Author Topic: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)  (Read 1054 times)

Rambo

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2020, 08:55:31 PM »
All really useful info chaps many thanks. I am in two minds whether to ignore this problem and see how things go on longer trips or whether to look into fitting a new battery. To me this seems unnecessary as I believe my battery is in good health and it is the Honda system causing problems.

Perhaps a diagnostic of some sort somewhere but this will cost, unless I can get an OBD 2 reader that reads Honda codes from somewhere.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 09:02:07 PM by Rambo »

culzean

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2020, 09:35:15 PM »
Smart external chargers use voltage to understand the SOC, some professional devices measure the voltage before and after applying a heavy resistance for some seconds used to simulate a startup; if the gap is big, it doesn't matter if the initial voltage was high, this means the battery is out of order.

External chargers have to use terminal voltage to assess state of charge because they are not permanently connected to battery and have no idea how much charge is already in battery,  but coulomb counting is much more precise and is used in high end and medical equipment and especially with lithium ion batteries where terminal voltage is not always representative of SOC. Problem with coulomb counting is the battery has to be in a known state of charge when installed and all current in and out has to pass through a sensor.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

jazzaro

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2020, 09:36:45 PM »
To me the battery is in enough good conditions to go on starting up the car in the morning, but non enough good to continuosly start and restart the engine with the S&S.
So I think I will change it before next winter, I don't know if the new will be  a OEM Yuasa or a cheaper Banner EFB.

Rambo

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2020, 09:41:00 PM »
I have no idea what battery I have, presumably it is OEM.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 11:13:04 PM by Rambo »

jazzaro

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2020, 09:59:06 PM »
External chargers have to use terminal voltage to assess state of charge because they are not permanently connected to battery and have no idea how much charge is already in battery,  but coulomb counting is much more precise and is used in high end and medical equipment and especially with lithium ion batteries where terminal voltage is not always representative of SOC. Problem with coulomb counting is the battery has to be in a known state of charge when installed and all current in and out has to pass through a sensor.
Coulomb counting has a problem, it does not recognize the battery self discharge; since our lead acid batteries have a higher self discharge rate than li-ion and ni-mhd batteries (very low), the Jazz system cannot consider the battery as a "fully sealed tank" believing that everything seen going inside will stay there until it will be seen  coming out. So there must be some parameter correcting this "problem".
Other problem, the hall effect sensor on the -lead cannot be so precise to detect very low currents, less than milliamps flowing through it. I work with hall sensors, and very low currents need very sensitive (and expensive) sensors. Mass production devices as cars and laptops must use cheap components, otherwise their price would explode. This is why also laptops and smartphones, after some charge/discharge cycles, must reset and reconfigure the battery level indicator: each second  the coulomb counter loses some electrons, and the sum becomes big after hundred of charging cycles.
So cars must have a mix between coulomb counting, voltage, usage and I suppose a good software considering also temperature, because the sensor on the battery - lead has also a thermocouple.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 10:14:02 PM by jazzaro »

John Ratsey

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2020, 10:35:43 PM »
I had a long discussion with the workshop manager at my dealer about the temperamental stop-start system (my HR-V behaves the same as the Mk. 3 Jazz). Basically, the ECU has a long check list of issues to be satisfied before it is willing for the stop-start to work because, Honda, understandably, doesn't want the vehicle to be hesitant about restarting once the engine has stopped.

While I didn't see this checklist (if one exists) it's very probable that an initial battery check is done when the car is first started. Perhaps it looks at the minimum voltage in this situation and this isn't rechecked until the engine is turned off and on again. On one occasion, I've driven two hours with stop-start not working until the restart after a break and on another occasion the stop-start didn't work when I left home but I stopped a couple of miles down the road to refuel after which the stop-start was happy.

Something to consider trying is to disconnect the battery, wait a minute and reconnect it (this doesn't kill the audio system in the Mk. 3 as the code is in the ECU). The ECU then has to assume that the battery has been changed and reset the charge monitoring system and should figure out that what it thinks is a half-charged battery is actually fully charged.

peteo48

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2020, 10:55:44 AM »
On the other hand John, I have had situations where I've started a journey and the stop/start hasn't operated even after 30 or so miles. Without stopping it has then kicked in. That said it seems to take so many variables into consideration including ambient temperature, operating temperature, whether the climate control is on etc etc.

