Author Topic: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.  (Read 2140 times)

sparky Paul

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Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2019, 01:41:13 PM »
When you replace rear pads which also operate as the handbrake, don't touch the the handbrake until you have pumped the brake pedal several times to operate the adjusters within the calipers, seating the new pads onto the discs. Then you can try the handbrake and adjust the cable if necessary. It is a similar procedure with rear drums, there is an auto adjuster on each brake mechanism.

Also, you should never have to file the ears on the pads, I have never had to do this in 30+ years of replacing pads. The problem is normally caused by a build up of scale on the calipers, in particular under the shims on the Jazz. The shims must be removed and the scale should be cleaned off carefully with a scraper before reassembly and a thin smear of brake grease or copper grease applied to the bright surfaces. You must get back to the milled surface, you will find that the new pads and clean anti rattle shims will then fit in easily.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 01:53:15 PM by sparky Paul »

culzean

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Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2019, 03:06:51 PM »
It's weird, because the old "02" plate never needed anything done to the brakes at all really during the 5 or 6 years of ownership.

The rear drums on our early model MK1's never gave a minutes trouble except to adjust the cable very occasionally,  my earlier Civic had rear drums that needed new shoes at 120,000 miles, the drums were perfect. The rear discs on later model Jazz are problematic, the front disc brakes should not give problems other than new pads needed occasionally and new discs every so often.  The Rear discs on my wifes MK2 were rusted away after about 2 years from new ( I will see if I can find photographs I took),  I then replaced them with brand new Honda discs and pads,  after less than 3 years rear discs again FUBAR, replaced them with Eicher discs and Brembo pads from Eurocarparts and they now seem to be OK,  certainly not rusting to anywhere near the same extent... maybe Honda discs are prone to rust ?  Problem with rear discs is they cop all the sh!t thrown up by front wheels and that can cause problems with calipers as well as discs, steel rims protect the rear brakes better than alloys. 

I posted some pictures of my wife's rear discs on this thread, link should open thread on correct page..

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10220.msg60882#msg60882
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 04:17:59 PM by culzean »
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gtd2000

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Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2019, 06:35:28 PM »
When you replace rear pads which also operate as the handbrake, don't touch the the handbrake until you have pumped the brake pedal several times to operate the adjusters within the calipers, seating the new pads onto the discs. Then you can try the handbrake and adjust the cable if necessary. It is a similar procedure with rear drums, there is an auto adjuster on each brake mechanism.

Also, you should never have to file the ears on the pads, I have never had to do this in 30+ years of replacing pads. The problem is normally caused by a build up of scale on the calipers, in particular under the shims on the Jazz. The shims must be removed and the scale should be cleaned off carefully with a scraper before reassembly and a thin smear of brake grease or copper grease applied to the bright surfaces. You must get back to the milled surface, you will find that the new pads and clean anti rattle shims will then fit in easily.

It might be that there was some corrosion under the shims that I did not see but the shims were certainly cleaned to a high standard. I'll certainly check that next time I work on the brakes.

I'd just assumed that the pads (cheap aftermarkets types) were just made to a lower tolerance?

They were only 10.80 delivered from eBay.

I know a few people that file the pads by default but I've rarely had to do this personally.

I now, thankfully, have the handbrake working exactly as it should, held the car, no problem, on a very steep junction.

gtd2000

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Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2019, 06:54:58 PM »
It's weird, because the old "02" plate never needed anything done to the brakes at all really during the 5 or 6 years of ownership.

The rear drums on our early model MK1's never gave a minutes trouble except to adjust the cable very occasionally,  my earlier Civic had rear drums that needed new shoes at 120,000 miles, the drums were perfect. The rear discs on later model Jazz are problematic, the front disc brakes should not give problems other than new pads needed occasionally and new discs every so often.  The Rear discs on my wifes MK2 were rusted away after about 2 years from new ( I will see if I can find photographs I took),  I then replaced them with brand new Honda discs and pads,  after less than 3 years rear discs again FUBAR, replaced them with Eicher discs and Brembo pads from Eurocarparts and they now seem to be OK,  certainly not rusting to anywhere near the same extent... maybe Honda discs are prone to rust ?  Problem with rear discs is they cop all the sh!t thrown up by front wheels and that can cause problems with calipers as well as discs, steel rims protect the rear brakes better than alloys. 

I posted some pictures of my wife's rear discs on this thread, link should open thread on correct page..

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10220.msg60882#msg60882

That disc certainly looks pretty crispy.

Forgot to mention above, that I ended up inserting a few washers to "take up the slack" of the handbrake cable, perhaps just a case of a stretched set of cables?

