Failed to start... again

[FMIB]

Prpblem with lithium  batteries is limitation on number of charge cycles  and deep discharges tend to lower capacity.

Lead Acid batteries ok for huge  current draw of starting a cold engine with a cold battery. Cold LI batteries not so good.(EVs have sometimes batter heating for winter use)

This disagrees with your comment
https://www.super-b.com/en/lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries/lithium-vs-lead-acid-batteries

[mitchelln]

Lithium batteries cannot be charged below zero degrees. I will instantly kill them. So I guess the reason lead acids persist might be so you'll have ICE starter 12V power if the lithium is low and cannot be charged due to low temperature. Once the engine is started then I expect there is an ICE based method to warm the lithium battery up so it can then be charged.

Full electric cars have heaters in their lithium batteries ans they have the capacity to do it, but perhaps the small one in the hydrid doesn't.

[Jazzik]

This disagrees with your comment
https://www.super-b.com/en/lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries/lithium-vs-lead-acid-batteries

Who would expect a lithium battery producer to agree, even when its Dutch (like me): Koolen Industries.

[Kremmen]

 

Reminds me of a similar us v them.

The paper towel industry reckon they are more hygienic than hand air dryers but the air dryer industry reckon they are more hygienic than paper towels.

[John Ratsey]

Lithium batteries cannot be charged below zero degrees. I will instantly kill them. So I guess the reason lead acids persist might be so you'll have ICE starter 12V power if the lithium is low and cannot be charged due to low temperature. Once the engine is started then I expect there is an ICE based method to warm the lithium battery up so it can then be charged.

Full electric cars have heaters in their lithium batteries ans they have the capacity to do it, but perhaps the small one in the hydrid doesn't.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a heater in the eHEV battery and it's also likely that there's a limit on the charging rate at sub-zero temperatures as Honda are selling these vehicles to be used in climates colder than UK. However, very cold weather causes a noticeable drop in overall efficiency which I had attributed to the engine running to provide  cabin heat and keep itself warm but an HV battery unable to operate with its normal efficiency will add to the overall inefficiency.

[5thcivic]

There is no alternator on the Jazz, the HV battery having enough power for the electric motor, has huge power for a dc to dcv converter to top up the 12V which only needs some amps in comparison to drive the electronics and lights, and the software looks at many parameters to decide when to fire up the ICE to top up the HV. The only problem is owners like me who only use the car occasionally and mostly for short trips, then the 12V may not be charged enough for a week or two on alarm in the garage. Thus a smart charger is useful. A reasonable commuter should be fine with normal driving charging.

[FMIB]

Lithium batteries cannot be charged below zero degrees. I will instantly kill them. So I guess the reason lead acids persist might be so you'll have ICE starter 12V power if the lithium is low and cannot be charged due to low temperature. Once the engine is started then I expect there is an ICE based method to warm the lithium battery up so it can then be charged.

Full electric cars have heaters in their lithium batteries ans they have the capacity to do it, but perhaps the small one in the hydrid doesn't.

I don't think this is true. Ev's have lithium batteries, do charge below zero and their batteries are not being killed at sub zero charging. I owned one for a year, through a winter and have experience.
True charge speed is slower but many EV's now have improved battery management so that the battery can be preheated during the charging cycle to reduce charge times or en-route, prior to charging.

[FMIB]

There is no alternator on the Jazz, the HV battery having enough power for the electric motor, has huge power for a dc to dcv converter to top up the 12V which only needs some amps in comparison to drive the electronics and lights, and the software looks at many parameters to decide when to fire up the ICE to top up the HV. The only problem is owners like me who only use the car occasionally and mostly for short trips, then the 12V may not be charged enough for a week or two on alarm in the garage. Thus a smart charger is useful. A reasonable commuter should be fine with normal driving charging.

Thanks for confirming. Would not make much sense to power both a generator to charge the EV battery and a separate alternator to charge the 12V battery. It would compromise the efficiency and hence emissions.

[5thcivic]

As I understand it my E has water cooling and heating on the HV battery for the extremes of temperature. For this reason it is recommened to have it plugged in for preheating in winter, the charge will be used to warm the HV battery. Older electrics did not have cooling systems (even some cheaper new ones) and the HV batteries are very likely not to last as long.

[Jocko]

A Lithium Ion battery can be charged down to -20C provided the charging circuit is designed to do so. This overcomes the problem of Lithium Plating.

[Wilmo]

Bet none of this is explained by the sales staff in the dealership when you go to buy your EV or Hybrid.

Can see breakdown services being busy if we have a really cold winter.

[mitchelln]

There is no alternator on the Jazz, the HV battery having enough power for the electric motor, has huge power for a dc to dcv converter to top up the 12V which only needs some amps in comparison to drive the electronics and lights, and the software looks at many parameters to decide when to fire up the ICE to top up the HV. The only problem is owners like me who only use the car occasionally and mostly for short trips, then the 12V may not be charged enough for a week or two on alarm in the garage. Thus a smart charger is useful. A reasonable commuter should be fine with normal driving charging.

Thanks for confirming. Would not make much sense to power both a generator to charge the EV battery and a separate alternator to charge the 12V battery. It would compromise the efficiency and hence emissions.

