Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums

Honda Jazz, HR-V & Hybrid Forums => Honda Jazz Mk1 2002-2008 => Topic started by: gtd2000 on June 03, 2018, 03:40:49 PM

Title: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: gtd2000 on June 03, 2018, 03:40:49 PM
The handbrake on the car is pretty pathetic to be fair, always need to leave it in gear and won't hold on anything but the slightest of gradients. Still put the car in 1st gear anyway.

Managed to pass the MoT earlier this year without any advisory comments as well. The test requirement must be pretty low?

Thought I'd have a look at the back brakes yesterday with a view to adjusting the handbrake.

Got the rear wheels off and on both sides the pads were not moving (AT ALL) in the slides. Caliper slides were nice and fluid and the piston rotated freely enough for me to be happy with them but did a bit of a clean up and re-assembled.

Had to knock out the pads, then file off a small amount of metal to allow them to slip in and have some actual movement in the sliders.

If the rain stops, I'll be back out this afternoon or evening to remove the centre console and get that handbrake cable adjusted.

Our old '02, with the drum brakes, never had any issues at all with the handbrake...hmm.

Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: culzean on June 03, 2018, 04:06:52 PM
The handbrake on the car is pretty pathetic to be fair, always need to leave it in gear and won't hold on anything but the slightest of gradients. Still put the car in 1st gear anyway.

Managed to pass the MoT earlier this year without any advisory comments as well. The test requirement must be pretty low?

Thought I'd have a look at the back brakes yesterday with a view to adjusting the handbrake.

Got the rear wheels off and on both sides the pads were not moving (AT ALL) in the slides. Caliper slides were nice and fluid and the piston rotated freely enough for me to be happy with them but did a bit of a clean up and re-assembled.

Had to knock out the pads, then file off a small amount of metal to allow them to slip in and have some actual movement in the sliders.

If the rain stops, I'll be back out this afternoon or evening to remove the centre console and get that handbrake cable adjusted.

Our old '02, with the drum brakes, never had any issues at all with the handbrake...hmm.

The pad 'ears' are always tight in their slots,  I file them when I get new pads to make sure they have a bit of clearance (at least a mm to prevent future corrosion causing binding ).

I have never had a problem with rear drums either,  except to maybe replace the shoes at around 100,000 miles. Never had insides of drums go rusty, never had shoes stick to drums - hmmmm just about covers it,  whos barmy idea was it to fit rear discs to small cars  :-X
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: Jocko on June 03, 2018, 05:20:59 PM
The handbrake on the car is pretty pathetic to be fair, always need to leave it in gear and won't hold on anything but the slightest of gradients.
The dealer who sold me my Jazz was an ex Honda mechanic. He warned me about the handbrake on the Jazz and told me to apply and hold the footbrake as I apply the handbrake. I always do that, and I have not come across a hill, however steep, where the handbrake won't hold. Probably what the MOT tester did. I still leave the car in gear every time I park. A habit of a lifetime.
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: Jocko on June 06, 2018, 02:29:59 PM
Just had my MOT today and my handbrake passed, no problem. Pass value is 16% and it was 26% (50% is a footbrake pass).
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: taffy467 on August 09, 2018, 03:32:04 PM
Thanks Jocko, Just tried this and now handbrake Works. Was about to take it into the garage. No need.
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: smilertoo on August 10, 2018, 04:03:22 PM
bah this bloody car is a money pit, got a screw removed from tyre this morning and was told rear discs/pads are corroded and will probably fail next MOT. took it to a steep hill to test handbrake as described in this thread and the car does indeed roll back  :(
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: Izzy on August 13, 2018, 09:43:54 PM
My car (1.4 SE cvt) tries to creep forward with the handbrake on so I usually press the footbrake then apply the handbrake usually does the job, but reading this post I think I will check the pads and clean the pad location lugs and sliders in time for winter.
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: smilertoo on August 14, 2018, 11:28:13 AM
Just got rear discs and pads changed...and the car still rolls back on the steep hill i test it on; it must be the cable that's faulty.
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: VicW on August 14, 2018, 03:51:37 PM
I have read several adverse comments on here about the inefficiency of the Jazz handbrake. I am on my fifth Jazz all of which have had satisfactory handbrakes that would hold on quite steep slopes. They do require a strong pull though.

