Author Topic: WTO rules?  (Read 29450 times)

zzaj

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Re: WTO rules?
« Reply #570 on: March 14, 2019, 07:34:02 PM »
I've had a question on my mind for sometime.

Do people who complain about "chlorinated chicken" (i.e. chlorine washed chicken) drink chlorinated water?

For quite a number of years, maintenance and operation of chlorination plant was part of my job.

The level of chlorine in drinking water is minute compared to the level in water used for bacterial control on organic matter.

Surely chlorine in drinking water is also used for bacterial control on organic matter. Presumably the same amount is required to kill a bug. The issue seems to be the residual amount left on the chicken versus the amount in the drinking water not the amount used in the process. 

Chlorinated chicken appears to be much safer for human consumption than untreated chicken.

People appear to be made to feel averse to chlorinated chicken but not to drinking water (or swimming pools even).

This does sound like EU spin again protecting inefficient farmers.

JimSh

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Re: WTO rules?
« Reply #571 on: March 14, 2019, 07:40:17 PM »
According to a report from the Adam Smith Institute , “immersing poultry meat in chlorine dioxide solution of the strength used in the United States reduces prevalence of salmonella from 14% in controls to 2%. EU chicken samples typically have 15-20% salmonella.”

Balanced article from The Grocer:

https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/food-safety/chlorinated-chicken-explained-why-do-the-americans-treat-their-poultry-with-chlorine/555618.article

It sounds like chlorinated chicken is a very good preventative for reducing human health risk.

So people should risk their lives and their families lives to prevent any potential risk of harm to a chicken?

And what is wrong with more investment in our health care systems?

Or should people die because the money to save them comes from private individuals as shareholders rather than as tax payers?

The Adam Smith Institute is an economic think tank encouraging Free Trade not a biological research institution.

The chlorination at the end of the process encourages sloppy procedures during the rearing and slaughtering of the animals in the hope that it any harmful organisms are eliminated at the end.

I was not suggesting that people put their children at risk to prevent harm to a chicken. People's health may be put at risk through dangerous procedures in animal husbandry and slaughtering.

If our health system is opened up to American big Pharma it gives them a license to make money.

People will die because they cannot afford health care.



culzean

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Re: WTO rules?
« Reply #572 on: March 14, 2019, 07:53:41 PM »
I've had a question on my mind for sometime.

Do people who complain about "chlorinated chicken" (i.e. chlorine washed chicken) drink chlorinated water?

For quite a number of years, maintenance and operation of chlorination plant was part of my job.

The level of chlorine in drinking water is minute compared to the level in water used for bacterial control on organic matter.

Surely chlorine in drinking water is also used for bacterial control on organic matter. Presumably the same amount is required to kill a bug. The issue seems to be the residual amount left on the chicken versus the amount in the drinking water not the amount used in the process. 

Chlorinated chicken appears to be much safer for human consumption than untreated chicken.

People appear to be made to feel averse to chlorinated chicken but not to drinking water (or swimming pools even).

This does sound like EU spin again protecting inefficient farmers.


The cheapest form of chlorine is chlorine gas ( same stuff Germany used on western front in WW2 ) this is used for water treatment together with High intensity UV light at the pumping station which kills bugs but the chlorine is added for residual protection further along the system,  I would add one thing, how many people drink 6 pints of chicken a day ?
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

culzean

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Re: WTO rules?
« Reply #573 on: March 14, 2019, 08:47:43 PM »
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-safe-to-eat-meat-from-animals-that-have-been-fed-growth-hormone-and-antibiotics

See charts in second answer, there is far more oestrogen in a potato than in hormone treated beef steak.......
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

sparky Paul

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Re: WTO rules?
« Reply #574 on: March 14, 2019, 08:58:56 PM »
https://fullfact.org/europe/does-eu-say-its-safe-eat-chicken-rinsed-chlorine/

LOL

Just another case of notorious EU non tariff barriers to trade, protectionism, call it what you like....

I don't think anyone is saying it's intrinsically unsafe, just that it can be used to mask poor hygiene practises in the slaughterhouse or further down the line.

I live a few miles away from the business that was caught a few years ago processing vast quantities of chicken breast that had been condemned as not fit for human consumption, repackaging it and selling it on to the catering trade. The meat was dyed to mark it fit only for pet food, they were chlorine bleaching it to remove the dye, trimming the bad and repackaging it.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 09:06:28 PM by sparky Paul »

sparky Paul

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Re: WTO rules?
« Reply #575 on: March 14, 2019, 09:04:47 PM »
Surely chlorine in drinking water is also used for bacterial control on organic matter. Presumably the same amount is required to kill a bug.

We used to dose drinking water from borehole with 0.3 ppm Chlorine, 'chlorinated chicken' as they call it is washed with a 20-50ppm solution.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 10:14:20 PM by sparky Paul »

Jocko

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Re: WTO rules?
« Reply #576 on: March 14, 2019, 09:13:21 PM »
Salad stuff from the EU.

For Lettuce, Tomato and Cucumber
Agitate for 5 to 10 minutes at 100 to 150 ppm active chlorine in water.

For Cress, Onions and Mushrooms
Agitate for 5 to 10 minutes at 200 to 300 ppm active chlorine in water. The concentration of active chlorine in the wash solution and the contact time can be varied within limits but active chlorine levels should be kept below 300 ppm.

