Author Topic: Jazz 2013 - aircon provides hot air while in traffic jam  (Read 635 times)

Bonobo

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Jazz 2013 - aircon provides hot air while in traffic jam
« on: June 28, 2018, 06:20:25 PM »
Hello everyone.
Has any of you encountered this before? When my Jazz 2013 stop in a traffic jam, after a minute or so, the air-con becomes not cold and started blowing hot air if car is not moving. However, when car moves, it starts to turn cold again.
Checked A/C fuse number 10, looks OK. What else can I do to identify the root of the problem?

culzean

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Re: Jazz 2013 - aircon provides hot air while in traffic jam
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2018, 07:44:46 PM »
Hello everyone.
Has any of you encountered this before? When my Jazz 2013 stop in a traffic jam, after a minute or so, the air-con becomes not cold and started blowing hot air if car is not moving. However, when car moves, it starts to turn cold again.
Checked A/C fuse number 10, looks OK. What else can I do to identify the root of the problem?

If it was a fuse or any other failed part it would never blow cold. Would not be surprised if car is not turning aircon off to save fuel, does your car have idle stop ?  Other thing is can you hear the aircon radiator fan working when car is stopped, may be if fan has failed the car needs to be moving to get airflow through radiator.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

zzaj

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Re: Jazz 2013 - aircon provides hot air while in traffic jam
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2018, 09:08:04 PM »
It may need regassing.

Get someone to check the freon gas pressure.

(Don't buy a DIY kit. You risk doing more harm than good).

If it needs regassing, make sure they also add a/c oil and UV dye to spot for leaks in the system.

If the issue repeats after regassing they will be able to identify the leak.

Otherwise, it could be the compressor is on its way out (unlikely but possible).

Bonobo

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Re: Jazz 2013 - aircon provides hot air while in traffic jam
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2018, 10:27:19 PM »
Would not be surprised if car is not turning aircon off to save fuel, does your car have idle stop ? 
Yes, it does have idle stop. So A/C cannot work when engine is off, can it?

Other thing is can you hear the aircon radiator fan working when car is stopped, may be if fan has failed the car needs to be moving to get airflow through radiator.
I do not remember any noise when engine stopped.  How do I check whether fan is rotating? Where is it located?

culzean

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Re: Jazz 2013 - aircon provides hot air while in traffic jam
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2018, 09:09:30 AM »
Would not be surprised if car is not turning aircon off to save fuel, does your car have idle stop ? 
Yes, it does have idle stop. So A/C cannot work when engine is off, can it?

Other thing is can you hear the aircon radiator fan working when car is stopped, may be if fan has failed the car needs to be moving to get airflow through radiator.
I do not remember any noise when engine stopped.  How do I check whether fan is rotating? Where is it located?

No the aircon cannot work when engine is not running because aircon compressor is driven off the same auxiliary belt as the water pump and alternator.  I would have thought idle stop would have known aircon was selected and not allowed the engine to stop (especially when the outside temperature gauge on car is reading best part of 30 degC).

You will hear the fan it is pretty loud (both of the large electric fans at front of car operate when aircon is turned on),  the aircon heat exchanger is the large radiator on drivers side at the very front of car,  right next to engine cooling radiator,  both the engine and aircon rad cooling fan come on when aircon is working.

Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

culzean

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Re: Jazz 2013 - aircon provides hot air while in traffic jam
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2018, 09:14:42 AM »
(Don't buy a DIY kit. You risk doing more harm than good).

I have used DIY kits for many, many years without a problem (working on the sound premise that systems never gain gas, just lose it through seals) - you just need to add gas a bit at a time until aircon is blowing as cold as you like it to.  If system is ever emptied then a known amount of gas and oil by weight needs to be put back in,  but for the occasional top up the DIY kits are fine and they normally last us (2 cars) for 4 or 5 years - so about 4 per year per car  :D
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 10:13:08 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Jazz 2013 - aircon provides hot air while in traffic jam
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2018, 09:29:19 AM »
I used to service Polycold refrigeration systems, which we used on our Hi Vacuum Coating systems as a cheap alternative to Liquid Nitrogen. We used vacuum pumps to evacuate systems before charging, and charging manifolds like this

for connecting between system, charging cylinder and vacuum pump. It is the only way to do it right. I would never consider a DIY charge. It needs to be done right. We also used a sophisticated helium Leak Detector, far superior to dye, but we had that available in plant for our vacuum coating machines which worked down to 1 x 10-6 Torr.