Vic.
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: Jocko on August 14, 2018, 04:05:58 PM
I have only had this one Jazz but the handbrake has been great. The car has done over 105,000 miles and in the last 2 years has required no brake maintenance, other than cleaning and greasing a couple of brake pipes.
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: smilertoo on August 17, 2018, 01:21:17 PM
Do you park in gear on hills?
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: Jocko on August 17, 2018, 01:40:29 PM
I never leave the car without putting it in gear. Even in my garage.
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: sparky Paul on August 17, 2018, 01:52:43 PM
My car (1.4 SE cvt) tries to creep forward with the handbrake on so I usually press the footbrake then apply the handbrake usually does the job, but reading this post I think I will check the pads and clean the pad location lugs and sliders in time for winter.

Make sure you remove the pad tab anti rattle shims and clean the areas under them scrupulously use a flat scraper and a wire brush to remove the corrosion which builds up. Don't be afraid to scrape, you need to get back to clean metal. Clean and refit the shims, a smear of brake or copper grease, and the pads will slide in easy.

Another thing to check on these rear disc handbrakes with the internal auto adjusters is to make sure that the lever on the caliper returns freely and fully when released. If they don't, this could indicate that the adjuster mechanism or caliper piston seizing, and this in turn can interfere with the auto adjuster, reducing the handbrake's effectiveness.

I park on a steep hill when I go to my parent's and I don't have a problem, but the Jazz handbrake is not the best. As Jocko says, push the brake pedal as you pull on the handbrake and it should hold anywhere. I always leave any manual car in gear when parked, but the Jazz handbrake should hold.
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: gtd2000 on October 17, 2018, 10:05:56 PM
Well I'm going to be having another go at the handbrake again this week, possibly on Friday if the weather is OK.

Curiously, I always have my foot on the brake when parking the car and applying the handbrake - there's not really any other way to do it smoothly, if you are parking on an incline, surely?

I also need to replace the driver side drop link - hell of a clunking when driving on uneven road surfaces and that's probably about 80% of the roads in South East Scotland!!!  :o

Also need to have another look at the boot as I think water is still getting in - the 2002 Jazz was fixed first time!

Great little cars these Honda's :D

Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: gtd2000 on March 02, 2019, 12:37:24 PM
Well, guess what I've been doing this week...... ;D

Yup, car went in for the MoT and failed on the back brakes and handbrake!

So I stripped the back brakes down yesterday after the pads took almost a week to arrive via eBay, usually takes two or three days at best in my experience.

MoT said the pads had less than 1.5mm of linings remaining, 3 of the pads were at least 5mm and one might have been 3mm...but I digress.

They were not moving freely so a full strip down and re-greasing everything plus the obligatory filing down of the "ears" on the new set, to get the buggers in!

Once fully assembled, I tried the hand-brake...not much resistance but I decided to have a cup of coffee and pick up the lad after school.

I've been back out this morning and removed the centre console, checked the cables and that everything was moving correctly. All looks A-OK.

Tried the handbrake and virtually non-existent... MoT re-test is Monday afternoon...hmm.

So I fully slackened off the adjusting nut and pulled the handbrake way up. Shock horror the brakes actually came on!

I've been slowly increasing the tension and it seems the handbrake is now working properly but I think I need to add washers to get it exactly where it needs to be.

Is the correct procedure to slacken off the handbrake then pump the brakes multiple time with the foot pedal, then adjust the cable, or, is that just a coincidence?

Some time next week, assuming the brakes pass the re-test I'm going to go a service on the front brakes.

It's weird, because the old "02" plate never needed anything done to the brakes at all really during the 5 or 6 years of ownership.



Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: sparky Paul on March 02, 2019, 01:41:13 PM
When you replace rear pads which also operate as the handbrake, don't touch the the handbrake until you have pumped the brake pedal several times to operate the adjusters within the calipers, seating the new pads onto the discs. Then you can try the handbrake and adjust the cable if necessary. It is a similar procedure with rear drums, there is an auto adjuster on each brake mechanism.

Also, you should never have to file the ears on the pads, I have never had to do this in 30+ years of replacing pads. The problem is normally caused by a build up of scale on the calipers, in particular under the shims on the Jazz. The shims must be removed and the scale should be cleaned off carefully with a scraper before reassembly and a thin smear of brake grease or copper grease applied to the bright surfaces. You must get back to the milled surface, you will find that the new pads and clean anti rattle shims will then fit in easily.
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: culzean on March 02, 2019, 03:06:51 PM
It's weird, because the old "02" plate never needed anything done to the brakes at all really during the 5 or 6 years of ownership.

