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Honda Jazz, HR-V & Hybrid Forums => Honda Jazz Mk2 2008-2015 => Topic started by: robertjazz on November 11, 2020, 10:49:02 PM

Title: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: robertjazz on November 11, 2020, 10:49:02 PM
Hi, I have a Honda Jazz 2008 Gli 1.3 GE (MY09).

When I bought it (used), I used to always use Shell V-Power 98 on it. But I started travelling longer distances lately, so I switched to Shell E10 because I thought it was more economical. I measured the fuel economy between 98 and E10 and they are very similar, ranging from 12-13L/100km in my use case. I confirmed that the car is compatible with E10 from the owner's manual, and also from the sticker on the fuel door.

Owner's manual aside, is it good to use E10 on a Honda Jazz? Will it not have a detrimental effect on the engine or fuel system if I use it for the long-term? Has anyone been using it long-term on their Jazz?
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: sparky Paul on November 11, 2020, 11:21:15 PM
We only have E5 here in the UK, so there won't be many on here with experience of using E10 long term or otherwise. E10 has been widely used in a few other European countries for some years now, and the UK Government is currently consulting on the introduction of E10 in 2021.

It shouldn't be a problem for most modern cars, hoses, seals and gaskets used in the fuel system are compatible with ethanol - indeed E10 compatibility has been mandatory here for new cars here in the UK since 2011.

So, the short answer is...  \_(ツ)_/

Here's an old thread about E10... https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=11906.0
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: culzean on November 12, 2020, 08:36:33 AM
Hi, I have a Honda Jazz 2008 Gli 1.3 GE (MY09).

When I bought it (used), I used to always use Shell V-Power 98 on it. But I started travelling longer distances lately, so I switched to Shell E10 because I thought it was more economical. I measured the fuel economy between 98 and E10 and they are very similar, ranging from 12-13L/100km in my use case. I confirmed that the car is compatible with E10 from the owner's manual, and also from the sticker on the fuel door.

Owner's manual aside, is it good to use E10 on a Honda Jazz? Will it not have a detrimental effect on the engine or fuel system if I use it for the long-term? Has anyone been using it long-term on their Jazz?

Problem with ethanol is that it attracts / absorbs water and allow bugs to breed in the fuel system,  this produces an acidic environment that causes corrosion of metals... the more ethanol in the fuel the worse it gets.

https://www.equipmentworld.com/e-10-alive-the-corrosive-damage-ethanol-gasoline-does-to-your-fuel-pump/

I put Sta-Bil fuel stabiliser in motorbike fuel system and also mower etc over winter


And water in aviation fuel is potentially disastrous

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aviation-international-news/2008-05-08/additives-dont-add-power-they-just-keep-jet-safe
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: Westy36 on November 12, 2020, 08:52:26 AM
Years ago I found a very comprehensive vehicle list when I wanted to check if my 2002 Skoda Octavia would be ok on E10 on our many European trips. It was, and made no noticeable difference. A quick search and Ive found this which should answer your question:
 https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/ACEA_E10_compatibility.pdf (https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/ACEA_E10_compatibility.pdf)  :)
I appreciate you're outside the EU, so perhaps worth checking in your domestic area, but I can't see Honda using different fuel systems for different markets.
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: springswood on November 12, 2020, 10:01:06 AM
Forgive me for saying it but if you're using 12-13 l/100km are you sure all is as it should be? Unless you're driving it like a racing car  I would expect 8 or less, or in British terms 35+ mpg not the 24 or less you mentioned. I'd be looking for binding brakes - find somewhere quiet to roll to a stop without touching the brake pedal then carefully check if any of the wheel hubs feel hot. Also air filter and 8 plugs.
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: Jocko on November 12, 2020, 10:17:49 AM
I use 5.1 l/100 km.
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: robertjazz on November 13, 2020, 04:10:13 AM
Forgive me for saying it but if you're using 12-13 l/100km are you sure all is as it should be? Unless you're driving it like a racing car  I would expect 8 or less, or in British terms 35+ mpg not the 24 or less you mentioned. I'd be looking for binding brakes - find somewhere quiet to roll to a stop without touching the brake pedal then carefully check if any of the wheel hubs feel hot. Also air filter and 8 plugs.

