Author Topic: Indicating protocol.  (Read 1514 times)

Jocko

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Indicating protocol.
« on: July 06, 2018, 11:22:33 AM »
I posted this on another thread but thought it may be worthy of a thread of its own.

I indicate whether there is anyone to see me or not. If anyone sees my signal (pedestrian, driver in a parked car about to pull out, other motorist) then it has not been wasted. I no one sees it then it is like the tree that falls in the wood (If no one sees it, does it make a sound?). The instructor on my PCV trained advocated that, as did the driving instructor who carried out my assessment a few weeks back.
The only time I do not signal is when returning to my own lane after overtaking. Again something I was taught on my PCV training. The Highway Code says you drive on the left so there is no need to signal. It is a given. The only exception is, if you have a Beemer or the like, right up your chuff, then I signal, to put him off undertaking as I allow space in front of the vehicle I have just overtaken.

peteo48

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Re: Indicating protocol.
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2018, 01:13:24 PM »
On another forum, not a motoring one, there was quite a heated debate about this. There is a view that if you are signalling "robotically" without assessing whether there is anyone to see the signal, then you are in auto pilot mode and not really thinking.

I first came across that way of thinking with my late step father. He was a member of the Institute of Advanced Motorists and was quite firm in his belief that you do not need to signal if the following criteria are met:

1) There are no cars following, approaching or emerging from the turn you want to take.
2) There are no pedestrians on the pavement near your manoeuvre.
3) There are no cyclists following, approaching or emerging.

I'm not sure where I stand on this. I'm not put to the test that often as it's pretty busy round our way but I do look for anybody who could benefit from a signal and, if there is nobody around, I don't signal. This is hardly ever the case as it goes but I guess you could say that before signalling I am making all the necessary observations.


I think there may be strong views on either side!

ColinS

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Re: Indicating protocol.
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2018, 02:01:49 PM »
I stick by what I said on another thread.  I indicate every time, even if I think the road is clear.  I was taught that way for good reason.  The time you miss seeing something is when you will cause a crash.

My instructor said "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre" and not "Mirror, Only signal if you see something, Manoeuvre".

peteo48

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Re: Indicating protocol.
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2018, 02:08:18 PM »
I stick by what I said on another thread.  I indicate every time, even if I think the road is clear.  I was taught that way for good reason.  The time you miss seeing something is when you will cause a crash.

My instructor said "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre" and not "Mirror, Only signal if you see something, Manoeuvre".

I think that is quite a persuasive argument. Pedestrian in a blind spot etc etc.

Of course there are other areas. Do you need to signal if, having overtaken a vehicle on the motorway, you are returning to he left hand lane? I'm pretty sure the advice here is that you don't need to signal if the road is relatively clear. That said, I always do signal in that situation.

culzean

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Re: Indicating protocol.
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2018, 02:25:09 PM »
I stick by what I said on another thread.  I indicate every time, even if I think the road is clear.  I was taught that way for good reason.  The time you miss seeing something is when you will cause a crash.

My instructor said "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre" and not "Mirror, Only signal if you see something, Manoeuvre".

The only thing I do 'automatically' is look in the mirrors very frequently. When you start doing things automatically without thinking it can be a downward spiral.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Ozzie

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Re: Indicating protocol.
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2018, 03:58:05 PM »
So if you are moving away from the side of the road, and you want another road user to go first would you signal and wait for them to pass . . . . or wait for them to pass then signal?

peteo48

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Re: Indicating protocol.
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2018, 04:24:43 PM »
I stick by what I said on another thread.  I indicate every time, even if I think the road is clear.  I was taught that way for good reason.  The time you miss seeing something is when you will cause a crash.

My instructor said "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre" and not "Mirror, Only signal if you see something, Manoeuvre".

The only thing I do 'automatically' is look in the mirrors very frequently. When you start doing things automatically without thinking it can be a downward spiral.


Almost exactly the sentiments of my late step father. This is an interesting summary:

https://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/associate-s-guide/56-signalling

culzean

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Re: Indicating protocol.
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2018, 05:02:50 PM »
I stick by what I said on another thread.  I indicate every time, even if I think the road is clear.  I was taught that way for good reason.  The time you miss seeing something is when you will cause a crash.

My instructor said "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre" and not "Mirror, Only signal if you see something, Manoeuvre".

