Author Topic: Jazz discs and pads  (Read 2862 times)

desthemoaner

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Jazz discs and pads
« on: April 24, 2018, 11:11:18 PM »
 I bought my 13 plate ES in January. Mighty pleased with it so far, and those magic seats are...well, magic.

 However, despite the discs and pads being replaced (so it says on the bit of paper) last year by a Honda dealer under previous ownership, there's a scraping noise when the brakes are first applied. This noise diminishes but doesn't disappear completely after they get warm. A mobile mechanic of my acquaintance whom I've used many times and regard as trustworthy has had a look and tells me the brakes are fine, but the noise still bothers me. Probably not related to the above, but the back pads stick on the discs after the car has been parked overnight on the steep hill where we live, resulting in a "bang" as the car moves off. This is something I experienced last time we owned a car with rear discs and pads rather than drums, so maybe just a quirk of the set up.

 Anyhow, I intend to start afresh and replace discs and pads front and rear over the next 12 months or so, and was just wondering if someone could give me a brief outline of the procedures, or point out where on this site I can find relevant guidance.

Many thanks.

kevinivtec

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Re: Jazz discs and pads
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2018, 12:14:21 AM »
 hi just done my pads and discs on 2010 ex auto, reason was car had only done 15000 miles and had been idle for a while rusty discs I bought pagid discs front and rear plus pads,  first , before i go any further it is an easy job to do, the first problem is to take out the two cross heads screws that hold the discs in place if they have not been taken out before and put back with a little copa slip they can be a pig to remove, i used an impact screwdriver and a pin punch to remove them, remove the top and bottom calliper pins and the calliper will pull off letting you remove the pads, then remove the calliper bracket two bolts and the disc can be pulled off if it wont go  there are two 8mm threaded holes to jack it off, assembly is easy just make sure you grease the calliper pins with the correct grease NOT COPASLIP make sure the brake pad brackets are clean and when assembling the disc back on make sure the mating faces are dead clean put in new screwsx2 6mm bought on e bay the piston just pushes back (use a g clamp) the rears i found just a little more tricky as i had to disconnect the handbrake cable (just un hook it) and remove the small bolts holding it in place x3 as there is not enough room to pull of the calliper, the piston screws back clockwise best to get the tool  on e bay makes it easier or a piece of plate about two inches wide 3-4 mm thick to turn the piston, make sure you do not twist the boot seal good spray with w/d40 makes it all go easier  again grease the pad brackets with correct ht grease and apply a little copaslip on the back of the pads when assembling and of course keep and reuse the shims for the pads, thats basically how to do it but look it up on you tube  as well hope this gives you a basic idea and if you want to do it yourself!! also I sprayed the hub and edges of my discs with silver heat proof paint just stops the rust and makes it look good as well good luck!!

desthemoaner

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Re: Jazz discs and pads
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2018, 10:19:46 AM »
Many thanks for that excellent post.

I've done discs and pads on Fords several times, but never owned a Honda till now; so my concern was that there might be a fundamental difference in the disc/ pad setup. Sounds like its fairly simple, so I'll buy the tools and screws as suggested and get started when time and money allows.

Although I usually buy Mintex, I've used Pagid before and they make a perfectly acceptable substitute, as well as being slightly cheaper.   

Thanks again.

Edit: like your car, mine was very low mileage for its year so probably spent a lot of time standing around, and this might account for the scraping sounds. Additionally I've had to replace all the tyres with new Michelins, the originals having cracked in their sidewalls due to loss of suppleness through underuse.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 10:23:44 AM by desthemoaner »

Ed the Jazz

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Re: Jazz discs and pads
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2018, 11:07:18 PM »
Have owned my 2004 CVT Sport since 16mths old - always had the 'bang' from the rear discs when setting off after the car has been parked particularly in rain or the car has been washed and not driven immediately. Also they creak when passengers get in/out and the handbrake is applied - wet or dry. Recently had new discs and pads all round and still the same. In addition the brakes sound 'rough/catchy' until full warm. On roundabouts when on right hand lock get a 'swishing' noise until brakes have been used hard a few times. Am told my brakes are all ok and that I need to use them more and harder to polish the disc and to warm the pads so they don't glaze and are keener - I tend to slow down by lifting off the accelerator rather than hard use of the brakes. Was suggested to me that the Jazz is over braked with discs all round. Must admit when used hard for a while the brakes are very smooth and keen.

culzean

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Re: Jazz discs and pads
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2018, 08:13:57 AM »
Was suggested to me that the Jazz is over braked with discs all round. Must admit when used hard for a while the brakes are very smooth and keen.