Thanks for mentioning it. Previously, I too was wondering before why my fuel economy is like that.

My daily usage currently is:
8.0 km going to destination, and 8.0 km going back home.
8.3 km going to destination, and 8.7 km going back home.

Other amenities (groceries, park, mall, clinic, church, restaurants, etc.) are within 5-10km of my home, so I seldom travel longer distances.  The travel is also a bit start/stop because of roundabouts, school zones, and humps around the area. So I thought that the fuel economy is due to my daily routine. 

Additionally:
1. I asked a mechanic (but not from the Honda service center) about it, and he said it is also due to my usage.

2. Early this year, before the pandemic struck, I had an opportunity to travel 76 km straight to a destination, and most of it was on an express way. So what I did was I reset the trip monitor from the dashboard to be able to ascertain what the fuel economy was in longer distances. At the end of the trip, the trip monitor showed 6.6L / km which is exactly what is advertised for my Honda Jazz variant (this is the brochure for reference on fuel consumption: http://australiancar.reviews/_pdfs/Honda_Jazz_GE-I_Brochure_200902.pdf).  So I assumed there was nothing wrong with it.



Do you guys think that even with this routine, the fuel economy on the Jazz should still be better than 12-13L / 100km? If yes, then I will have it investigated.
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: Jocko on November 13, 2020, 07:02:20 AM
The figure below my avatar is my AVERAGE mpg over the 4.5 years and 45,000 miles (72,500 km) since I bought the car. I do a 6 km commute, twice a day in the same conditions as you drive. Most weekends I have a highway trip of 65 km in each direction. My best economy for a tank of petrol is 69.9 mpg.
I bought the Jazz to replace a Volvo S40 automatic that was returning better l/100 km than your Jazz. I would get the brakes checked for dragging. Other than that it is likely to be your style of driving. I try to avoid using my brakes as much as possible using anticipation in their place. After 45,000 miles I am still on the pads the car came with, and they were by no means new then.
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: springswood on November 13, 2020, 08:39:40 AM
Even when I've had weeks when I only did trips under 8km involving a lot of hills, taking the dogs on the moors, my worst fuel consumption has been around 7 l/100 km, 40 mpg UK. It has only gone below that when I had a binding rear brake and when I'd forgotten to change the air filter.

The Gli is not a model we got in the UK but I'm assuming, being 2008, it has the iDsi engine with 2 spark plugs per cylinder so it would be similar to mine. Incidentally I've done 127,000 miles (203,000 km).

Two things I've done that have improved my fuel economy are changing the rear coils 100 and the battery 45. All thanks to information I got here.

When I got the car the rear spark plugs hadn't been changed for a long time. I could tell because the gap was up to 3mm rather than the 1mm it should be. That, combined with the heat from the exhaust, stresses those coils and you can get a weak spark without having any error codes.

The battery makes a big difference to short journeys because, with a good battery the ecu effectively disconnects the alternator while the engine is warming up and at idle reducing the hit to fuel economy. There were two signs may car was relying on the alternator more than it was designed to. Clearest was the steering would occasionally be heavy when parking. That's because the battery couldn't find the 40 amps needed by the electric power steering and the engine wasn't turning fast enough for the alternator to supply the shortfall. The other was a tendency to feel it was about to die pulling off, especially when cold. Again due to load from the alternator because the battery was weak. Compensating for that with extra revs eats fuel.

You can easily tell the state of a battery from the voltage with no load. I can't remember the figures but they're on this site somewhere.
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: culzean on November 13, 2020, 09:16:39 AM
The battery makes a big difference to short journeys because, with a good battery the ecu effectively disconnects the alternator while the engine is warming up and at idle reducing the hit to fuel economy. There were two signs may car was relying on the alternator more than it was designed to. Clearest was the steering would occasionally be heavy when parking. That's because the battery couldn't find the 40 amps needed by the electric power steering and the engine wasn't turning fast enough for the alternator to supply the shortfall. The other was a tendency to feel it was about to die pulling off, especially when cold. Again due to load from the alternator because the battery was weak. Compensating for that with extra revs eats fuel.

You can easily tell the state of a battery from the voltage with no load. I can't remember the figures but they're on this site somewhere.

