Second referendum for Scotland

[sparky Paul]

I agree, we are a parliamentary democracy - we should not rule by plebescite.

So if Scotland's Parliament votes for a referendum (after all Scotland is a parliamentary democracy) then we should be allowed to hold one?

Well, I think I that's exactly what I said earlier.

As to whether I think referenda are a good idea or not, that's a completely different question.

[JimSh]

We as a country have been diluted in many ways we are not the same do or die as our forefathers some of this dilution would jump ship as the saying goes when and if a call to arms were made.
Trust me you would see a massive exodus in the blink of an eye.
And before all and sundry say this is not PC this not so nor intended, but wait and see.I hope of course this call is never made.

I hope I am misinterpreting what you have written.

[MartinJG]

We as a country have been diluted in many ways we are not the same do or die as our forefathers some of this dilution would jump ship as the saying goes when and if a call to arms were made.
Trust me you would see a massive exodus in the blink of an eye.
And before all and sundry say this is not PC this not so nor intended, but wait and see.I hope of course this call is never made.

I hope I am misinterpreting what you have written.

That rather depends on your interpretation, does it not.

[JimSh]

We as a country have been diluted in many ways we are not the same do or die as our forefathers some of this dilution would jump ship as the saying goes when and if a call to arms were made.
Trust me you would see a massive exodus in the blink of an eye.
And before all and sundry say this is not PC this not so nor intended, but wait and see.I hope of course this call is never made.

I hope I am misinterpreting what you have written.

That rather depends on your interpretation, does it not.

And before all and sundry say this is not PC this not so nor intended, but wait and see.I hope of course this call is never made.

Damn right it's not PC

[sparky Paul]

Getting back to the subject of this thread, interesting question in current ICM Research election polling -

A second Scottish independence referendum

With a second Scottish independence referendum becoming a key point of debate in the election, ICM this week asked the public if they would allow a second Scottish independence referendum within the next 5 years if they were prime minister.

The British public is evenly split on this question, with 40% saying that they would allow a second Scottish referendum in the next 5 years if they were PM and 42% saying that they would not allow it. Around one in five people do not know (18%).

Younger people are more likely than older people to say that they would allow a second Scottish independence referendum. Around half of 18-24-year-olds (52%) and 25-34-year-olds (47%) say that they would allow indyref2 within 5 years, compared to three in ten of those aged 65 or over (31%).

Among those living in England & Wales, the results are similar to the overall results: four in ten would allow a second independence referendum in Scotland within 5 years (40%) and four in ten would not (41%).

Among those who intend to vote Labour, over half say that they would allow a second independence referendum (56%), while three in ten would prevent one (28%). Among those who intend to vote Conservative, the pattern is flipped: six in ten would block a second independence referendum (63%), while three in ten would allow one (27%).

When looking at the results by EU referendum vote, we see that half of Remainers would allow indyref2 within 5 years (49%) compared to three in ten Leavers (31%).

[Jocko]

And of the 23 who have voted here, 56% are against Scotland getting a second referendum.

[JimSh]

And of the 23 who have voted here, 56% are against Scotland getting a second referendum.

Hardly statistical.
As Basil pointed out at the start.
"Isn't this a bit like asking the Europeans if the Brits should have a vote on Brexit ?"
How would those denying Scotland a referendum have felt if the EU had said the UK couldn't have one?
Hotel California?

[Jocko]

How many times do I have to explain. All I want is an idea as to whether the English want Scotland to have a second referendum or not. Not to give them a vote, but to get an idea if Boris' comment about a vote for Labour leading to a Labour/SNP alliance and a second Indy ref had any merit. If the English strongly wanted Scotland out, they may think that a vote for Labour would hurry that on, not what Boris had in mind when he made the comment.
And doh, I know that 23 votes is hardly statistical for the country, but it is for the 23 votes cast here.
I wish I hadn't bothered starting this thread.

[culzean]

I don't think majority in UK want Scotland out of the union - and a hard border in the north of England, they may want to get rid of badly behaved SNP contingent from Westminster though,  and to see the back of the wee ginger krankie... but neither of those may be so much of a problem after 12th December.