My dear old mum's KIA Picanto ate brakes for some strange reason, the brakes were fantastic, to the extent that KIA reverted to rear drums in the next revision of the model, due to complaints from customers almost going through the windscreen when pressing the pedal  :D

Her car had only done around 42,000 miles when it was sold but between 21,000 and 42,000 I fitted at least two complete sets of discs and pads. Her previous car, a '93 Mazda 121 "Bubble" never even had a brake pad changed, in well over 100,000 miles and 11 years ownership.

It must be that the quality of the components has dropped over the years? Then again, so has the price.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 06:56:40 PM by gtd2000 »

Jocko

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Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2019, 07:01:11 PM »
When I worked for TMS, we stocked two types of discs. The garages and the staff referred to the cheap, Chinese variety, as "the plastic ones". They always ordered the dearer ones unless the customer specified "just get cheap ones". A pair of the Chinese ones weighed only slightly more than the dear ones, which were sold as singles!

gtd2000

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Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2019, 07:19:27 PM »
When I worked for TMS, we stocked two types of discs. The garages and the staff referred to the cheap, Chinese variety, as "the plastic ones". They always ordered the dearer ones unless the customer specified "just get cheap ones". A pair of the Chinese ones weighed only slightly more than the dear ones, which were sold as singles!

I once bought a cheap pair of Brembo discs for my old Nissan 240SX in the USA - got them from Rock Auto for the cracking price of US$5!!! Made in italy as well.

I got the last set of Picanto discs from Amazon when they were closing down their car parts line. Think it was 14 a pair. Might still have a set in the shed somewhere too!

sparky Paul

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Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2019, 08:21:35 PM »
It might be that there was some corrosion under the shims that I did not see but the shims were certainly cleaned to a high standard. I'll certainly check that next time I work on the brakes.

I'd just assumed that the pads (cheap aftermarkets types) were just made to a lower tolerance?

They were only 10.80 delivered from eBay.

I know a few people that file the pads by default but I've rarely had to do this personally.

Not Omega branded pads by any chance? I tried these on the back calipers last year. I think they are Turkish, but seem to perform fine and the friction material looks decent quality - and no problems fitting.

You have to give them a good scrape to get the scale off back to the cast steel milled surface. Keep the scraper flat to the surface and work your way through it until it feels smooth, a bit of fine emery to clean up, and you'll never have to file a pad again.   ;)

The adjusters sort themselves out, but it's just a bit disconcerting to find that the handbrake has disappeared!
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 08:32:55 PM by sparky Paul »

sparky Paul

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Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2019, 08:24:20 PM »
I got the last set of Picanto discs from Amazon when they were closing down their car parts line.

I got a load of parts for the Terrano when they were flogging everything off, discs, pads, shoes, water pump, etc., all silly prices.

culzean

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Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2019, 09:44:58 AM »
The problem with any thicker metal punched out by a press ( and the steel backing of pads is pretty thick ) is that the edges are not parallel, so the sides if the 'ears' are tapered from front to back. I have found that a little bit removed when the pads are fitted will prevent any re-visiting at a later date to fix sticking calipers, which can either be caused by the slide pins getting tight ( easily avoidable if you check and re-lube the pins with something like TRW PFG110 ( rubber friendly brake grease, do not use petroleum based grease anywhere near rubber gaiters or seals as it makes them swell and disintegrate and make sure the rubber concertina gaiters are intact and fitted properly).  Only need a smear of brake grease on the pins,  be careful not to put too much on, if too much grease gets into the blind hole where the pins slide it can stop the pins sliding ( hydraulic lock, as the grease won't compress and cannot get back out past the pin very easily ).

The other thing that cause calipers to stick is if the ears are too tight in their slots,  and especially on Jazz rear discs they get rusty and swell up ( rust takes up more room than the steel it forms on ) and bind, before I started cleaning up the ears I had this happen a couple of times despite fitting new shims and cleaning out the slots. 

When the pads or pins stick the result is that the calipers do not equalise around the disc and that causes one pad to wear a lot more than the other, unfortunately that is normally the inside pad where the cylinder is mounted, so when you look at the pads the one you can see easily ( the outside one)  normally has plenty of material left,  the first warning you may get is when the squeal clip starts rubbing on the disc and makes an awful racket when you brake.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 10:10:53 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

gtd2000

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Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2019, 04:01:56 PM »
It might be that there was some corrosion under the shims that I did not see but the shims were certainly cleaned to a high standard. I'll certainly check that next time I work on the brakes.