JimSh

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Re: WTO rules?
« Reply #577 on: March 14, 2019, 09:24:53 PM »
Washing vegetables in chlorine is currently banned in some European countries including Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and Switzerland.
https://ec.europa.eu/programmes/horizon2020/en/news/boost-efficient-safe-food-production
« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 09:27:51 PM by JimSh »

culzean

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Re: WTO rules?
« Reply #578 on: March 14, 2019, 09:41:09 PM »
Washing vegetables in chlorine is currently banned in some European countries including Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and Switzerland.
https://ec.europa.eu/programmes/horizon2020/en/news/boost-efficient-safe-food-production

That article says they don't use chlorine but later on it says they use chlorine dioxide LOL https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide

As I said earlier EU uses weasel words and non tariff barriers to protect inefficient farmers - EU even pays people subsidies for just owning land and growing nothing...
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

JimSh

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Re: WTO rules?
« Reply #579 on: March 14, 2019, 10:37:13 PM »
Washing vegetables in chlorine is currently banned in some European countries including Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and Switzerland.
https://ec.europa.eu/programmes/horizon2020/en/news/boost-efficient-safe-food-production

That article says they don't use chlorine but later on it says they use chlorine dioxide LOL https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide

As I said earlier EU uses weasel words and non tariff barriers to protect inefficient farmers - EU even pays people subsidies for just owning land and growing nothing...

Compounds of chlorine do not have the same properties as chlorine.
Chlorine Dioxide (ClO2) is becoming increasingly used for water purification because of its unique combination of properties: a powerful, yet selective oxidant and biocide, disinfectant and sanitiser.
https://feedwater.co.uk/chlorine-dioxide-water-treatment/

Sodium chloride is salt. You wouldn't object to putting that on your lettuce.


I would rather have small farmers managing the land even if they are being subsidised for maintaining some of it for environmental reasons than rich Tories owning vast tracts of lands for hunting shooting and fishing.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 11:18:22 PM by JimSh »

richardfrost

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Re: WTO rules?
« Reply #580 on: March 14, 2019, 11:16:13 PM »
The cheapest form of chlorine is chlorine gas ( same stuff Germany used on western front in WW2 )
Have you got evidence for this? First I have heard of gas being used in combat in WW2.

richardfrost

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Re: WTO rules?
« Reply #581 on: March 14, 2019, 11:19:59 PM »
I've had a question on my mind for sometime.

Do people who complain about "chlorinated chicken" (i.e. chlorine washed chicken) drink chlorinated water?
I certainly don’t drink chlorinated water. I suffered with irritable bowel syndrome for many years until I finally tracked it down to tap water. Specifically Yorkshire Water tap water. An ex colleague of mine who works there now tells my Yorkshire Water add chlorine to bleach out the peaty colour of their water. Since excluding tap water from my diet, I have been very healthy. I should say I drink a lot of water every day.

MartinJG

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Re: WTO rules?
« Reply #582 on: March 15, 2019, 01:34:15 AM »
The cheapest form of chlorine is chlorine gas ( same stuff Germany used on western front in WW2 )
Have you got evidence for this? First I have heard of gas being used in combat in WW2.

A reminder for those who are familiar. An education for those who are not.

Dulce et Decorum Est
BY WILFRED OWEN
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime.—
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

ColinS

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Re: WTO rules?
« Reply #583 on: March 15, 2019, 07:43:54 AM »
Thank you for educating us ::).  That does in fact refer to WW1.  Further education is available at https://www.sciencehistory.org/distillations/magazine/a-brief-history-of-chemical-war, although I can't imagine that chemical warfare will be used during Brexit negotiations.

culzean

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Re: WTO rules?
« Reply #584 on: March 15, 2019, 07:50:45 AM »
Washing vegetables in chlorine is currently banned in some European countries including Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and Switzerland.
https://ec.europa.eu/programmes/horizon2020/en/news/boost-efficient-safe-food-production

That article says they don't use chlorine but later on it says they use chlorine dioxide LOL https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide

As I said earlier EU uses weasel words and non tariff barriers to protect inefficient farmers - EU even pays people subsidies for just owning land and growing nothing...

Compounds of chlorine do not have the same properties as chlorine.
Chlorine Dioxide (ClO2) is becoming increasingly used for water purification because of its unique combination of properties: a powerful, yet selective oxidant and biocide, disinfectant and sanitiser.
https://feedwater.co.uk/chlorine-dioxide-water-treatment/

Sodium chloride is salt. You wouldn't object to putting that on your lettuce.


I would rather have small farmers managing the land even if they are being subsidised for maintaining some of it for environmental reasons than rich Tories owning vast tracts of lands for hunting shooting and fishing.

If you read the wikipedia article fully Chorine Dioxide is tightly controlled in USA because it forms a compound called chlorite and in American tapwater is limited to 1ppm,  and you are OK with EU using it on your food ?

here Is extract...

'The use of chlorine dioxide in water treatment leads to the formation of the by-product chlorite, which is currently limited to a maximum of 1 ppm in drinking water in the USA.[14]:4–33 This EPA standard limits the use of chlorine dioxide in the USA to relatively high-quality water[why?], or water that is to be treated with iron-based coagulants (iron can reduce chlorite to chloride)'.

'Chlorine dioxide is toxic, hence limits on exposure to it are needed to ensure its safe use. The United States Environmental Protection Agency has set a maximum level of 0.8 mg/L for chlorine dioxide in drinking water.[35] The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), an agency of the United States Department of Labor, has set an 8-hour permissible exposure limit of 0.1 ppm in air (0.3 mg/m3) for people working with chlorine dioxide'

The whole thing about EU subsidies is that the large landowners in UK ARE being paid just because they have land and that is why so much of the 'upper class' is miffed at leaving, including many MP#s and Lords, they stand to lose £100's of thousands a year ( https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/27/revealed-the-mps-and-peers-receiving-millions-in-eu-farm-subsidies-cap ) , an awful lot of working farmers ( not the same as a lot of awful farmers  :o ) as opposed to Chelsea & Kensington farmers driving Chelsea tractors ) voted to leave EU, as did 95% of fishermen ( don't know how many anglers voted leave).
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 08:31:36 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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