Kenneve

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Re: Jazz 2013 - aircon provides hot air while in traffic jam
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2018, 09:45:34 AM »
I very often get the message in this weather, when coming to a stop,  'Idle stop not available', which presumably is because the A/C is running, so it would appear the system does know the difference.

culzean

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Re: Jazz 2013 - aircon provides hot air while in traffic jam
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2018, 10:08:23 AM »
For interest - here are some amazing pictures and diagrams of car aircon systems.

https://www.google.com/search?q=exploded+diagram+of+honda+air+conditioning+compressor+clutch&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=TAKdZdsuLEknAM%253A%252COVKchHKmH9PJoM%252C_&usg=__jDMFU6f8FnHHMm-lXOOxvDLIh4U%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiwgNitvvjbAhUJDMAKHebsD7QQ9QEIMzAA#imgrc=q05rhWEvLtuOPM:

There is an electro-magnetic clutch between the driven pulley and the compressor,  this clutch is controlled by an output signal the ECU through a heavy duty relay normally mounted in engine compartment fusebox and various sensors (a temperature sensor to stop 'cold side' condenser / evaporator freezing up etc. and a pressure sensor to stop the clutch activating if there is not sufficient gas pressure in the system,  and also a high pressure sensor to stop clutch if system gas pressure is too high).  The way it works is that when you compress a gas it gives off heat (feel the tyre pump barrel when you blow your bike tyre up),  and if you allow a gas to expand it takes back the lost heat from its surroundings - the hot (high pressure up to +90 PSI) side is the compressor and heat exchanger radiator next to engine cooling radiator at front of car which cools the hot gas,  the cold side is the condensor / evaporator (low pressure side about 25 PSI) mounted inside the car which allows the gas to expand and cool down the air flowing past it into the car interior.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 10:11:39 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

zzaj

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Re: Jazz 2013 - aircon provides hot air while in traffic jam
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2018, 11:14:35 AM »
(Don't buy a DIY kit. You risk doing more harm than good).

I have used DIY kits for many, many years without a problem (working on the sound premise that systems never gain gas, just lose it through seals) - you just need to add gas a bit at a time until aircon is blowing as cold as you like it to.  If system is ever emptied then a known amount of gas and oil by weight needs to be put back in,  but for the occasional top up the DIY kits are fine and they normally last us (2 cars) for 4 or 5 years - so about 4 per year per car  :D

I bow to your greater experience, however the problems with a DIY kit are (a) knowing what you are doing (b) the pressure gauges being unreliable (c) the more commonly available regassing kits also contain a sealant to seal any potential leaks (even if you don't have one!) which then bungs up the compressor (d) the kits are more expensive to buy than a full recharge. (e) You can risk an expensive bill to fix the system if it all goes wrong.

zzaj

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Re: Jazz 2013 - aircon provides hot air while in traffic jam
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2018, 11:16:08 AM »
I used to service Polycold refrigeration systems, which we used on our Hi Vacuum Coating systems as a cheap alternative to Liquid Nitrogen. We used vacuum pumps to evacuate systems before charging, and charging manifolds like this

for connecting between system, charging cylinder and vacuum pump. It is the only way to do it right. I would never consider a DIY charge. It needs to be done right. We also used a sophisticated helium Leak Detector, far superior to dye, but we had that available in plant for our vacuum coating machines which worked down to 1 x 10-6 Torr.

+1

culzean

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Re: Jazz 2013 - aircon provides hot air while in traffic jam
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2018, 11:53:25 AM »
I bow to your greater experience, however the problems with a DIY kit are (a) knowing what you are doing (b) the pressure gauges being unreliable (c) the more commonly available regassing kits also contain a sealant to seal any potential leaks (even if you don't have one!) which then bungs up the compressor (d) the kits are more expensive to buy than a full recharge. (e) You can risk an expensive bill to fix the system if it all goes wrong.

You just have to accept the facts that

1. they are available, and you get what you pay for, buy a cheap filling hose and you get an unreliable pressure gauge.
2. most people with common sense and an IQ higher than their shoe size can use them successfully, just follow instructions on the bottle.
3. they are not expensive if they last 5 years+ for two cars. 
4. that systems only rarely need a full excavation / recharge
5. most systems lose a small and fairly consistent amount of gas each year
6. there is no mystery about aircon (much as people who make money out of it would like to create one) it is just transfer of energy (heat pump) by gas getting compressed and expanding,  just a bit of physics that makes our lives more comfortable.
7. the DIY kits are not meant for a full system excavation and  recharge - just the occasional top-up.
8. I have never destroyed an aircon system and needed to pay for expensive (or  any) repairs
9. I have never to my knowledge had a 'bunged up' compressor.

System performance is degraded when too much gas in the system as well as (more commonly) too little gas, the gas needs correct free volume inside system to expand properly after it has been compressed,  that is why a full recharge needs a known amount of gas by weight to be put back into system,  and a vacuum is used to make sure any substance in the system (oil etc) is evaporated and taken out before fresh is put back in.   Most reputable leak sealers react with oxygen or moisture in the atmosphere on the outside of the system to seal leaks and do not cure inside the system.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

zzaj

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Re: Jazz 2013 - aircon provides hot air while in traffic jam
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2018, 11:57:18 AM »
Would not be surprised if car is not turning aircon off to save fuel, does your car have idle stop ? 
Yes, it does have idle stop. So A/C cannot work when engine is off, can it?