My view, with no engineering knowledge, is the system is quite conservative and won't take chances. I'm OK with this.

Rambo

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2020, 11:01:20 AM »
I might try the battery disconnect later then assuming it won't cause me any more problems  :D

BIGFELLAH

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2020, 11:31:29 AM »
Just an observation  ref stop start  etc
We have had our present Jazz for 3 Years plus now and start stop has operated a handful of times during this period, so I am hoping that nothing changes,To upset the apple cart so to speak

Rambo

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2020, 05:17:01 PM »
I have sorted the problem!!!!!  :D

This is what I needed to do;

1. Disconnect negative terminal on battery and leave for 2 mins.
2. Reconnect negative terminal to battery.
3. Hook up CTEK charger as before with the negative connected to the body cable side of the battery symbol sensor.
4. This time, instead of reporting done fairly quickly it took about 1 hour of charge.

I disconnected the charger and the next day took the car out. Start/stop working perfectly.

Thanks for all of the advice. It looks like the ECU needed a reset by disconnecting the battery.

jazzaro

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2020, 11:49:49 AM »
I have sorted the problem!!!!!  :D

This is what I needed to do;

1. Disconnect negative terminal on battery and leave for 2 mins.
2. Reconnect negative terminal to battery.
3. Hook up CTEK charger as before with the negative connected to the body cable side of the battery symbol sensor.
4. This time, instead of reporting done fairly quickly it took about 1 hour of charge.

I disconnected the charger and the next day took the car out. Start/stop working perfectly.

Thanks for all of the advice. It looks like the ECU needed a reset by disconnecting the battery.
Good.
Let us know if the S&S will go on working in the future.
My s&s  now works fine, after a winter where many times I had the battery alert even after a right recharge.

RobHam

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2020, 10:49:40 AM »
I have sorted the problem!!!!!  :D

This is what I needed to do;

1. Disconnect negative terminal on battery and leave for 2 mins.
2. Reconnect negative terminal to battery.
3. Hook up CTEK charger as before with the negative connected to the body cable side of the battery symbol sensor.
4. This time, instead of reporting done fairly quickly it took about 1 hour of charge.

I disconnected the charger and the next day took the car out. Start/stop working perfectly.

Thanks for all of the advice. It looks like the ECU needed a reset by disconnecting the battery.

A USA Honda Fit Forum has a method to reset the ECU without disconnecting the battery as follows :-

When you see the Auto Stop/Battery disabled symbol
1. With the engine running, pull the bonnet release catch - dashboard indicates that the bonnet has been released.
2. Turn the engine off.
3. Exit the car and open and close the bonnet.

Auto stop will then work normally again.  I have tried this procedure and strangely seems to work.

culzean

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2020, 11:46:45 AM »
Personally it would be a bonus to me if I had auto stop and it never worked  :o
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

JazzyJJ

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2020, 09:32:11 PM »
I have sorted the problem!!!!!  :D

This is what I needed to do;

1. Disconnect negative terminal on battery and leave for 2 mins.
2. Reconnect negative terminal to battery.
3. Hook up CTEK charger as before with the negative connected to the body cable side of the battery symbol sensor.
4. This time, instead of reporting done fairly quickly it took about 1 hour of charge.

I disconnected the charger and the next day took the car out. Start/stop working perfectly.

Thanks for all of the advice. It looks like the ECU needed a reset by disconnecting the battery.

A USA Honda Fit Forum has a method to reset the ECU without disconnecting the battery as follows :-

When you see the Auto Stop/Battery disabled symbol
1. With the engine running, pull the bonnet release catch - dashboard indicates that the bonnet has been released.
2. Turn the engine off.
3. Exit the car and open and close the bonnet.

Auto stop will then work normally again.  I have tried this procedure and strangely seems to work.

I tried this couple of times today but it didnt seem to work for me. Ill try again tomorrow.

jazzaro

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2020, 10:26:09 PM »

A USA Honda Fit Forum has a method to reset the ECU without disconnecting the battery as follows :-

When you see the Auto Stop/Battery ...
EUDM Jazz and USDM Fit have most parts in common, but also several  differences: airbags (USDM are bigger and safer),  bumper subframes  and some ECU and software, so it's better try this method  but no surprise if it does not work.

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