Author Topic: Auto stop and battery indicator  (Read 14488 times)

orcadian

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Auto stop and battery indicator
« on: January 28, 2019, 06:19:46 PM »
Well we have had our Jazz SE (manual) for about a month now and still liking it.  We never really got anywhere with the service book saga, I really canít be bothered going down a legal route with such an incompetent bunch of numpties.  Iíll just get it stamped next time Iím passing and have nothing more to do with that dealership.

Anyway, to the point of the post:  the engine stop has never actuated in over 500 miles of varied driving.  I have read the manual to discover the situations when it may not activate anyway.  Yesterday after quite a few 20mile plus journeys when I stopped and selected neutral, not only did the circled A come on as usual but the battery symbol also illuminated.  Never having had a stop start car before, am I expecting too much in this colder weather?
Iím not concerned if the stop start never ever works but while I still have a warranty, I WILL poke them with a sharp stick if the battery is failing.
I checked the quiescent battery voltage (12.6) and 14.4 with engine running, so the alternator appears ok.

This sept 2015 car had not been used for over a year after the P.O. passed away, so the battery could have been allowed to go flat.

Any thoughts folks?

andruec

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2019, 06:30:48 PM »
Never having had a stop start car before, am I expecting too much in this colder weather?
No, you're not. You say you haven't encountered it before but you shouldn't be viewing it as new technology, that might be temperamental or new technology you struggle to get to grips with. It's new, yes, but Honda have implemented it well and it should just work.

You say you get the circled 'A' - on its own that means that idle stop is active (there should also be a yellow illuminated symbol on the dash). If there is a problem preventing idle stop the 'A' will be crossed through and something else appears alongside. The symbol you're describing sounds like the 'not enough charge in the battery' warning.

I wonder if - at this time of year - 20 mile journeys might not be enough to charge the battery fully. I remember once I ran my battery down by leaving the interior light on and it took several days before idle stop started working so probably a dozen 12 mile trips - and they were mostly on the open road. That was in summer. I also know that several friends of my Dad's have had to get solar charges for their Jazz because as pensioners a trip to the shops and back once a week result in a flat battery. Methinks that the alternator on the Jazz might be a bit weedy.

There have been reports from some here of cold weather preventing it working but I've never experienced it. It was 2c as I left work today and it kicked in as normal at the second roundabout after only two miles. To me it sounds borderline faulty but if you can find the time for a longer drive during the day when as little electrical equipment as possible is running that might solve the battery problem.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 06:45:07 PM by andruec »

orcadian

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2019, 06:43:30 PM »
Thanks for the quick response,
Yes, itís a manual and so far has never shown any reluctance to start but the auto lights have been on quite a few times in dull conditions.  Iíve driven into Town (about 20 miles each way) with the aircon off, no heated rear window/mirrors on and even the radio Off just to see if it was possible to get thing to stop when I pulled up.  According to the manual it has to be in neutral to get it to idlestop, which is when the auto stop symbol with a bar through it comes on each time.  I might get a drop test done on the battery and if itís less than normal will tackle them about it.  If that produces no result then I might get Honda involved in the whole story from the beginning.

Regards,
Ian

andruec

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2019, 06:49:23 PM »
According to the manual it has to be in neutral to get it to idlestop, which is when the auto stop symbol with a bar through it comes on each time.
Ah, I didn't know that you had to engage neutral. Hmm. That seems almost as odd as the CVT mechanism - that must mean a lot of manual drivers are not benefiting from it and I can't really see why it needs neutral selecting even though I always do myself when driving a manual.
Quote
I might get a drop test done on the battery and if itís less than normal will tackle them about it.  If that produces no result then I might get Honda involved in the whole story from the beginning.
Might be worth a shot. Bear in mind that it's a special battery designed to handle the loading imposed by idle stop so it might require a special test.

culzean

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2019, 07:11:31 PM »
While waiting to walk across a carpark road at local shopping centre the other day a VW stopped at the crossing, and his engine also stopped, he drove about 20 foot to a junction and I heard his engine stop again, this is verging on the ridiculous - can't they put a short delay in the system to stop what appears to be constant instantaneous stopping and starting ?  I was driven in a BMW and on the motorway we hit slow traffic, the same happened - as soon as the car stopped so did the engine - it must have stopped and started 20+ times in less than a mile,  it would drive me bonkers....
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