I'd just assumed that the pads (cheap aftermarkets types) were just made to a lower tolerance?

They were only 10.80 delivered from eBay.

I know a few people that file the pads by default but I've rarely had to do this personally.

Not Omega branded pads by any chance? I tried these on the back calipers last year. I think they are Turkish, but seem to perform fine and the friction material looks decent quality - and no problems fitting.

You have to give them a good scrape to get the scale off back to the cast steel milled surface. Keep the scraper flat to the surface and work your way through it until it feels smooth, a bit of fine emery to clean up, and you'll never have to file a pad again.   ;)

The adjusters sort themselves out, but it's just a bit disconcerting to find that the handbrake has disappeared!
\
I believe they were Omega branded...

Yes indeed:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Fits-Honda-Jazz-MK2-1-2-Genuine-Omega-Rear-Brake-Pads-Set/292183163405?fits=Car+Make%3AHonda%7CModel%3AJazz&hash=item440779420d:g:ETcAAOSwt5hYgaBD:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true

Car passed the MOT "re-test" today. Didn't realise that they go through all of the advisories when you take it back to check the failed items? (failed on Handbrake and poor rear braking performance). Supposedly, this is a change in how the car is tested.

On Wednesday I'll give the front a service, weather permitting!

Handbrake seems to be working better than ever to be fair.

sparky Paul

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Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2019, 06:25:34 AM »
Car passed the MOT "re-test" today. Didn't realise that they go through all of the advisories when you take it back to check the failed items? (failed on Handbrake and poor rear braking performance). Supposedly, this is a change in how the car is tested.

They do check advisories on the retest. My MOT man has always asked if any of the advisories have been done, he knocks them off if they have been fixed.

gtd2000

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Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2019, 09:43:06 AM »


They do check advisories on the retest. My MOT man has always asked if any of the advisories have been done, he knocks them off if they have been fixed.
[/quote]

Weather permitting, I'll be going through the advisory list tomorrow afternoon but it's pretty miserable out there today.

Quote
Monitor and repair if necessary (advisories):
Nearside Front Service brake fluctuating, but not excessively (1.2.1 (e))
Offside Front Service brake fluctuating, but not excessively (1.2.1 (e))
Nearside Front Brake pipe corroded, covered in grease or other material (1.1.11 (c))
Offside Front Brake pipe corroded, covered in grease or other material (1.1.11 (c))
Offside Front Brake pipe corroded, covered in grease or other material to rear (1.1.11 (c))
Nearside Rear Brake pipe corroded, covered in grease or other material (1.1.11 (c))
Offside Rear Brake pipe corroded, covered in grease or other material (1.1.11 (c))
Offside Front Suspension arm pin or bush worn but not resulting in excessive movement (5.3.4 (a) (i))

First check will be the strip down and re-grease of the front brakes.

The brake pipes will get a clean up and re-grease

Then the bushing may well be one of these things that comes up each and every year because it no longer looks brand new? Think it's part of the wishbone, not sure if you get individual bushings to refit?

Jocko

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Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2019, 10:18:55 AM »
I got that last item 13,000 miles after fitting a brand new wishbone and its associated bushes. I'll see what happens this coming MOT, but I have had my tracking checked twice since getting the advisory, and though a drop link was found to be defective, nothing was said about the wishbone bush.

gtd2000

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Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2019, 03:43:13 PM »
I got that last item 13,000 miles after fitting a brand new wishbone and its associated bushes. I'll see what happens this coming MOT, but I have had my tracking checked twice since getting the advisory, and though a drop link was found to be defective, nothing was said about the wishbone bush.

Yeah, the old car had a similar advisory for every year the car was owned.

The current one is:

Offside Front Suspension arm pin or bush worn but not resulting in excessive movement (5.3.4 (a) (i))

The previous listing was:

Offside Front Suspension arm rubber bush deteriorated but not resulting in excessive movement rear bush (2.4.G.2)

Nearside Front Lower Suspension arm synthetic bush deteriorated but not resulting in excessive movement (2.4.G.2)

I'm fairly sure my KIA Ceed has the same thing.

gtd2000

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Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2019, 10:18:34 PM »
Well, I finally got the front brakes sorted out.

Both inner pads were jammed up and had to be knocked out but all looked well and plenty of meat on the pads.

Stripped everything down and filed the ears slightly, cleaned up all surfaces, checked slider pins for free movement etc.

Applied a smearing of coppaslip to the pads, shims and retaining bolts, also cleaned up and then brushed some coppaslip onto the exposed ends of the brake pipes.

Hopefully that's the brakes OK for at least another year.  ;)

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