[guest4871]

And of the 23 who have voted here, 56% are against Scotland getting a second referendum.

Hardly statistical.
As Basil pointed out at the start.
"Isn't this a bit like asking the Europeans if the Brits should have a vote on Brexit ?"
How would those denying Scotland a referendum have felt if the EU had said the UK couldn't have one?
Hotel California?

Actually it is not if you think about it. Scotland lost it's nationality, as did England, when it joined to become part of the sovereign nation which is the United Kingdom of Great Britain.  We are all British Nationals whether you like it or not and whatever you call yourself or think.

Scotland is only one EU region of twelve in the United Kingdom as is e.g. London, Yorkshire and Humberside etc.

https://www.netherlandsworldwide.nl/countries/united-kingdom/doing-business/uk-regions sets this out well. We could have some fun with NUTS here but I'll pass on that.

So Scotland wishing to leave the United Kingdom is only akin to London wishing to become autonomous outside the United Kingdom.

Each member state of the European Union is it's own sovereign state. It is autonomous subject to it's treaty obligations which treaties it can revoke. Thus Scotland wishing to leave the sovereign state, the United Kingdom of Great Britain, is a matter of the United Kingdom of Great Britain only and any referendum is a reserve power of the United Kingdom Prime Minister only, however heated local opinion may be.

Let's not get on to the West Lothian question which leaves England currently with no Parliament. As we live in a representative democracy, and not a parliamentary democracy as everyone seems to wish to think, England not having it's own Parliament is not too much of a problem as parliamentary representation in the United Kingdom Parliament in Westminster works: remembering, of course, that the last two Labour United Kingdom Governments were predominately Scottish by nature.

As a straw poll Jocko's is a pretty good indicator. I see the optimism of youth set against the realism of age in all these polls which reflects well the UK profile of the ownership of the Honda Jazz .

 

[JimSh]

I don't think majority in UK want Scotland out of the union -

Possibly not but speaking for myself, which is all I can do, I would prefer not to get caught up in the disaster of Brexit and if the only way to escape it is by Scotland becoming independent then that must be the way to go.

they may want to get rid of badly behaved SNP contingent from Westminster though,  and to see the back of the wee ginger krankie... but neither of those may be so much of a problem after 12th December.

I don't think so. The SNP  benches have been the only oasis of sense and consistency throughout the fiasco.
If you are referring to Nicola Sturgeon, I felt she far outperformed the other leader leaders in the recent leader debate.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/26/johnson-corbyn-sturgeon-vote-snp-leadership-scotland

Labour support is very low in Scotland now. Lib Dems are still suffering from their coalition with the Conservatives.
Conservatives may hold a few seats in the North East and Borders but I expect SNP to gain seats at the expense of all the other parties.

Latest edit added link.

[Jocko]

I think the SNP could wipe out most of the opposition in Scotland, though, after years of being an SNP member, I will not be voting for them. Labour seems to have lost the plot with their promises. Free broadband for all, courtesy of a nationalised BT. If every home went for that it would be slower than the old Dial up. Annual MOTs for rented properties. All 4,500,000 properties and rising. Never mind 20,000 more police, we would need almost as many housing inspectors. And £58bn for WASPI women. I am all for that (my wife is one) but with no way to fund it it is just another election lie. All the parties are great at that.

[Basil]

I'm not English but just voted that it should be up to Scotland if they want a referendum.

I wish I could read this thread without childish name calling by certain individuals, grow up and show some respect.

I agree with everything said by JimSH.

According to www.parliament.uk "The United Kingdom is a parliamentary democracy: government is voted into power by the people, to act in the interests of the people." 

[Jocko]

"The United Kingdom is a parliamentary democracy: government is voted into power by the people, to act in the interests of the people."

As is Scotland.

[richardfrost]

Well personally I would attach Lancashire and Yorkshire and all counties North of there to Scotland and call the whole thing The North and give it independence. I was born and raised in Lancashire and lived all of my adult life in Yorkshire. I honestly feel there is greater affinity with Edinburgh than there is with London in these areas.