Author Topic: WLTP fuel figures and CVT  (Read 2333 times)

andruec

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Re: WLTP fuel figures and CVT
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2020, 09:54:16 PM »
1. I had a CVT Mk 3 Jazz in 2015-16 and averaged 57.8 mpg (fuel into tank) over 5300 miles. 
Mine is 46,3mpg, manual, 35500miles.
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3. I would hope that Honda would use a battery pack larger than 1 kWh in the Mk 4 Jazz. Otherwise the little battery will have a hard life and the hybrid system will struggle to give much benefit in other than simple stop-start-accelerate-brake urban driving conditions.
CR-V and Accord have a 1,3kwh lithium ion battery pack, the Insight has a 1,2 kwh, Jazz Hybrid hardly will have a bigger pack. Toyota HSDs have similar capacities (Yaris 0,9kwh); using the electric part only for efficiency purpose, a bigger pack would be unuseful.
Just to pop back in (hi to those who remember me) my Corolla (1.8 Hybrid) has averaged some 10% better than my Jazz after nearly a year. My Jazz used to manage between 49 (winter) and 54 (summer) mpg over the year, excluding long journeys. My Corolla has managed between 55 and 63. Same driver, same driving style. Bigger wheels. But its worst figure in the depths of a cold wet winter was better than the best average my Jazz could do.

Even long journeys are surprisingly better, albeit not by much. I typically get around 65 to 70 on the 180 mile drive to my Dad in the Corolla. The Jazz was between 60 and 65.

Oh and its e-CVT gear box is as efficient as a manual because it's all done with gears.

But that isn't the best my car could do. On the Toyota forum I now frequent there are a couple of taxi drivers and they've been averaging 70 to 80 mpg.

It'll be very interesting to see how the new hybrid Jazz performs because comparing the CRV and the Rav-4, the latter has more power and is more efficient so the evidence so far is that Honda's hybrid system is just not as good as Toyota's.

andruec

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Re: WLTP fuel figures and CVT
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2020, 10:00:16 PM »
It is now becoming apparent ( well battery engineers knew it all along but bEV car makers never let on ) that keeping Lithium batteries fully charged damages them
My Corolla likes to keep the battery between 30 and 70% and Toyota indicate that clearly in the manual.

But a note about charging electric vehicles. Most people do not drive hundreds of miles a day. A typical EV would probably only need a few hours to recharge and if done overnight (a simple timer would suffice, but smart metering would be better) the grid could easily accommodate the load. In fact with smart metering allowing cars to supply power in the early evening or if plugged in during the day they could be beneficial in helping stabilise the grid especially with increasing amounts of power coming from variable sources like wind.

Jocko

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Re: WLTP fuel figures and CVT
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2020, 10:33:00 PM »
Today I did a lot of driving. 7 miles in fact! On the days I visit my mother-in-law we do 80 miles, but that is only twice a week. Most days I do no more than 2 miles. Many days the car never comes out the garage. It is amazing how little most people use their cars.

Downsizer

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Re: WLTP fuel figures and CVT
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2020, 09:45:40 AM »

But a note about charging electric vehicles. Most people do not drive hundreds of miles a day. A typical EV would probably only need a few hours to recharge and if done overnight (a simple timer would suffice, but smart metering would be better) the grid could easily accommodate the load. In fact with smart metering allowing cars to supply power in the early evening or if plugged in during the day they could be beneficial in helping stabilise the grid especially with increasing amounts of power coming from variable sources like wind.
I agree that a large number of electric cars plugged in via smart metering would be a useful resource for the grid to balance power supply from intermittent sources. However, this would require a huge investment in charging facilities where people usually leave their cars, and many people leave them on the roadside.  We would all like to go carbon-free, but not it it interferes too much with our normal lives!

jazzaro

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Re: WLTP fuel figures and CVT
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2020, 09:53:26 AM »
My Corolla likes to keep the battery between 30 and 70% and Toyota indicate that clearly in the manual.
Toyota hybrids do the same since 2004, both with li-ion and ni-mh batteries. This is the safest way to keep alive their batteries.
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But a note about charging electric vehicles. Most people do not drive hundreds of miles a day. A typical EV would probably only need a few hours to recharge and if done overnight (a simple timer would suffice, but smart metering would be better) the grid could easily accommodate the load. In fact with smart metering allowing cars to supply power in the early evening or if plugged in during the day they could be beneficial in helping stabilise the grid especially with increasing amounts of power coming from variable sources like wind.
This can work only in a perfect world. I could plug my EV with 75% SOC because I quickly need a 100% (long trip or other), and I would be very disappointed looking my SOC going to 70% because of the smart grid. I think I would press the button "fast charge and disable smart grid", and I would always do the same... If I plug my EV, I do this because I want to GET energy, not to GIVE energy.
About the daily drive: yep, you're right, my daily usage is about 20km, but sometimes I drive 400km in the same day. A BEV would be perfect for my 20km daily drive, definetly not for my sundays..
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 09:58:07 AM by jazzaro »

peteo48

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Re: WLTP fuel figures and CVT
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2020, 10:53:42 AM »
Today I did a lot of driving. 7 miles in fact! On the days I visit my mother-in-law we do 80 miles, but that is only twice a week. Most days I do no more than 2 miles. Many days the car never comes out the garage. It is amazing how little most people use their cars.