The rear drums on our early model MK1's never gave a minutes trouble except to adjust the cable very occasionally,  my earlier Civic had rear drums that needed new shoes at 120,000 miles, the drums were perfect. The rear discs on later model Jazz are problematic, the front disc brakes should not give problems other than new pads needed occasionally and new discs every so often.  The Rear discs on my wifes MK2 were rusted away after about 2 years from new ( I will see if I can find photographs I took),  I then replaced them with brand new Honda discs and pads,  after less than 3 years rear discs again FUBAR, replaced them with Eicher discs and Brembo pads from Eurocarparts and they now seem to be OK,  certainly not rusting to anywhere near the same extent... maybe Honda discs are prone to rust ?  Problem with rear discs is they cop all the sh!t thrown up by front wheels and that can cause problems with calipers as well as discs, steel rims protect the rear brakes better than alloys. 

I posted some pictures of my wife's rear discs on this thread, link should open thread on correct page..

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10220.msg60882#msg60882
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: gtd2000 on March 02, 2019, 06:35:28 PM
When you replace rear pads which also operate as the handbrake, don't touch the the handbrake until you have pumped the brake pedal several times to operate the adjusters within the calipers, seating the new pads onto the discs. Then you can try the handbrake and adjust the cable if necessary. It is a similar procedure with rear drums, there is an auto adjuster on each brake mechanism.

Also, you should never have to file the ears on the pads, I have never had to do this in 30+ years of replacing pads. The problem is normally caused by a build up of scale on the calipers, in particular under the shims on the Jazz. The shims must be removed and the scale should be cleaned off carefully with a scraper before reassembly and a thin smear of brake grease or copper grease applied to the bright surfaces. You must get back to the milled surface, you will find that the new pads and clean anti rattle shims will then fit in easily.

It might be that there was some corrosion under the shims that I did not see but the shims were certainly cleaned to a high standard. I'll certainly check that next time I work on the brakes.

I'd just assumed that the pads (cheap aftermarkets types) were just made to a lower tolerance?

They were only 10.80 delivered from eBay.

I know a few people that file the pads by default but I've rarely had to do this personally.

I now, thankfully, have the handbrake working exactly as it should, held the car, no problem, on a very steep junction.
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: gtd2000 on March 02, 2019, 06:54:58 PM
It's weird, because the old "02" plate never needed anything done to the brakes at all really during the 5 or 6 years of ownership.

The rear drums on our early model MK1's never gave a minutes trouble except to adjust the cable very occasionally,  my earlier Civic had rear drums that needed new shoes at 120,000 miles, the drums were perfect. The rear discs on later model Jazz are problematic, the front disc brakes should not give problems other than new pads needed occasionally and new discs every so often.  The Rear discs on my wifes MK2 were rusted away after about 2 years from new ( I will see if I can find photographs I took),  I then replaced them with brand new Honda discs and pads,  after less than 3 years rear discs again FUBAR, replaced them with Eicher discs and Brembo pads from Eurocarparts and they now seem to be OK,  certainly not rusting to anywhere near the same extent... maybe Honda discs are prone to rust ?  Problem with rear discs is they cop all the sh!t thrown up by front wheels and that can cause problems with calipers as well as discs, steel rims protect the rear brakes better than alloys. 

I posted some pictures of my wife's rear discs on this thread, link should open thread on correct page..

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10220.msg60882#msg60882

That disc certainly looks pretty crispy.

Forgot to mention above, that I ended up inserting a few washers to "take up the slack" of the handbrake cable, perhaps just a case of a stretched set of cables?

My dear old mum's KIA Picanto ate brakes for some strange reason, the brakes were fantastic, to the extent that KIA reverted to rear drums in the next revision of the model, due to complaints from customers almost going through the windscreen when pressing the pedal  :D

Her car had only done around 42,000 miles when it was sold but between 21,000 and 42,000 I fitted at least two complete sets of discs and pads. Her previous car, a '93 Mazda 121 "Bubble" never even had a brake pad changed, in well over 100,000 miles and 11 years ownership.