John A

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2019, 07:57:20 PM »
I believe you can turn it off which will reduce unnecessary stops / starts.

andruec

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2019, 08:05:44 PM »
While waiting to walk across a carpark road at local shopping centre the other day a VW stopped at the crossing, and his engine also stopped, he drove about 20 foot to a junction and I heard his engine stop again, this is verging on the ridiculous - can't they put a short delay in the system to stop what appears to be constant instantaneous stopping and starting ?  I was driven in a BMW and on the motorway we hit slow traffic, the same happened - as soon as the car stopped so did the engine - it must have stopped and started 20+ times in less than a mile,  it would drive me bonkers....
A better question would be why did the VW driver have to stop twice in short succession? Probably leaving their braking a bit late, travelling a bit too fast and not looking far enough ahead. Similar problem in the motorway queue. People do so like to shuffle along bumper to bumper. I try to maintain a gap and fairly steady speed, coming to a complete halt only rarely and then for many seconds.

But why did it bother you? You stop, the engine stops. You go to move away and the engine springs into life before you need it. From an efficiency point of view having it switch off for less than three seconds is sub-optimal but otherwise it doesn't matter. It's just something the car does and something that rarely (very rarely with a little thought) interferes with driving the vehicle.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 08:08:12 PM by andruec »

Kenneve

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2019, 08:38:31 PM »
I can only comment on the stop-start operation in  a CVT car, but find that mine rarely operates simply because I normally don't brake hard enough. There seems to be a minimum brake pedal pressure required to trigger it.
Yes it can be switched off with a button adjacent to the gear lever, but it always defaults to On.
I was always taught to feather the brake as you come to a stop, hence the low brake pressure when stopped.

If the battery is down for any reason I usually get a message in the multi display, saying 'auto stop not available' or some such.

phillywolf

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2019, 09:13:43 PM »
Well we have a brand new Jazz EX manual for 2 weeks now and never has its idle stop start worked. Assume the battery is ok unless it was stored somewhere prior to delivery sitting round in a compound somewhere the battery should be ok. Did a 70 mile jaunt today and idle stop never worked even at the end of it. No air con no radio automatic lights off. Got the same A line through it and the battery at the side. Spoke to the dealer on the weekend and he said it was temperamental and explained how it should work as per handbook which we all know. Thankfully we didn't buy the car for idle stop so not really bothered . Our audi a1 a few years back had it and worked efficiently except for one time when pulling off a junction idle stop kicked in and nearly caused someone to rear end us which would not have been their fault. Turned it off after that never used again. It would be nice if Honda cannot guarantee it to work for everyone perhaps they should maybe delete the aid.

John Ratsey

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2019, 10:56:09 PM »
The auto stop can be temperamental. Last week my HR-V was with the local dealer for three days so they could test it and try to reassure me that it was working correctly (the core problem being the low battery symbol). The measurements were sent to Honda who responded that the system was working as they would expect. That it doesn't work as I would expect appears to be irrelevant.

I had a long discussion with the workshop manager and one of the technicians. Among the points mentioned were (i) some parameters (battery?) are only measured at the beginning of a trip when the engine is started and (ii) there is a long list of parameters which are considered by the ECU before deciding whether to stop the engine as it wants to be confident that the engine will restart without hesitation. I had deduced the first check when I had a Mk 3 Jazz. The vehicle had been standing for a few days and I then did a 100 mile trip of which the first 80 were on motorway (ie plenty of time for the battery to be charged) and then some urban driving where the stop-start system didn't work due to low battery. However, after a stop for a break the system was fine. My antidote to these problems is to manually charge the battery if the vehicle hasn't been used for more than a couple of days so that the battery check when the engine is started can tick the right boxes.

However, the dissertation above is only relevant if the battery symbol is showing on the mult-function display. For the first few miles of each journey it's normally a thermometer (= engine temperature) and once that has warmed up the next impediment is the cabin temperature (A/C showing on the display) which doesn't just mean air conditioning but also includes the heating being too far from the set temperature. Turning the fan off will remove this impediment.