The figure 90% seems to jog a memory. The average car is sitting in its garage, drive or parking spot for 90% of its life.
Just done a back of the envelope calculation for me and I reckon my car is idle for 98% of the time!!!

zzaj

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Re: WLTP fuel figures and CVT
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2020, 11:03:58 AM »
Today I did a lot of driving. 7 miles in fact! On the days I visit my mother-in-law we do 80 miles, but that is only twice a week. Most days I do no more than 2 miles. Many days the car never comes out the garage. It is amazing how little most people use their cars.

The figure 90% seems to jog a memory. The average car is sitting in its garage, drive or parking spot for 90% of its life.
Just done a back of the envelope calculation for me and I reckon my car is idle for 98% of the time!!!

98% unused is quite normal!!!

jazzaro

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Re: WLTP fuel figures and CVT
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2020, 11:16:52 AM »
Today I did a lot of driving. 7 miles in fact! On the days I visit my mother-in-law we do 80 miles, but that is only twice a week. Most days I do no more than 2 miles. Many days the car never comes out the garage. It is amazing how little most people use their cars.
Sure, but I'm  as much sure that we cannot think only in terms of "average". I'm thinking about fireman's vehicles, they run about 10 miles twice a week, the most of times they work for one our or two at idle to power pumps or other devices then they go back to the station, where they could stay plugged to the grid; perfect usage for an EV. But this is only the AVERAGE usage, because something of unusual can happen  (a quake, a railway crash, a big fire in a big building of the city center, ...) when a fireman vehicle have to work continuosly for hours and hours or for whole days: in this case an EV would be very bad, considering how long would take the recharge, compared with ten minutes to refill a diesel tank. This is the matter: now BEVs are very good, no, they are very very very good for a limited usage mode, short trips or also longer if the area has many carging points, close to your final destination. But BEVs are not good if you cannot plan your trips by destination and lenghth, because petrol and diesel still give  more more flexibility.

Jocko

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Re: WLTP fuel figures and CVT
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2020, 11:38:33 AM »
The electric buses Glasgow has introduced this week can run from 6 am to 11 pm on one charge, and can recharge in time to start the next shift.

jazzaro

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Re: WLTP fuel figures and CVT
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2020, 12:51:06 PM »
The electric buses Glasgow has introduced this week can run from 6 am to 11 pm on one charge, and can recharge in time to start the next shift.
Could you give me the tech specs of these vehicles and of the charging stations?
Many thanks.
Anyway, a BE bus can be good: it run on a well known route, and in same points (end of line) you can place an ultrafast charging system, inductive or with automated plugging sistem. An emergency vehicle must be able to go everywhere. 
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 01:28:08 PM by jazzaro »

Jocko

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Re: WLTP fuel figures and CVT
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2020, 03:02:20 PM »

John Ratsey

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Re: WLTP fuel figures and CVT
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2020, 03:41:42 PM »
A typical EV would probably only need a few hours to recharge and if done overnight (a simple timer would suffice, but smart metering would be better) the grid could easily accommodate the load. In fact with smart metering allowing cars to supply power in the early evening or if plugged in during the day they could be beneficial in helping stabilise the grid especially with increasing amounts of power coming from variable sources like wind.
What you are suggesting is not metering (which is measurement) but some form of control. This misrepresentation is one reason why some people have been reluctant to have smart meters installed. In reality, smart meters only do measurement and automatically upload the usage data - mine is 1/2 hour time slots which I think is standard.

Some of the suppliers are taking advantage of this detailed usage data to introduce time-based tariffs. For example, the Octopus Go tariff (aimed at EV charging) costs only 5p/kWh for electricity used between 00:30 and 04:30. It doesn't need a special meter - all the household usage during this time period is charged at that rate. An EV user would need to put a timer onto their charger, but that isn't difficult and may be built-in. For those who want even more flexibility there's the Octopus Agile tariff for which pricing changes every half hour and the rates for each day are published one day ahead. The rate is known to go negative on occasions if there's an expected surplus of generation but I suspect this is too complicated for most consumers.

jazzaro

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Re: WLTP fuel figures and CVT
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2020, 05:10:53 PM »
This is the bus on the manufacturer's website.
https://www.alexander-dennis.com/products/single-deck-buses/byd-adl-enviro200ev/
Looks nice, thanks. I can't find detailed specs, as battery capacities, weight and engine power, anyway this is a good news.

peteo48

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Re: WLTP fuel figures and CVT
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2020, 05:13:00 PM »
Today I did a lot of driving. 7 miles in fact! On the days I visit my mother-in-law we do 80 miles, but that is only twice a week. Most days I do no more than 2 miles. Many days the car never comes out the garage. It is amazing how little most people use their cars.

The figure 90% seems to jog a memory. The average car is sitting in its garage, drive or parking spot for 90% of its life.
Just done a back of the envelope calculation for me and I reckon my car is idle for 98% of the time!!!

98% unused is quite normal!!!

You could be right. Just thinking of my daughter who reckons she spends 2 hours a day in her car and that's probably more than most and even that works out to 92% idle!

Jocko

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Re: WLTP fuel figures and CVT
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2020, 07:30:18 PM »
Looks nice, thanks. I can't find detailed specs, as battery capacities, weight and engine power, anyway this is a good news.
This is the chassis, drivetrain manufacturer.

http://www.bydeurope.com/pdp-bus-coach

It uses an Iron-Phosphate battery and the power comes from 2 x 150 kW motors. It is good for an 18% gradient.

The coach states it recharges in 3 hours from 2 x 40 kW AC chargers.

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