Good advice,  the battery is one of the most neglected parts of a car, it is on a downward spiral as soon as it leaves the factory and being kept in a low state of charge only speeds up its demise,  a lead acid battery will last as little as 3 years and as much as 8 - but that depends a lot on how good it was to start with and how it has been treated.  If you don't know when the battery was replaced or it is older than 5 years it is definitely time to replace - modern batteries do not normally fail suddenly they just slowly degrade over time.  This one comes with a five year warranty and higher cranking amps and reserve ( 340 vs 280 amps and 40 vs 35 amps ) than standard battery - and for 46 delivered to your door is a steal - ( check price of same battery at Halfrauds ) -   https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/yuasa/ybx5054/

The terminal voltage is only part of the story, as a battery ages its 'internal resistance' increases and its ability to both accept and release power drops, as springwood rightly says this puts extra load on the alternator because the battery can no longer supply adequate power for the cars systems. 

Posters on this forum had strange problems with error lights and codes on electric power steering system that defied logic, replacing the battery cured the problems...
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: sparky Paul on November 13, 2020, 09:26:15 AM
The Gli is not a model we got in the UK but I'm assuming, being 2008, it has the iDsi engine with 2 spark plugs per cylinder so it would be similar to mine.

I think the OP's car has the VTEC engine with the conventional auto gearbox.


Early this year, before the pandemic struck, I had an opportunity to travel 76 km straight to a destination, and most of it was on an express way. So what I did was I reset the trip monitor from the dashboard to be able to ascertain what the fuel economy was in longer distances. At the end of the trip, the trip monitor showed 6.6L / km which is exactly what is advertised for my Honda Jazz variant (this is the brochure for reference on fuel consumption: http://australiancar.reviews/_pdfs/Honda_Jazz_GE-I_Brochure_200902.pdf).  So I assumed there was nothing wrong with it.

6.6L/km is equivalent to 42.8mpg, which sounds about right if yours is the VTEC engine with conventional auto gearbox. Note that is a combined figure, the figure given for urban driving is 8.2l/100km, which is around 34mpg.

However, 12-13l/100km works out at around 22-23mpg, which does sound poor, even for an auto in urban driving. I guess it's possible, if the car is only being driven a few miles each time, and from cold.
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: Jocko on November 13, 2020, 09:34:29 AM
and for 46 delivered to your door is a steal
I don't think they would deliver it to Australia for that price.
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: sparky Paul on November 13, 2020, 09:42:53 AM
and for 46 delivered to your door is a steal
I don't think they would deliver it to Australia for that price.

Worth a try  ;D
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: springswood on November 13, 2020, 10:02:05 AM
That's exactly the battery I got  :D
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: culzean on November 13, 2020, 11:30:32 AM
and for 46 delivered to your door is a steal
I don't think they would deliver it to Australia for that price.

Worth a try  ;D

6 to 8 weeks delivery from UK - you will get the same battery locally though if you want it quicker :)
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: robertjazz on November 19, 2020, 09:19:02 AM
Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions.  :)

Based on the info you have posted here, the fuel economy does seem to not be in the correct range even with my usage. So I'll do further investigation on it.

Some additional info/questions:
-Yes, the car has a VTEC engine with the conventional auto gearbox. Does anyone here drive auto?

-The spark plugs (there are four of them according to the service invoice) were replaced only last August 12, 2019. So it seems unlikely that they are the cause of the issue?

-There are two filters in the service manual that might be the air filter, can you please point out which one exactly is the air filter? There is a "dust and pollen filter" that was last replaced on August 12, 2019, and there is an "air cleaner element" that was last replaced on January 10, 2018.

-For the battery, it was last replaced on December 23, 2017, and it was last tested on June 29, 2019. The result said "good". However, I did have issues with the EPS when doing parking maneuvers:https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=11297.0 (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=11297.0). I didn't do anything to fix it, I just avoided the said maneuvers.

-For the binding brakes, should there something unusual that I would feel while driving? Or could the issue be there but undetected?

-For driving style, I think I do have a tendency to brake more often than necessary. I'm working on minimizing it.

-The air conditioner is always turned on when I am driving. The settings vary depending on how hot it is outside.