Other thing is can you hear the aircon radiator fan working when car is stopped, may be if fan has failed the car needs to be moving to get airflow through radiator.
I do not remember any noise when engine stopped.  How do I check whether fan is rotating? Where is it located?

No the aircon cannot work when engine is not running because aircon compressor is driven off the same auxiliary belt as the water pump and alternator.  I would have thought idle stop would have known aircon was selected and not allowed the engine to stop (especially when the outside temperature gauge on car is reading best part of 30 degC).

You will hear the fan it is pretty loud (both of the large electric fans at front of car operate when aircon is turned on),  the aircon heat exchanger is the large radiator on drivers side at the very front of car,  right next to engine cooling radiator,  both the engine and aircon rad cooling fan come on when aircon is working.

I was under the impression that the compressor in a stop/ start car is electrically powered not mechanically by a pulley.

Therefore as Kenneve says you should get a message which says 'Idle stop not available' if the battery cannot support the aircon.

I think the 2013 Mk 2 ES is a bit of an odd ball as it seems to be the only Mk2 with stop/ start. With a normal Mk2 the aircon does not work with the engine not working. How this all works in a 2013 Mk 2 with stop/ start I am not at all sure. I agree it should, in theory, cancel the stop/start not the aircon which seems to be happening.

I find a quick and dirty way to check how efficient the aircon system is working is to run the car some short distance, then turn the aircon temp to Minimum and the fan to Maximum, stick a thermometer well into the air vents. The temperature should be about 7C (45F) in the vents. The difference between the actual reading and the outside temperature will give an indication of efficiency eg if the vent reading is 17C and the outside temperature is 27C then the system is about 50% efficient. i.e. 17C is halfway between 27C and 7C.

zzaj

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Re: Jazz 2013 - aircon provides hot air while in traffic jam
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2018, 12:05:58 PM »
I bow to your greater experience, however the problems with a DIY kit are (a) knowing what you are doing (b) the pressure gauges being unreliable (c) the more commonly available regassing kits also contain a sealant to seal any potential leaks (even if you don't have one!) which then bungs up the compressor (d) the kits are more expensive to buy than a full recharge. (e) You can risk an expensive bill to fix the system if it all goes wrong.

You just have to accept the facts that

1. they are available, and you get what you pay for, buy a cheap filling hose and you get an unreliable pressure gauge.
2. most people with common sense and an IQ higher than their shoe size can use them successfully, just follow instructions on the bottle.
3. they are not expensive if they last 5 years+ for two cars. 
4. that systems only rarely need a full excavation / recharge
5. most systems lose a small and fairly consistent amount of gas each year
6. there is no mystery about aircon (much as people who make money out of it would like to create one) it is just transfer of energy (heat pump) by gas getting compressed and expanding,  just a bit of physics that makes our lives more comfortable.
7. the DIY kits are not meant for a full system excavation and  recharge - just the occasional top-up.
8. I have never destroyed an aircon system and needed to pay for expensive (or  any) repairs
9. I have never to my knowledge had a 'bunged up' compressor.

System performance is degraded when too much gas in the system as well as (more commonly) too little gas, the gas needs correct free volume inside system to expand properly after it has been compressed,  that is why a full recharge needs a known amount of gas by weight to be put back into system,  and a vacuum is used to make sure any substance in the system (oil etc) is evaporated and taken out before fresh is put back in.   Most reputable leak sealers react with oxygen or moisture in the atmosphere on the outside of the system to seal leaks and do not cure inside the system.

I agree with everything you say in the context of what you say. My last car never needed topping up in 10 years.

And, yes, many of us do have the IQ of a shoe size.

The issue here was/ is that Bonobo has hot air coming out of his aircon when he is in stop/ start mode.

culzean

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Re: Jazz 2013 - aircon provides hot air while in traffic jam
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2018, 02:11:12 PM »
@ Bonobo

I doubt very much that the aircon is electrically powered in idle stop / start as it would consume an enormous amount of power (which it does in EV but they have a much bigger battery).   That means that if aircon is needed the only thing idle stop system can do is to keep engine running,  that is probably why idle stop is not available in hotter weather with aircon switched on.  Just try disabling idle stop and see if aircon stays cold, or if engine is running and aircon air is warming up try revving the engine and see if extra compressor speed cools the air down, maybe that gas is a bit low or compressor is not 100% so that at lower engine speed the flow of gas is not sufficient to cool system properly. 

May as well check cabin air filter to see if it is blocked as well, as low airflow can cause bad cooling as well.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 02:13:17 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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