so perhaps worth checking in your domestic area, but I can't see Honda using different fuel systems for different markets.

springswood

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2020, 10:01:06 AM »
Forgive me for saying it but if you're using 12-13 l/100km are you sure all is as it should be? Unless you're driving it like a racing car  I would expect 8 or less, or in British terms 35+ mpg not the 24 or less you mentioned. I'd be looking for binding brakes - find somewhere quiet to roll to a stop without touching the brake pedal then carefully check if any of the wheel hubs feel hot. Also air filter and 8 plugs.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 10:04:32 AM by springswood »
"Indecision is a terrible thing"
Or is it? What do you think?

Jocko

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2020, 10:17:49 AM »
I use 5.1 l/100 km.

robertjazz

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2020, 04:10:13 AM »
Forgive me for saying it but if you're using 12-13 l/100km are you sure all is as it should be? Unless you're driving it like a racing car  I would expect 8 or less, or in British terms 35+ mpg not the 24 or less you mentioned. I'd be looking for binding brakes - find somewhere quiet to roll to a stop without touching the brake pedal then carefully check if any of the wheel hubs feel hot. Also air filter and 8 plugs.

Thanks for mentioning it. Previously, I too was wondering before why my fuel economy is like that.

My daily usage currently is:
8.0 km going to destination, and 8.0 km going back home.
8.3 km going to destination, and 8.7 km going back home.

Other amenities (groceries, park, mall, clinic, church, restaurants, etc.) are within 5-10km of my home, so I seldom travel longer distances.  The travel is also a bit start/stop because of roundabouts, school zones, and humps around the area. So I thought that the fuel economy is due to my daily routine. 

Additionally:
1. I asked a mechanic (but not from the Honda service center) about it, and he said it is also due to my usage.

2. Early this year, before the pandemic struck, I had an opportunity to travel 76 km straight to a destination, and most of it was on an express way. So what I did was I reset the trip monitor from the dashboard to be able to ascertain what the fuel economy was in longer distances. At the end of the trip, the trip monitor showed 6.6L / km which is exactly what is advertised for my Honda Jazz variant (this is the brochure for reference on fuel consumption: http://australiancar.reviews/_pdfs/Honda_Jazz_GE-I_Brochure_200902.pdf).  So I assumed there was nothing wrong with it.



Do you guys think that even with this routine, the fuel economy on the Jazz should still be better than 12-13L / 100km? If yes, then I will have it investigated.

Jocko

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2020, 07:02:20 AM »
The figure below my avatar is my AVERAGE mpg over the 4.5 years and 45,000 miles (72,500 km) since I bought the car. I do a 6 km commute, twice a day in the same conditions as you drive. Most weekends I have a highway trip of 65 km in each direction. My best economy for a tank of petrol is 69.9 mpg.
I bought the Jazz to replace a Volvo S40 automatic that was returning better l/100 km than your Jazz. I would get the brakes checked for dragging. Other than that it is likely to be your style of driving. I try to avoid using my brakes as much as possible using anticipation in their place. After 45,000 miles I am still on the pads the car came with, and they were by no means new then.

springswood

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2020, 08:39:40 AM »
Even when I've had weeks when I only did trips under 8km involving a lot of hills, taking the dogs on the moors, my worst fuel consumption has been around 7 l/100 km, 40 mpg UK. It has only gone below that when I had a binding rear brake and when I'd forgotten to change the air filter.

The Gli is not a model we got in the UK but I'm assuming, being 2008, it has the iDsi engine with 2 spark plugs per cylinder so it would be similar to mine. Incidentally I've done 127,000 miles (203,000 km).

Two things I've done that have improved my fuel economy are changing the rear coils 100 and the battery 45. All thanks to information I got here.

When I got the car the rear spark plugs hadn't been changed for a long time. I could tell because the gap was up to 3mm rather than the 1mm it should be. That, combined with the heat from the exhaust, stresses those coils and you can get a weak spark without having any error codes.