-The car is out of sync with the maintenance schedule. The maintenance schedule in the service manual is supposed to be every 6 months OR 10,000 km. The previous owner just had it serviced based on the number of kilometres.  For example, the major service that should have been done in 72 months or 120,000 km hasn't been done yet because the car has only traveled 97,528 km in the past 12 years.

Another thing I noticed is that when going up a slope, even if it is not that steep, the car doesn't seem to want to shift. The RPM is "stuck" at around 3000-4000. I have to step hard on the accelerator to be able to get it to shift. The problem with doing that is there is a burst of power, and if there is another car upfront, I have to press the brakes again to decelerate.  I wonder if these factors are negatively affecting the fuel economy as well?


I will have the car checked by a mechanic, but would be great to get your feedback on the items above.
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: sparky Paul on November 19, 2020, 09:51:09 AM
A problem with the auto gearbox could certainly affect your fuel consumption, and that doesn't sound like normal behaviour.
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: Jocko on November 19, 2020, 09:52:10 AM
If I was going up a hill at 4-5000 rpm I'd be easing back to change up. Not trying to change down. No wonder your mpg is rubbish.
 The air filter is in the plastic box at the right of the engine. The pollen filter inside the glove box. Neither will effect the mpg.
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: springswood on November 19, 2020, 10:06:36 AM
It's the air cleaner element that filters the air entering the engine. As yours hasn't been changed in almost 3 years it could well be a big part of the problem. Really it's distance that counts, after 10k miles (16k km) my fuel consumption increased rapidly. Cheap to change and just about the easiest DIY job there is. It could also account for the reluctance to rev you mention. So I'd say change that then see how it goes.
You're right the spark plugs should be OK. They last for 120k km.
Binding brakes aren't always obvious. I think I mentioned how to check for them or it's worth a quick search.
I don't know about auto boxes but I expect someone will.

Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: Jocko on November 19, 2020, 01:26:06 PM
The air filter does not have an effect on fuel consumption on a fuel-injected engine, unlike an engine that uses a carburettor/s. As the filter starts to block up, the ECM reduces the fuel it supplies to the engine. A seriously blocked air filter will reduce performance however.
The manual says to replace the air filter every 20,000 km.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/11/replacing-clogged-air-filters-wont-really-improve-fuel-economy-on-modern-cars-though-it-will-improve-performance/ (https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/11/replacing-clogged-air-filters-wont-really-improve-fuel-economy-on-modern-cars-though-it-will-improve-performance/)
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: Westy36 on November 19, 2020, 03:21:08 PM
The air filter does not have an effect on fuel consumption on a fuel-injected engine, unlike an engine that uses a carburettor/s. As the filter starts to block up, the ECM reduces the fuel it supplies to the engine. A seriously blocked air filter will reduce performance however.
The manual says to replace the air filter every 20,000 km.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/11/replacing-clogged-air-filters-wont-really-improve-fuel-economy-on-modern-cars-though-it-will-improve-performance/ (https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/11/replacing-clogged-air-filters-wont-really-improve-fuel-economy-on-modern-cars-though-it-will-improve-performance/)

Well that goes against established knowledge. Every day is a school day as they say. I dont doubt the facts, but I'll still be changing the filter when its dirty!  :D 
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: Jocko on November 19, 2020, 08:31:57 PM
I dont doubt the facts, but I'll still be changing the filter when its dirty!  :D
Me too.
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: springswood on November 21, 2020, 10:11:48 AM
That's interesting and puzzling. Around this time last year I noticed my fuel consumption get worse by 3mpg or more, saw the air filter was filthy and when I replaced it my mpg recovered. I have wondered if there is a leak somewhere on the intake side or perhaps a dirty throttle body because the OBD reader shows I don't get any deceleration fuel cut off. Unfortunately I don't have the tools to go into that. Perhaps this is preventing the ecu from compensating for the air filter.
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: John Ratsey on November 21, 2020, 12:48:54 PM
The air filter does not have an effect on fuel consumption on a fuel-injected engine, unlike an engine that uses a carburettor/s. As the filter starts to block up, the ECM reduces the fuel it supplies to the engine. A seriously blocked air filter will reduce performance however.
So to compensate for poor performance the driver pushes the accelerator harder which, if nothing else, is likely to get the engine trying to suck more air, add more fuel and move to a less efficient operating zone. We all function better if we can breath properly.
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: madasafish on November 21, 2020, 01:37:05 PM
The air filter does not have an effect on fuel consumption on a fuel-injected engine, unlike an engine that uses a carburettor/s. As the filter starts to block up, the ECM reduces the fuel it supplies to the engine. A seriously blocked air filter will reduce performance however.
The manual says to replace the air filter every 20,000 km.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/11/replacing-clogged-air-filters-wont-really-improve-fuel-economy-on-modern-cars-though-it-will-improve-performance/ (https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/11/replacing-clogged-air-filters-wont-really-improve-fuel-economy-on-modern-cars-though-it-will-improve-performance/)

