Author Topic: 1.5 chain or timing belt  (Read 750 times)

JazzMusic

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1.5 chain or timing belt
« on: March 09, 2020, 09:51:27 AM »
Does the 1.5 have a chain or a timing belt? I hope it doesn't have a timing belt running in the engine oil.

culzean

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Re: 1.5 chain or timing belt
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2020, 10:33:33 AM »
Does the 1.5 have a chain or a timing belt? I hope it doesn't have a timing belt running in the engine oil.

As far as I know, no Honda engine since early 2000's ( when 2006 Civic and 2003 Jazz came out ) used a timing belt, they went over to chains.  What is wrong with chain running in engine oil like on every other engine,  including high performance motorbikes do, do you thing it should have its own oil supply ?  I have no doubt at all that given oil change at recommended intervals that the chain will last >200,000 miles,  Ozzie had a Jazz that did and he never mentioned timing chain,  although IIRC the aircon compressor did pack up about 200K.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: 1.5 chain or timing belt
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2020, 11:34:54 AM »
I hope it doesn't have a timing belt running in the engine oil.
JazzMusic says a Timing BELT running in engine oil (My italics in quote).

culzean

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Re: 1.5 chain or timing belt
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2020, 12:30:09 PM »
I hope it doesn't have a timing belt running in the engine oil.
JazzMusic says a Timing BELT running in engine oil (My italics in quote).

Ooops, my bad.

seems timing belts in oil are even better than chains............... described as 'engine lifetime rated'... ( previously the preserve of chains ) it is normally the chain tensioners that go bad though especially on motorbikes where there is less room to get them in...

@JazzMusic have you had bad experience with belts in oil ?

https://www.ngfeurope.com/~/media/NGF%20Europe/Site%20Content/News/Automotive%20Design%20Europe%20Feature.ashx
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 12:39:06 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

sparky Paul

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Re: 1.5 chain or timing belt
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2020, 01:04:28 PM »
I thought it was only the 1L 3 cylinder turbo engine which had the belt-in-oil. I think all the 1.5L are still chain cam.

FWIW, the service interval for camshaft and oil pump drive belts on the 1L is 6 years/75,000 miles for UK... and it's a big, and hence expensive, job. Must say, I don't fancy the idea at all.

JazzMusic

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Re: 1.5 chain or timing belt
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2020, 01:55:59 PM »
I trust timing belts and even more chains (at least in a Honda but certainly not in a European car :)). Running a timing belt in the oil is pretty new for Honda, the 1.0 turbo (Civic) uses it. I'm not saying it's wrong but I just want to avoid them until they've proved ok (for >200k miles). They require a special oil. I prefer using the oil I want. :)

TB on a 4 cyl is not as bad as on a V6. I usually extend the intervall up to 100 years. The risk is on my side but a TB is a very strong part unless it's exposed to oil and dirt.

jazzaro

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Re: 1.5 chain or timing belt
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2020, 02:12:35 PM »
L series such as 1.3 and 1.5 have timing chain, naturally aspirated for Jazz or turbocharged for Civic.
The 1.0t is a P series, and it has wet timing belt.

madasafish

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Re: 1.5 chain or timing belt
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2020, 02:13:49 PM »
I thought it was only the 1L 3 cylinder turbo engine which had the belt-in-oil. I think all the 1.5L are still chain cam.

FWIW, the service interval for camshaft and oil pump drive belts on the 1L is 6 years/75,000 miles for UK... and it's a big, and hence expensive, job. Must say, I don't fancy the idea at all.


And if you don't use the correct oil - to specification , the belt may break See Ford turbos 1.0...

Basil

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Re: 1.5 chain or timing belt
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2020, 02:56:57 PM »
I drove my son's 1.0 Ecoboost Fiesta on the weekend and thought how nice it is to drive, so much more powerful and flexible than my 1.2 mk2 Jazz.