The battery makes a big difference to short journeys because, with a good battery the ecu effectively disconnects the alternator while the engine is warming up and at idle reducing the hit to fuel economy. There were two signs may car was relying on the alternator more than it was designed to. Clearest was the steering would occasionally be heavy when parking. That's because the battery couldn't find the 40 amps needed by the electric power steering and the engine wasn't turning fast enough for the alternator to supply the shortfall. The other was a tendency to feel it was about to die pulling off, especially when cold. Again due to load from the alternator because the battery was weak. Compensating for that with extra revs eats fuel.

You can easily tell the state of a battery from the voltage with no load. I can't remember the figures but they're on this site somewhere.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 08:45:57 AM by springswood »
"Indecision is a terrible thing"
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culzean

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2020, 09:16:39 AM »
The battery makes a big difference to short journeys because, with a good battery the ecu effectively disconnects the alternator while the engine is warming up and at idle reducing the hit to fuel economy. There were two signs may car was relying on the alternator more than it was designed to. Clearest was the steering would occasionally be heavy when parking. That's because the battery couldn't find the 40 amps needed by the electric power steering and the engine wasn't turning fast enough for the alternator to supply the shortfall. The other was a tendency to feel it was about to die pulling off, especially when cold. Again due to load from the alternator because the battery was weak. Compensating for that with extra revs eats fuel.

You can easily tell the state of a battery from the voltage with no load. I can't remember the figures but they're on this site somewhere.

Good advice,  the battery is one of the most neglected parts of a car, it is on a downward spiral as soon as it leaves the factory and being kept in a low state of charge only speeds up its demise,  a lead acid battery will last as little as 3 years and as much as 8 - but that depends a lot on how good it was to start with and how it has been treated.  If you don't know when the battery was replaced or it is older than 5 years it is definitely time to replace - modern batteries do not normally fail suddenly they just slowly degrade over time.  This one comes with a five year warranty and higher cranking amps and reserve ( 340 vs 280 amps and 40 vs 35 amps ) than standard battery - and for 46 delivered to your door is a steal - ( check price of same battery at Halfrauds ) -   https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/yuasa/ybx5054/

The terminal voltage is only part of the story, as a battery ages its 'internal resistance' increases and its ability to both accept and release power drops, as springwood rightly says this puts extra load on the alternator because the battery can no longer supply adequate power for the cars systems. 

Posters on this forum had strange problems with error lights and codes on electric power steering system that defied logic, replacing the battery cured the problems...
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

sparky Paul

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2020, 09:26:15 AM »
The Gli is not a model we got in the UK but I'm assuming, being 2008, it has the iDsi engine with 2 spark plugs per cylinder so it would be similar to mine.

I think the OP's car has the VTEC engine with the conventional auto gearbox.


Early this year, before the pandemic struck, I had an opportunity to travel 76 km straight to a destination, and most of it was on an express way. So what I did was I reset the trip monitor from the dashboard to be able to ascertain what the fuel economy was in longer distances. At the end of the trip, the trip monitor showed 6.6L / km which is exactly what is advertised for my Honda Jazz variant (this is the brochure for reference on fuel consumption: http://australiancar.reviews/_pdfs/Honda_Jazz_GE-I_Brochure_200902.pdf).  So I assumed there was nothing wrong with it.

6.6L/km is equivalent to 42.8mpg, which sounds about right if yours is the VTEC engine with conventional auto gearbox. Note that is a combined figure, the figure given for urban driving is 8.2l/100km, which is around 34mpg.

However, 12-13l/100km works out at around 22-23mpg, which does sound poor, even for an auto in urban driving. I guess it's possible, if the car is only being driven a few miles each time, and from cold.

Jocko

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2020, 09:34:29 AM »
and for 46 delivered to your door is a steal
I don't think they would deliver it to Australia for that price.

sparky Paul

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2020, 09:42:53 AM »
and for 46 delivered to your door is a steal
I don't think they would deliver it to Australia for that price.

Worth a try  ;D

springswood

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2020, 10:02:05 AM »
That's exactly the battery I got  :D
"Indecision is a terrible thing"
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culzean

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Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2020, 11:30:32 AM »
and for 46 delivered to your door is a steal
I don't think they would deliver it to Australia for that price.

Worth a try  ;D

6 to 8 weeks delivery from UK - you will get the same battery locally though if you want it quicker :)
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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