It must be that the quality of the components has dropped over the years? Then again, so has the price.
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: Jocko on March 02, 2019, 07:01:11 PM
When I worked for TMS, we stocked two types of discs. The garages and the staff referred to the cheap, Chinese variety, as "the plastic ones". They always ordered the dearer ones unless the customer specified "just get cheap ones". A pair of the Chinese ones weighed only slightly more than the dear ones, which were sold as singles!
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: gtd2000 on March 02, 2019, 07:19:27 PM
When I worked for TMS, we stocked two types of discs. The garages and the staff referred to the cheap, Chinese variety, as "the plastic ones". They always ordered the dearer ones unless the customer specified "just get cheap ones". A pair of the Chinese ones weighed only slightly more than the dear ones, which were sold as singles!

I once bought a cheap pair of Brembo discs for my old Nissan 240SX in the USA - got them from Rock Auto for the cracking price of US$5!!! Made in italy as well.

I got the last set of Picanto discs from Amazon when they were closing down their car parts line. Think it was 14 a pair. Might still have a set in the shed somewhere too!
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: sparky Paul on March 02, 2019, 08:21:35 PM
It might be that there was some corrosion under the shims that I did not see but the shims were certainly cleaned to a high standard. I'll certainly check that next time I work on the brakes.

I'd just assumed that the pads (cheap aftermarkets types) were just made to a lower tolerance?

They were only 10.80 delivered from eBay.

I know a few people that file the pads by default but I've rarely had to do this personally.

Not Omega branded pads by any chance? I tried these on the back calipers last year. I think they are Turkish, but seem to perform fine and the friction material looks decent quality - and no problems fitting.

You have to give them a good scrape to get the scale off back to the cast steel milled surface. Keep the scraper flat to the surface and work your way through it until it feels smooth, a bit of fine emery to clean up, and you'll never have to file a pad again.   ;)

The adjusters sort themselves out, but it's just a bit disconcerting to find that the handbrake has disappeared!
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: sparky Paul on March 02, 2019, 08:24:20 PM
I got the last set of Picanto discs from Amazon when they were closing down their car parts line.

I got a load of parts for the Terrano when they were flogging everything off, discs, pads, shoes, water pump, etc., all silly prices.
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: culzean on March 03, 2019, 09:44:58 AM
The problem with any thicker metal punched out by a press ( and the steel backing of pads is pretty thick ) is that the edges are not parallel, so the sides if the 'ears' are tapered from front to back. I have found that a little bit removed when the pads are fitted will prevent any re-visiting at a later date to fix sticking calipers, which can either be caused by the slide pins getting tight ( easily avoidable if you check and re-lube the pins with something like TRW PFG110 ( rubber friendly brake grease, do not use petroleum based grease anywhere near rubber gaiters or seals as it makes them swell and disintegrate and make sure the rubber concertina gaiters are intact and fitted properly).  Only need a smear of brake grease on the pins,  be careful not to put too much on, if too much grease gets into the blind hole where the pins slide it can stop the pins sliding ( hydraulic lock, as the grease won't compress and cannot get back out past the pin very easily ).

The other thing that cause calipers to stick is if the ears are too tight in their slots,  and especially on Jazz rear discs they get rusty and swell up ( rust takes up more room than the steel it forms on ) and bind, before I started cleaning up the ears I had this happen a couple of times despite fitting new shims and cleaning out the slots. 

When the pads or pins stick the result is that the calipers do not equalise around the disc and that causes one pad to wear a lot more than the other, unfortunately that is normally the inside pad where the cylinder is mounted, so when you look at the pads the one you can see easily ( the outside one)  normally has plenty of material left,  the first warning you may get is when the squeal clip starts rubbing on the disc and makes an awful racket when you brake.
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: gtd2000 on March 04, 2019, 04:01:56 PM
It might be that there was some corrosion under the shims that I did not see but the shims were certainly cleaned to a high standard. I'll certainly check that next time I work on the brakes.

I'd just assumed that the pads (cheap aftermarkets types) were just made to a lower tolerance?

They were only 10.80 delivered from eBay.

I know a few people that file the pads by default but I've rarely had to do this personally.

Not Omega branded pads by any chance? I tried these on the back calipers last year. I think they are Turkish, but seem to perform fine and the friction material looks decent quality - and no problems fitting.