No, when not plugged in the EV's BMS pre-heats the battery before charging if it's too cold and also keeps it above zero overnight. Otherwise it cold gates. Check out Byorn Nyland's YouTube channel. He tests this kind of thing and got into real trouble a couple of times by running the battery down to zero on the cars he's testing in very cold weather and then it doesn't have enough juice to warm itself to charge. You then have to plug-in for quite a while for the car's battery heating system to warm up the battery. This guy is in Norway and tests in pretty extreme cold.
EV's consume a surprising percentage of the battery overnight in very cold weather to keep the battery warm enough to charge. The batteries are also much less efficient at low temps.

[Lord Voltermore]

I think the jazz has the most basic form of Battery temperature control.  It doesnt mess about with expensive and heavy  heating and cooling elements.   It simply draws  air by fan  from the passenger cabin.    Its assumed that humans will not be able to tolerate  air that is extremely hot or cold  for long and will take steps to regulate cabin temperature to something more suitable for human, and battery, survival.  I  suspect occupants would die of heat exhaustion or hypothermia before the battery does .

The battery may be close to its limits  for a while if  starting in an arctic winter, or sahara summer  until the   cabin heats up or cools down a bit , . But Honda, and some other manufacturers  seem to regard the system as adequate for a hybrid battery.   If I was an Inuit or Bedouin I might think twice about a Jazz anyway.

FMIB  and others.  Are you aware that the car must be driven for at least 30 minutes  every 3 months to ensure the HV battery remains in good condition.     Its not enough  just to top up its charge bars by running the engine on the driveway every so often.   It needs to be driven so it passes through a number of discharge and recharge cycles.  If its left too long the extremely expensive HV battery can be permanently damaged, a much more serious problem than the 12v battery.  . 

New owners would do well to watch the following Video  , which is a 'handover' guide made by a honda dealership.  Lots of useful stuff .      It briefly mentions the need for driving every 3 months, but dismisses this possibility of not driving for 3 months  as unlikely.     Well for some its  not.   Some people winter abroad, get ill etc.  I once left mine for  8 weeks.  Holiday not ill  (my days of a holiday that makes you ill are mostly over) 

 

[Lord Voltermore]

   If I was an Inuit or Bedouin I might think twice about a Jazz anyway.

Sorry to digress from serious  Jazz stuff.  Thinking about it I am not so far from this. My DNA is 4% Finnish ,who know a thing or two about cold  (probably timber traders  meeting lowland scots lassies)  . And about 1% Berber.   This came as a surprise as I have blue eyes.      But on research I  found that Saharan Berbers actually descend  from Norsemen and often have blue eyes.   .  (possibly North african  Roman  troops on Hadrians wall, or maybe barbary pirates who captured female hostages.  -many barbary pirate captains were actually english)   Anyone looking for a new Hobby I can highly recommend  getting an ancestry type DNA test done.  The gateway to lots of fascinating research. Now back to the Jazz   

[FMIB]

There is no alternator on the Jazz, the HV battery having enough power for the electric motor, has huge power for a dc to dcv converter to top up the 12V which only needs some amps in comparison to drive the electronics and lights, and the software looks at many parameters to decide when to fire up the ICE to top up the HV. The only problem is owners like me who only use the car occasionally and mostly for short trips, then the 12V may not be charged enough for a week or two on alarm in the garage. Thus a smart charger is useful. A reasonable commuter should be fine with normal driving charging.

Thanks for confirming. Would not make much sense to power both a generator to charge the EV battery and a separate alternator to charge the 12V battery. It would compromise the efficiency and hence emissions.

No, when not plugged in the EV's BMS pre-heats the battery before charging if it's too cold and also keeps it warm enough overnight. Otherwise it cold gates. Check out Byorn Nyland's YouTube channel. He tests this kind of thing and got into real trouble a couple of time by running the battery down to zero in very cold weather and then it doesn't have enough juice to warm itself to charge. You then have to plug-in for quite a while for the car's battery heating system to warm up the battery. This guy is in Norway and tests in pretty extreme cold.
EV's consume a surprising percentage of the battery overnight in very cold weather to keep the battery warm enough to charge.

Sorry, I don't have that experience.
Not all EV's battery management systems are cable of preheating, some recent cars have had software updates to allow this.
I am unaware of any that are regulating the battery temperature when unplugged and stationary overnight. The Honda E has battery heating and cooling, but I saw no evidence of it warming the battery overnight, unplugged, it's battery charge did not drop when left overnight or even over several nights during very cold nights. It clearly heats the battery during the first couple of miles of driving in the winter shown by the super fast drop in battery percentage and dismal efficiency. (another thing dealers don't tell you, very poor efficiency at low and high ambient temps)
It can be preconditioned prior to driving, unplugged or plugged in, but this is set via the app or from the car. It heats the interior, defrosts, warms the battery etc and loses min 5% of its charge in around 10 mins in my experience.
My understanding of lithium batteries is that if they are discharged below a certain level, then charging is difficult or impossible. This is why all EV's have a "useable" battery capacity, to ensure even at zero charge, there is still a charge in the battery that you can't access. For the Honda E, it has a 35KW/h battery, but useable is around 29KW/h. I expect this "spare capacity" can be accessed by Honda at the end of the battery warranty period, if necessary to keep the battery within the warranty specification guarantee.