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Honda Jazz, HR-V & Hybrid Forums => Honda Jazz Mk3 2015 - 2020 => Topic started by: hndjaz2016 on May 07, 2016, 09:20:59 PM

Title: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: hndjaz2016 on May 07, 2016, 09:20:59 PM
When I stop at traffic light or in traffic , is it necessary to move shift lever from D(Drive) to N(Neutral) ?.  If I do it all the time then I have to go back to D before moving.

Keeping in D all time(when auto start stop is off ) - Will this damage CVT in anyway ?

Also using Auto start-stop silver this issue to some extent because engine is off when stopped. But again I want to know if re-starting engine so many times will create another long term problem.
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: John Ratsey on May 07, 2016, 10:10:16 PM
You don't need to shift to N as long as you keep the brake pedal pressed (which activates the clutch). The auto idle stop should also activate when the car is stationery and the brake pedel pressed. However, as you will discover, there are innumerable conditions when this doesn't happen and an explanatory symbol should appear on the multi-function display.

In theory, the system is designed to handle the extra engine starts. According to the handbook the battery is of a special type and the idle stop won't happen if the battery isn't fully charged. It also won't happen unless the engine is warmed up so the effort to turn the engine over is low. One tip: if the engine has stopped then reducing the pressure on the brake pedal will wake it up before you need to release the brake and pull away.
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: Ozzie on May 08, 2016, 09:42:20 AM
Driving instructor hat goes on. . . .

As John says, holding your foot on the footbrake won't necessarily damage the gearbox as the clutch is activated.

However holding your foot on the brake may dazzle any drivers sat behind you in the queue, especially at night, so once the car behind has afely stopped you should consider the option of selecting N, apply the handbrake and release the footbrake. Also if you are heavy on the brakes, and then sit in stationary traffic with your foot on the footbrake, the heat generated by the braking of the car will now be held in one position on the brake discs, potentially distorting them.

Me ?? Brake gently and early, and keep my foot on the footbrake in D, unless its a long wait at night, for example at a level crossing.
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: Hobo on May 08, 2016, 10:06:47 AM
Not sure about the MK3 but in my handbook (MK2) it states:-

Quote
NEUTRAL (N) -- Use neutral if you need to restart a stalled engine, or if it is necessary to stop briefly with the engine idling.

Consequently I always change into neutral if I am going to be stopped for more than a few seconds when stopped at traffic lights or any road works, the exception being waiting to pull out at junctions.
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: ColinB on May 08, 2016, 10:58:02 AM
I've only driven an auto very infrequently (and never a CVT) so am not aware of their foibles. However, speaking as the driver in the queue behind you at the lights I'd be very grateful please if you did whatever is necessary to ensure that your brake lights are not on all the time. However, I think I read somewhere that the stop/start system will restart the engine if you take your foot off the brake, which seems a bit bizarre to me.

Personally (with a manual box) I put the handbrake on, put the gearlever in neutral, and take my feet off both clutch and brake which stops the engine until I need it again (and provided you're observant of traffic conditions, that procedure won't result in a slow getaway either) ... is there no equivalent for an auto ?
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: Ozzie on May 08, 2016, 02:40:34 PM
I agree, I too would have thought auto-stop would work in N and not just in D
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: Paulwhitt20 on May 08, 2016, 03:57:23 PM
One useful feature of the auto start stop is if you stall the engine then it automatically restarts it for you. For those of you who still want to play with a gearstick and have a manual transmission.

Having to sit in a queue with the brake lights on is annoying but there does not seem to be a way round this in a automatic. It would be nice if when you come to a stop and press the brake pedal firmly the brakes remained on when you take your foot off until you press the go pedal. A bit like hill start assist but on the level as well.
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: Hobo on May 08, 2016, 04:07:25 PM
Having to sit in a queue with the brake lights on is annoying but there does not seem to be a way round this in a automatic.

What is the difference surely it is the same whether it is automatic or manual transmission?

In either when you are stationary in a queue of traffic then the choice is the footbrake which means the brake lights are on or use the handbrake.
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: Paulwhitt20 on May 08, 2016, 04:20:28 PM
In a manual its neutral, clutch out, handbrake on, foot take off.

In an automatic if you leave it in D with the handbrake on then the engine is still trying to drive the wheels. On a Hybrid if you put it in N then it won't charge the battery.

Word of warning. Don't get out of the car if it is in D (or R) and the handbrake is on. I did this once on my icy drive and the front wheels were being driven by the engine and the handbrake was on the rear wheels so it slid down the drive into the road and stopped just a few feet from the lamp post. Learnt a good lesson that day.
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: Hobo on May 08, 2016, 04:40:31 PM
In a manual its neutral, clutch out, handbrake on, foot take off.

Which is exactly what I do in a CVT and in all my previous automatics, into neutral, handbrake on, take foot off, no different.

Maybe the Hybrid is different but I would think the amount of time the battery is not being charged is insignificant compared to the overall running and charging time of the vehicle on most journeys, plus that is why it is a Hybrid.

Word of warning. Don't get out of the car if it is in D (or R) and the handbrake is on.

Would you get out of a manual car when it is in gear?
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: Paulwhitt20 on May 08, 2016, 05:19:09 PM
You can't get out of a manual car when it is in gear as it would stall with the clutch out.