The only advantage of discs is better cooling (and cheaper for makers and a bit easier to work on),  they do not have more stopping power than drums (in fact with discs you need a servo to assist stopping,  with drums they have a self-servo effect where when the shoes touch the drum they 'dig in' and apply more force,  drums are also better for handbrake.  Large trucks still use drum brakes,  which speaks volumes.   Rear discs are fitted more for show than efficiency and rear drums on other cars and Hondas that I have had have been trouble free for over 100,000 miles and then replace the shoes good for another 100K, and never had to replace a drum.  The rear discs on my wifes 2012 Si were replaced at 3 years due to very heavy corrosion (and I mean heavy,  like a ship that has been on sea bed since WW2. there were no shiny bits a all, just different shades of brown) - they look as thought they need replacing again but rather spending 120 on discs and 40 on pads from Honda again I have just bought Eicher discs and pads from Eurocarparts for 70 all in (no use fitting 'good quality OEM parts if they rust up so quickly).   

Have a look at attached PDF photo showing 3 years of rust on OEM discs.

You do need to brake hard every so often to stop brake pads and discs glazing from only light applications.  It is also quite common for pads to stick to discs when left in the wet with handbrake on (which never happened with drums),  If our driveway was flat I would leave car in gear with handbrake off.

The dragging sound you can hear is because unlike drums (which have springs to pull shoes away from drum) discs have no such thing and consequently pads are always rubbing on discs,  which creates drag and heat.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 08:36:43 AM by culzean »
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JazzyB

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Re: Jazz discs and pads
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2018, 10:28:27 AM »
Was suggested to me that the Jazz is over braked with discs all round. Must admit when used hard for a while the brakes are very smooth and keen.

The only advantage of discs is better cooling (and cheaper for makers and a bit easier to work on),  they do not have more stopping power than drums (in fact with discs you need a servo to assist stopping,  with drums they have a self-servo effect where when the shoes touch the drum they 'dig in' and apply more force,  drums are also better for handbrake.  Large trucks still use drum brakes,  which speaks volumes.   Rear discs are fitted more for show than efficiency and rear drums on other cars and Hondas that I have had have been trouble free for over 100,000 miles and then replace the shoes good for another 100K, and never had to replace a drum.  The rear discs on my wifes 2012 Si were replaced at 3 years due to very heavy corrosion (and I mean heavy,  like a ship that has been on sea bed since WW2. there were no shiny bits a all, just different shades of brown) - they look as thought they need replacing again but rather spending 120 on discs and 40 on pads from Honda again I have just bought Eicher discs and pads from Eurocarparts for 70 all in (no use fitting 'good quality OEM parts if they rust up so quickly).   

Have a look at attached PDF photo showing 3 years of rust on OEM discs.

You do need to brake hard every so often to stop brake pads and discs glazing from only light applications.  It is also quite common for pads to stick to discs when left in the wet with handbrake on (which never happened with drums),  If our driveway was flat I would leave car in gear with handbrake off.

The dragging sound you can hear is because unlike drums (which have springs to pull shoes away from drum) discs have no such thing and consequently pads are always rubbing on discs,  which creates drag and heat.

I think you will find that disc brakes are better than drums for stopping not the same!

I drive a lorry and it has disc brakes all round and stops on the button.

Jocko

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Re: Jazz discs and pads
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2018, 10:59:10 AM »
Disc brakes are far superior to drum brakes, hence they were introduced for motor racing in the 1950s. They do not fade anything like drum brakes do.
Regarding servo assist, servos are fitted to allow the use of harder pads which are longer wearing and more fade resistant. You can have a disc system with softer pad material and no servo, but virtually all manufacturers of modern cars opt for hard pads and servos.
Rear drum brakes are actually fitted to some cars to "keep costs down and reduce weight". I grant that drum systems make for a far superior handbrake. My SAAB had all round discs but also drum handbrake - on the front - which was a great system.

Hobo

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Re: Jazz discs and pads
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2018, 12:01:04 PM »
Disc brakes are far superior to drum brakes,

Agreed, I remember the days of drum brakes all round and when going down a steep hill you had to keep pumping the brakes to stop fading, also they could be lethal if the shoes got wet going through deep puddles or a ford.

culzean

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Re: Jazz discs and pads
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2018, 12:04:50 PM »
Some more sensible car makers still use rear drums, they do less than 20% of braking and are much better as a handbrake and a lot less maintenance (new shoes every 100,000 miles and new drums never needed) .   The drums shield the rear brakes from dirt and salty water, rear discs and calipers cop everything the front tyres throw up and then some, and frequently suffer problems and rust away far too quickly.

Pretty soon my wife's jazz will be on third set of discs and pads in six years and 60k, which IMHO is ludicrous, they haven't worn out, just rusted away.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Hobo

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Re: Jazz discs and pads
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2018, 12:14:47 PM »
Some car makers still use rear drums as they are cheaper,

Pretty soon my wife's jazz will be on third set of discs and pads in six years and 60k, which IMHO is ludicrous, they haven't worn out, just rusted away.