It made me wonder why Honda didn't put their 1.0 turbo in the Jazz or even if I should consider buying a 1.0 Civic next but I think I've gone off the idea after reading these comments as I like to keep cars for the long term.

JazzMusic

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Re: 1.5 chain or timing belt
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2020, 03:55:46 PM »
And if you don't use the correct oil - to specification , the belt may break See Ford turbos 1.0...
That's my point. Wet timing belts are planned obsolescence and undesired dependency.

Downsizer

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Re: 1.5 chain or timing belt
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2020, 04:29:48 PM »
I drove my son's 1.0 Ecoboost Fiesta on the weekend and thought how nice it is to drive, so much more powerful and flexible than my 1.2 mk2 Jazz.

It made me wonder why Honda didn't put their 1.0 turbo in the Jazz
Under the WLTP test regime the 1.3 Jazz is significantly more economical (around15%) than the turbo Fiesta.  The 3 cylinder turbos showed up well on the older NEDC test cycle but not in real world driving.

jazzaro

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Re: 1.5 chain or timing belt
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2020, 04:57:32 PM »
I trust timing belts and even more chains (at least in a Honda but certainly not in a European car :)). Running a timing belt in the oil is pretty new for Honda, the 1.0 turbo (Civic) uses it. I'm not saying it's wrong but I just want to avoid them until they've proved ok (for >200k miles). They require a special oil. I prefer using the oil I want. :)
There are 4 generations of timing belts.
1 generation, chloroprene, born in the late sixties and used in  lots of ohc engines
2 generation, polichloroplene and fiberglass and called HSN,  used since the nineties, made to last 5-6 years or 90-100000 miles. If you have a 2010 Renault Clio, you have an HSN belt.
3 generation, HT (High tenacity), initially made for VW diesels with the "Pump Duse" injection system. This kind of belt had to bear high mechanical stresses coming from these engines (the camshaft has to push both valves and the pump-injector), so the rubber is a high idrogenated HNBR polymer with high strenght fiberglass inside and ptfe on the surface. Used in a 1.9 or 2.0 TDI engine this belt last 5-6 years and 100000miles, used in a Ford 1.6tdci common rail engine can last 200000 miles and 10 years.
4 generation, wet belts patented by Dayco.
Ford and PSA use Dayco wet timing belt since 2013. "Wet" means that the belt is in contact with oil vapour (this is enough for lubrication), and they set the manteinance every 10 years or 150000 miles. As I can read, they do not set a particular oil, their user manuals write only about ACEA type and SAE grade.

jazzaro

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Re: 1.5 chain or timing belt
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2020, 05:07:31 PM »
Under the WLTP test regime the 1.3 Jazz is significantly more economical (around15%) than the turbo Fiesta.  The 3 cylinder turbos showed up well on the older NEDC test cycle but not in real world driving.
According to Spritmonitor, the average consumption of a 100hp 1.0 Fiesta is 6,4 liters per 100km, while a 100hp Jazz is 5,8 liters per 100km. The difference in the real driving is 0,6 liters, about 10%.

John Ratsey

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Re: 1.5 chain or timing belt
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2020, 05:35:20 PM »
I drove my son's 1.0 Ecoboost Fiesta on the weekend and thought how nice it is to drive, so much more powerful and flexible than my 1.2 mk2 Jazz.

It made me wonder why Honda didn't put their 1.0 turbo in the Jazz
Under the WLTP test regime the 1.3 Jazz is significantly more economical (around15%) than the turbo Fiesta.  The 3 cylinder turbos showed up well on the older NEDC test cycle but not in real world driving.
I recall the other problem with turbo engines is that the real life emissions tend to be higher than those during the controlled testing.

jazzaro

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Re: 1.5 chain or timing belt
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2020, 08:30:24 PM »
I recall the other problem with turbo engines is that the real life emissions tend to be higher than those during the controlled testing.
Also naturally aspirated engines have this "problem", even if less than turbocharged.

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