The only thing I do 'automatically' is look in the mirrors very frequently. When you start doing things automatically without thinking it can be a downward spiral.


Almost exactly the sentiments of my late step father. This is an interesting summary:

https://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/associate-s-guide/56-signalling

good article,  it also says '1 blink of the indicator for every 10mph before pulling out....'  (which is why I indicate well before I leave a lane and only cancel when I am actually in the other lane).

 ( This is even more imperative on the motorways where speeds are greater and time is shorter.  So on motorways, and only if it would benefit another road user, allow one signal click for every 10 mph before you change a lane.  At 70mph you should therefore plan for 7 clicks before changing lanes.  If you are the sort of driver who is inclined to 'FLASH 'N' GO' it indicates to all around you that you are not planning sufficiently far enough ahead. )

So that knocks the automatic 3 blinks 'lane change' into touch.....
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

culzean

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Re: Indicating protocol.
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2018, 05:09:50 PM »
So if you are moving away from the side of the road, and you want another road user to go first would you signal and wait for them to pass . . . . or wait for them to pass then signal?

If I want them to pass I would put my nearside indicator on till they are past and then if anyone else coming up at a safe distance I would change to offside indicator and pull away. What I would not do is just signal to an empty road (would that be a test fail).  You also have to look forwards and make sure no-one overtaking coming the other way that could bring them onto your side of the road.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Ozzie

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Re: Indicating protocol.
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2018, 06:12:25 PM »
Signalling to an empty road wouldn't be a test fail, but indicating too early before moving away, making other vehicles slow down would be a fail. So wait for a safe gap, signal for any other road users or pedestrians that may benefit from a signal and away you go.

Jocko

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Re: Indicating protocol.
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2018, 06:50:26 PM »
I don't signal if there is a vehicle coming up behind me. In fact, I try to avoid starting the engine until it is clear to pull out. I then would only signal if I felt it would benefit someone (the exception that proves my rule). I always signal when pulling away from parked at my flat. There is junction opposite and a light controlled crossing a few feet away (we are talking about a parking layby here, not just parked in the road). I am very particular about using my mirrors. In fact, I still check the nearside mirror for "tail swing", twelve years after giving up bus driving!

ColinB

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Re: Indicating protocol.
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2018, 10:07:52 PM »
Iím in the ďgive a signal if it would benefit another road userĒ camp. That means youíre constantly thinking about, and assessing, the situation around you which seems like a good thing.

Regarding signalling when returning to lane 1 of a dual carriageway after an overtake, I never used to do this if no-one would benefit (eg no vehicle following). However the lane departure warning on the Jazz sounds if I donít signal, so itís less stressful to give the unnecessary signal rather than having to explain to a passenger who may not understand why the car is suddenly sounding an alarm. So that system actually inhibits good driving behaviour by encouraging ďautomatic signallingĒ. Yes, I know it can be turned off, but it might serve itís purpose one day.

Ozzie

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Re: Indicating protocol.
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2018, 05:03:30 PM »
Regarding signalling when returning to lane 1 of a dual carriageway after an overtake, I never used to do this if no-one would benefit (eg no vehicle following).
The vehicle you have just overtaken may benefit from the signal, just so they know when you are coming back to the left.

ColinB

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Re: Indicating protocol.
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2018, 05:54:06 PM »
Regarding signalling when returning to lane 1 of a dual carriageway after an overtake, I never used to do this if no-one would benefit (eg no vehicle following).
The vehicle you have just overtaken may benefit from the signal, just so they know when you are coming back to the left.
Thatís what I said, if another road user would benefit then Iíll signal. But in general Iíll get well forward before moving back into lane 1, that move shouldnít be a surprise to them (thatís what the Highway Code says, right ?) and in any case theyíll be moving slower than me so our relative separation will be increasing. Itís difficult to imagine circumstances where Iíd need to cut into their 2-second space but if they did arise then yes, Iíd probably signal. Itís all about being aware of whatís going on around you and responding accordingly rather than signalling without thinking.

Jocko

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Re: Indicating protocol.
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2018, 06:00:17 PM »
I don't indicate right when joining traffic at the top of a sliproad. Unless I am going to travel down the hard shoulder, or along the grass verge, there is nowhere else for me to go but into the carriageway. I was taught that that was a redundant signal, and not required. The only exception I would make is when joining queuing traffic, when I would signal to say "I am coming in in front of you".

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