Fixed that for you, I don't know what your OH is doing to the discs but my old Civic which is now sixteen years old with 90K is still only on its second set of discs all round and they are in good condition, maybe because we don't use cheap gear.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 04:41:58 PM by Hobo »

Jocko

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Re: Jazz discs and pads
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2018, 02:05:45 PM »
I have only ever had to replace one set of discs in all my years motoring. That was on my Cavalier. At 137K the front ones were getting a bit thin. I have never ever experienced disc rusting. Mind you, this is my first Honda! My discs are currently shiny bright, with 103K on the clock. I have only done 16K with the car, but there was no mention of new discs being fitted among the comprehensive bills and receipts I got with the car.

culzean

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Re: Jazz discs and pads
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2018, 09:34:10 PM »
Some car makers still use rear drums as they are cheaper,

Pretty soon my wife's jazz will be on third set of discs and pads in six years and 60k, which IMHO is ludicrous, they haven't worn out, just rusted away.

Fixed that for you, I don't what your OH is doing to the discs but my old Civic which is now sixteen years old with 90K is still only its second set of discs all round and they are in good condition, maybe because we don't use cheap gear.

The discs on my Civic are fine as well - 75K and still on original discs and all bright and shiny,  seems to be a Jazz Si thing,  maybe the body kit directs all the water onto the rear discs.  I don't think she is doing anything wrong (I probably drive the Jazz as much as she does these days) but when the OEM parts rust away after a couple of years something is amiss (maybe they used some dodgy steel to try to make the disc handbrake grip better).  As I said I am fitting Eicher discs and Brembo pads, I already have them on hand ready to fit in case rust it is picked up at next MOT in July.
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madasafish

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Re: Jazz discs and pads
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2018, 05:26:26 AM »
I had a 1946 Rover 16 with rod operated drum brakes. They were very efficient and stopped the car evenly. But on some Highland roads - (Fettercairn) there are mile long descents with very steep parts and some very sharp bends. I remember going down with the front brakes red hot (literally), the smell of hot asbestos, smoke pouring from the drums,the handbrake fully on, the car in second gear with the Freewheel locked and wondering whether we would stop in time. We did.

Never had that with disks.

My rear disks have done 30k miles in six years. Nice and bright and shiny. We have lots of steep hills here, the brake pivot points are properly serviced and I don't park the car having washed it - I drive it 20-30 meters with brakes hard on in reverse to clean the rear disks of water..

Jocko

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Re: Jazz discs and pads
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2018, 09:25:52 AM »
I was brought up on drum brakes. I can remember when cars had an oval sticker on the rear (red and black diagonal stripes if I remember correctly) which said "Servo Assisted Discs", just to stop us "drummers" from running up their ar5e.

culzean

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Re: Jazz discs and pads
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2018, 10:29:28 AM »
I had a 1946 Rover 16 with rod operated drum brakes. They were very efficient and stopped the car evenly. But on some Highland roads - (Fettercairn) there are mile long descents with very steep parts and some very sharp bends. I remember going down with the front brakes red hot (literally), the smell of hot asbestos, smoke pouring from the drums,the handbrake fully on, the car in second gear with the Freewheel locked and wondering whether we would stop in time. We did.

Never had that with disks.

My rear disks have done 30k miles in six years. Nice and bright and shiny. We have lots of steep hills here, the brake pivot points are properly serviced and I don't park the car having washed it - I drive it 20-30 meters with brakes hard on in reverse to clean the rear disks of water..

As I said discs are cooled better than drums,  but if you ever had a servo fail on discs or just let the servo chamber empty of its stored vacuum by pumping the brakes without engine running you will quickly realise that you can press the brake pedal until your face goes blue and your eyes pop out and those brakes are firmly in chocolate teapot territory - I was not advocating discs on front (front brakes supply over 80% of braking effort) but rear discs are just not required on family cars as the main purpose of rear brakes is for a handbrake,  and for the rears drums are longer lasting and much lower maintenance, in fact the average car owner would need to reach 100K before even worrying about rear brakes - rear discs and calipers  seem to deteriorate whether they are used or not,  in fact the less they are used the more they seem to suffer.   Something about my wifes Jazz Si seems to be directing all the sh!t in the world onto back brakes,  and for the worst 6 months of the year they are inside steel wheels which should protect them better than alloys,  I don't know what they would be like if alloys were on all year round. probably become a yearly change item.

http://autoweek.com/article/technology/electric-brakes-are-coming-to-your-car

Brakes are just about to get a whole lot more complicated - if the electric handbrakes on some cars friends have owned are anything to go by they will need to go into workshop 3 or 4 times a year for service.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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