As for auto-stop and the CVT transmission: It should work when the vehicle is stopped and the brake pedal firmly pressed down. There's no need to touch the gear stick. If the brake pedal is pressed less firmly then the auto-stop won't work (brake pedal symbol on the multi-function display) which is useful to avoid the engine stopping when getting close to the front of the queue at a roundabout.

ColinB

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2019, 03:26:09 AM »
My experience (manual box) after 3 years of ownership is that cold weather makes the system much less likely to operate. Last winter I took it back to the dealer because of what seemed like erratic behaviour (eg not working after a long drive that should have charged the battery fully, sometimes working and sometimes not in the course of the same journey); their conclusion was that it was working properly. And indeed all was back to normal when the ambient temperature improved.

One of the inhibiting factors is "battery internal temperature" and my best guess is that this can take some time to warm up if the car is in a "cold soak" situation, and may not actually warm up enough even on a long journey.

As for how to get it to work, my procedure is:
1. Car stopped, eg at lights.
2. Handbrake on (not sure if this is essential, but it's my habit).
3. Gear lever in neutral, foot off clutch.
4. Engine will stop, assuming none of the inhibiting factors are present.
5. Engine restarts as soon as clutch is depressed.

John A

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2019, 06:45:05 AM »
My new to me CVT Jazz will have it, on a manual Qashqai it seemed overly wanting to stop the engine, so that you'd stop at traffic lights, for example, which were on red, and of course once stopped and handbrake on the engine stopped, and very frequently the lights would almost immediately change and so the engine would start up again. Got to the point where I was switching it off as it seemed to be making me think about how I was to use the car to use the feature properly, rather that it being an aid.

Don't do much city driving and so the amount of fuel it saved was small, if I was driving only in cities, then I can see it'll make a difference to the pollution levels and my fuel consumption.

orcadian

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2019, 08:52:23 AM »
Many thanks folks for the excellent replies, so really it would appear that it is one of those systems designed to appease the tree huggers.  I can see the benefit in congested cities where it MIGHT reduce the effects of harmful emissions but up here in Orkney, if we encounter 10 vehicles on our 20 mile drive to the metropolis (Kirkwall) we consider it busy.  Since buying the car just before Christmas the temperature has rarely got into double figures and the battery has definitely been regularly cold soaked, so Iíll keep an eye on it in the better weather.
I feel a bit more confident about the battery now but didnít want to wait too long before reporting it to the Dealer in case they wouldnít honour the warranty.  I will definitely report the Ďproblemí if indeed there is one, by email, so at least I have a record of their response, should I need it.  Iím certainly not going to be charging the battery every few days if we havenít used the car - thatís going back to the dark ages well before all this largely unwanted technology appeared on our cars.  If modern cars canít be left at an airport for a 3 week holiday without a problem, they are clearly not fit for purpose.

Thanks again everyone,
Ian

Jocko

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2019, 09:48:04 AM »
If modern cars canít be left at an airport for a 3 week holiday without a problem, they are clearly not fit for purpose.
I left my Jazz parked up for 6 weeks while I recovered from surgery, and it turned over and started, first turn of the key. Same as if it had been only parked overnight.

culzean

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2019, 10:14:28 AM »
If modern cars can’t be left at an airport for a 3 week holiday without a problem, they are clearly not fit for purpose.
I left my Jazz parked up for 6 weeks while I recovered from surgery, and it turned over and started, first turn of the key. Same as if it had been only parked overnight.

My wifes car has been left for a long  time as well ( MK2 Si ) about 5 weeks and on return I hooked the charger up just as a precaution,  the charger went from amber ( charging / checking)  to green light ( trickle charge) within 10 minutes,  which meant the battery was still pretty well fully charged ( Yuasa Silver).  But we don't have the bells and whistles of more recent Jazz ( alarms, keyless gizmo and all the other tech) that can cause high parasitic loads on battery....

Even a standby load of 100milliamps will drop the battery by 1 a/h every 10 hours, ( 2.5 a/h per day ). Car makers are supposed to set a maximum parasitic load for electronics systems etc at 75millamps ( which is still about 2 a/h per day ) - but apparently if you leave your fob within range of a keyless system it can draw a fair amount of current as the system stays powered up.

These figures are OK if car is used every day,  but if left for a week or more they can be bad news.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 10:28:45 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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