You have to give them a good scrape to get the scale off back to the cast steel milled surface. Keep the scraper flat to the surface and work your way through it until it feels smooth, a bit of fine emery to clean up, and you'll never have to file a pad again.   ;)

The adjusters sort themselves out, but it's just a bit disconcerting to find that the handbrake has disappeared!
\
I believe they were Omega branded...

Yes indeed:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Fits-Honda-Jazz-MK2-1-2-Genuine-Omega-Rear-Brake-Pads-Set/292183163405?fits=Car+Make%3AHonda%7CModel%3AJazz&hash=item440779420d:g:ETcAAOSwt5hYgaBD:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true

Car passed the MOT "re-test" today. Didn't realise that they go through all of the advisories when you take it back to check the failed items? (failed on Handbrake and poor rear braking performance). Supposedly, this is a change in how the car is tested.

On Wednesday I'll give the front a service, weather permitting!

Handbrake seems to be working better than ever to be fair.
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: sparky Paul on March 05, 2019, 06:25:34 AM
Car passed the MOT "re-test" today. Didn't realise that they go through all of the advisories when you take it back to check the failed items? (failed on Handbrake and poor rear braking performance). Supposedly, this is a change in how the car is tested.

They do check advisories on the retest. My MOT man has always asked if any of the advisories have been done, he knocks them off if they have been fixed.
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: gtd2000 on March 05, 2019, 09:43:06 AM


They do check advisories on the retest. My MOT man has always asked if any of the advisories have been done, he knocks them off if they have been fixed.
[/quote]

Weather permitting, I'll be going through the advisory list tomorrow afternoon but it's pretty miserable out there today.

Quote
Monitor and repair if necessary (advisories):
Nearside Front Service brake fluctuating, but not excessively (1.2.1 (e))
Offside Front Service brake fluctuating, but not excessively (1.2.1 (e))
Nearside Front Brake pipe corroded, covered in grease or other material (1.1.11 (c))
Offside Front Brake pipe corroded, covered in grease or other material (1.1.11 (c))
Offside Front Brake pipe corroded, covered in grease or other material to rear (1.1.11 (c))
Nearside Rear Brake pipe corroded, covered in grease or other material (1.1.11 (c))
Offside Rear Brake pipe corroded, covered in grease or other material (1.1.11 (c))
Offside Front Suspension arm pin or bush worn but not resulting in excessive movement (5.3.4 (a) (i))

First check will be the strip down and re-grease of the front brakes.

The brake pipes will get a clean up and re-grease

Then the bushing may well be one of these things that comes up each and every year because it no longer looks brand new? Think it's part of the wishbone, not sure if you get individual bushings to refit?
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: Jocko on March 05, 2019, 10:18:55 AM
I got that last item 13,000 miles after fitting a brand new wishbone and its associated bushes. I'll see what happens this coming MOT, but I have had my tracking checked twice since getting the advisory, and though a drop link was found to be defective, nothing was said about the wishbone bush.
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: gtd2000 on March 05, 2019, 03:43:13 PM
I got that last item 13,000 miles after fitting a brand new wishbone and its associated bushes. I'll see what happens this coming MOT, but I have had my tracking checked twice since getting the advisory, and though a drop link was found to be defective, nothing was said about the wishbone bush.

Yeah, the old car had a similar advisory for every year the car was owned.

The current one is:

Offside Front Suspension arm pin or bush worn but not resulting in excessive movement (5.3.4 (a) (i))

The previous listing was:

Offside Front Suspension arm rubber bush deteriorated but not resulting in excessive movement rear bush (2.4.G.2)

Nearside Front Lower Suspension arm synthetic bush deteriorated but not resulting in excessive movement (2.4.G.2)

I'm fairly sure my KIA Ceed has the same thing.
Title: Re: Back Brake & Handbrake on 2007 1.4SE.
Post by: gtd2000 on March 13, 2019, 10:18:34 PM
Well, I finally got the front brakes sorted out.

Both inner pads were jammed up and had to be knocked out but all looked well and plenty of meat on the pads.

Stripped everything down and filed the ears slightly, cleaned up all surfaces, checked slider pins for free movement etc.

Applied a smearing of coppaslip to the pads, shims and retaining bolts, also cleaned up and then brushed some coppaslip onto the exposed ends of the brake pipes.

Hopefully that's the brakes OK for at least another year.  ;)