Err

Air filter blocked, fuel injection cuts down fuel, engine loses power, driver treads harder on accelerator...
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: sparky Paul on November 21, 2020, 02:23:25 PM
The air filter does not have an effect on fuel consumption on a fuel-injected engine, unlike an engine that uses a carburettor/s. As the filter starts to block up, the ECM reduces the fuel it supplies to the engine. A seriously blocked air filter will reduce performance however.
The manual says to replace the air filter every 20,000 km.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/11/replacing-clogged-air-filters-wont-really-improve-fuel-economy-on-modern-cars-though-it-will-improve-performance/ (https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/11/replacing-clogged-air-filters-wont-really-improve-fuel-economy-on-modern-cars-though-it-will-improve-performance/)

Err

Air filter blocked, fuel injection cuts down fuel, engine loses power, driver treads harder on accelerator...

...which opens the throttle wider, restoring the air flow and the ECU puts the same amount of fuel in.

The only difference is that the driver has to open the throttle wider for the same engine output - the throttle is only alters the amount of air going in, the ECU controls the fuel to suit. It sounds a bit odd, but Jocko's link is indeed correct. You could easily get incomplete combustion from too much fuel going in with a carburettor and a choked filter, but that shouldn't happen with fuel injection.

However, it can make a difference to how the driver drives the car, which could affect the fuel consumption,
Title: Re: Is it good to use E10 (90% ULP, 10% Ethanol) on the Honda Jazz?
Post by: embee on November 24, 2020, 02:00:34 PM
Hi all. I've worked in the auto industry on powertrains for 40yrs. Some interesting topics being discussed, and there are a lot of "yes, but ...." scenarios.
First question regarding ethanol E10 fuel. I'd suggest it's fine if the vehicle is compatible, which most post 2010 or so vehicles will be. You can usually check it for the particular make/model online.
Yes ethanol does combine with water, but that can be a benefit in that it keeps it in suspension rather than allowing it to pool and sit as water droplets, so E10 will tend to purge any water from the system better than other fuel. Bear in mind that most pump petrol has been allowed to contain up to 5% ethanol for years without needing to be labelled as such. De-watering/anti-icing additives are usually alcohol based, typically IPA, in order to attach to the water and carry it out, but ethanol does a similar job.
I often use it when on continental europe trips, but I also often put 98RON stuff in too when it is only a few cents dearer than 95, often the case in France. I won't get into the RON debate here.
In principle a modern engine should maintain the correct air/fuel ratio within reasonable limits of air filter life, certainly at all general running conditions short of full throttle and high engine speed. The one thing I'd suggest is that Australia is a bit of a different ballgame to the UK. We used to development test cars in Australia and they have a breed of dust there which is a nightmare, extremely fine and cakes on all surfaces especially if it gets wet then dries on. I'd suggest regular air filter changes if that's the environment, in Europe/UK it's really pretty clean air these days, 25k mls is perfectly fine for a filter usually.
The industry "lifetime" figure for an air filter is usually something like a pressure drop increase across the filter of about 15mBar (5" H2O etc) compared to a new filter at rated flow, and the new dP might be around the same value, typically 1.5% of atmospheric. This translates more or less directly as the same percentage power loss, maybe 1.5 or 2%.
A good design of air cleaner directs air at one general area of the filter, this results in the dirt getting concentrated in one spot and the rest stays reasonably clean for longer. If you see a really dirty patch on the filter, it's probably a good design, the clean air can turn the corners easier than the dirt.