I think auto drivers are lazy and can't be bothered to move from D to N mid journey.  Perhaps we should do as Ozzie says and put it in N with handbrake on. I'll try it out and see how I get on.

Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: edam on May 08, 2016, 06:10:37 PM
If I'm driving in my own area, so know the phasing of traffic lights, I will mostly put the handbrake on and into N but if I'm in a strange area I will more likely leave it in D and keep the foot on the brake.
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: Hobo on May 08, 2016, 06:29:51 PM
I think auto drivers are lazy and can't be bothered to move from D to N mid journey.

Apart from being lazy it is just bad habits that people fall into especially when they have been driving for years without any update of their driving since passing a test many years ago, as instructors we teach people the correct way but they forget what they are taught, plus a lot of people change to an automatic without being aware of the different technique and skills required.
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: edam on May 08, 2016, 06:51:59 PM
I was taught that you should apply the handbrake and then select neutral in that order.
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: Ozzie on May 08, 2016, 07:22:23 PM
I was taught that you should apply the handbrake and then select neutral in that order.
The order is not important as long as the car is under control  :D
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: ColinB on May 10, 2016, 11:57:22 AM
Genuinely puzzled about the "brake lights on all the time" phenomenon. Could a CVT driver please confirm how the stop-start system behaves on their car ?

With a manual, you put the handbrake on, put the gearlever in neutral, take your foot off the clutch, and the engine stops (providing none of the other inhibiting conditions apply). No brake lights 'cos your foot isn't on the brake pedal.

I think the equivalent for a CVT would be to apply the handbrake and put the gearshift into N, so if you do this does the engine stop or not ? I think I read somewhere that you have to also keep your foot on the footbrake (and hence have your stop lights on), else the engine restarts, is that correct ? Or does this only happen if you don't use the handbrake, and/or don't shift into N ?
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: Downsizer on May 10, 2016, 12:52:17 PM
Quote

I think the equivalent for a CVT would be to apply the handbrake and put the gearshift into N, so if you do this does the engine stop or not ? I think I read somewhere that you have to also keep your foot on the footbrake (and hence have your stop lights on), else the engine restarts, is that correct ? Or does this only happen if you don't use the handbrake, and/or don't shift into N ?
You're correct. The stop-start is controlled by the footbrake regardless of what else you do.  If you go into N and apply the handbrake, and then take your foot off the footbrake, the engine restarts.  Otherwise, the engine would have to restart when you put your foot back on the footbrake prior to reselecting D, which I suppose the electronics can't cope with.  I don't know if the same is true on other makes of automatic.

Of course, for a long stop such as a level crossing, it's easy to go into P and switch the engine off, which is what we all used to do before stop-start was around.
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: ColinB on May 10, 2016, 01:56:55 PM
The stop-start is controlled by the footbrake regardless of what else you do.  If you go into N and apply the handbrake, and then take your foot off the footbrake, the engine restarts.  Otherwise, the engine would have to restart when you put your foot back on the footbrake prior to reselecting D, which I suppose the electronics can't cope with.  I don't know if the same is true on other makes of automatic.
Thanks for confirming. So drivers of CVTs (and possibly autos from other manufacturers), unless they remember to turn off the stop-start feature every time, will inadvertently annoy other drivers queued behind them. I daresay the engineers had a reason for designing it like that, but it's difficult to conceive of a reason for requiring the footbrake to be applied if the handbrake is also on; the manual box seems perfectly happy and safe with the handbrake alone, so why does the CVT need belt AND braces ? And the electronics on the manual box are quite capable of restarting the engine when the clutch pedal is depressed, so I don't see why they can't do that with the brake pedal on the CVT.

It's probably something to do with the cars being designed for the rolling road fuel consumption/emission tests rather than the real world. There's no car following, so there's no problem if the brake lights are on unnecessarily.
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: hndjaz2016 on May 22, 2016, 06:30:06 PM
@John Ratsey - "You don't need to shift to N as long as you keep the brake pedal pressed (which activates the clutch)."

Honda dealer told me that new Jazz has torque converter equipped CVT. This was also confirmed by Honda customer care via email. This means no clutch in CVT Jazz?

If there is a clutch then will it be damaged by keeping in D while stopped ? (like a manual car).
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: VicW on May 22, 2016, 07:15:30 PM
The CVT was reintroduced to the Jazz on the facelift model in 2011 and included a change to a torque converter clutch.
I think the instruction manual will tell you to put the transmission to 'N' if stationery for more than a few seconds, this a simple movement of the selector lever that doesn't require use of the catch between 'D' and 'N' and back.
Unfortunately with advent of more 'stop/start' vehicles on the road the 'foot on brake pedal while stationary' syndrome is only going to get worse so that those that don't will be the exception.

Vic.
Title: Re: CVT - D or N at stop
Post by: andruec on June 20, 2016, 09:57:07 AM
You're correct. The stop-start is controlled by the footbrake regardless of what else you do.  If you go into N and apply the handbrake, and then take your foot off the footbrake, the engine restarts.
Which I think is daft.
Quote
Otherwise, the engine would have to restart when you put your foot back on the footbrake prior to reselecting D
I don't think that's a problem. The engine restarts when you move the gear lever out of N anyway, even if you keep the footbrake pressed down.