Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums

Honda Jazz, HR-V & Hybrid Forums => Honda Jazz Mk1 2002-2008 => Topic started by: zeusmc on September 07, 2020, 03:07:27 PM

Title: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 07, 2020, 03:07:27 PM
I took the battery out of the car, to the right of battery tray is a red cable, on the other side is a black one. I thought red = positive and black = negative. I put the battery back in and bit of sparking on black cable on battery terminal. As soon as sparked, took cable off. I then noticed on the black cable, on its metal clamp was a + sign. So I momentarily connected the battery up the wrong way. The car is dead, no ignition lights, nothing. I think I must have blown a fuse, as car was working fine. To remove fuses, see attached. Am I OK to remove F1 main supply fuse and  F3 main fuse ignition? I have a Ohms/ Volts meter, tester.So I should be able to check for current flow, would I attach the meters probes, to the fuse screw tabs to test the fuse?
Thanks. 
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: culzean on September 07, 2020, 03:17:49 PM
I took the battery out of the car, to the right of battery tray is a red cable, on the other side is a black one. I thought red = positive and black = negative. I put the battery back in and bit of sparking on black cable on battery terminal. As soon as sparked, took cable off. I then noticed on the black cable, on its metal clamp was a + sign. So I momentarily connected the battery up the wrong way. The car is dead, no ignition lights, nothing. I think I must have blown a fuse, as car was working fine. To remove fuses, see attached. Am I OK to remove F1 main supply fuse and  F3 main fuse ignition? I have a Ohms/ Volts meter, tester.So I should be able to check for current flow, would I attach the meters probes, to the fuse screw tabs to test the fuse?
Thanks.

The battery clamps that fit over post are different sizes for + and -  also the positive cable clamp has a red plastic insulating cover over it.  I can only guess that a previous owner changed the cables as both cables normally black, with just the different sizes of terminal clamp and normally a very short earth cable that will not normally reach he battery terminal if battery fitted the wrong way, the negative terminal goes to bodywork on every car built in last 40 years.

You may be lucky and have blown the main F1 fuse, I would look at that first, but if not it could get messy.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 07, 2020, 04:04:21 PM
" blown the fuse within the positive battery terminal clamp assembly under the red cover "
I don't have any of that see photo.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: culzean on September 07, 2020, 04:52:48 PM
" blown the fuse within the positive battery terminal clamp assembly under the red cover "
I don't have any of that see photo.

Sorry,  it looked a lot like a fuse,  it has a zig-zag metal element inside but I noticed it has a couple of small wires crimped and soldered to it,  I think it may be part of the electric load detector,  the main 80 amp fuse if F1 in the under-bonnet fuse box.   When I saw the large cable going off to starter motor solenoid and a smaller one coming out from under red terminal cover heading off in direction for main fusebox I assumed there was a fuse under there, but it looks like part of the ELD.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 07, 2020, 05:02:28 PM
"  I noticed it has a couple of small wires crimped and soldered to it,  "No, these are a freezer bag cable tie, the clamp wouldn't tighten down fully on the post, so I filled the gap, so is a nice tight fit now.

I'll unscrew and use my ohms/volts tester on the main F1 fuse, Tuesday.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: culzean on September 07, 2020, 05:33:51 PM
"  I noticed it has a couple of small wires crimped and soldered to it,  "No, these are a freezer bag cable tie, the clamp wouldn't tighten down fully on the post, so I filled the gap, so is a nice tight fit now.

I'll unscrew and use my ohms/volts tester on the main F1 fuse, Tuesday.
Thanks.

The positive and negative terminal post clamps are different sizes to make it obvious which one is positive and which negative,  the positive is larger diameter than the negative by a noticeable amount,  and while the positive clamp may fit over the negative post it will not clamp properly, and the negative clamp will not fit over the positive battery post without being bent to make it bigger.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: culzean on September 07, 2020, 05:38:48 PM
I have a MK2 Jazz now and the positive battery clamp is different to the MK1 -  the MK2 has the ELD included in the positive battery clamp,  on the MK1 the electronic load detector ( ELD ) is in the main fuse box.   Battery connections are normally designed so that positive is nearest engine to keep the cables as short as possible.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: Jocko on September 07, 2020, 05:49:26 PM
The battery is in back to front.

(https://parkers-images.bauersecure.com/gallery-image/pagefiles/195409/engine-bay/1752x1168/dsc02900.jpg)
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: madasafish on September 08, 2020, 10:22:01 AM
Nice clean engine. Is is ever used? :P :P :P
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: Jocko on September 08, 2020, 11:35:39 AM
That is just a stock photo to show the correct way the battery goes in. It could have been brand new or it may be a show car.
zeusmc has put his battery in back to front, hence the issues he is having.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: culzean on September 08, 2020, 11:48:00 AM
That is just a stock photo to show the correct way the battery goes in. It could have been brand new or it may be a show car.
zeusmc has put his battery in back to front, hence the issues he is having.

Basically it is the wrong terminal arrangement for the car, his photo shows smaller negative terminal on RH front and larger positive terminal on the LH front,  but on the proper Jazz battery the negative post is at RH rear, .   I think the red cable going down to bolt on battery tray is not original, as IIRC the original cable goes to a bolt on the wing or front cross member, and original cable is black.

OP has fitted a Varta A15 which has opposite terminal layout to normal Jazz battery The Varta A14 has the same terminal layout as the Yuasa YBX5054 silver

https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/yuasa/ybx5054/
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: Jocko on September 08, 2020, 11:59:54 AM
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcT7i8IglFzNVEmJZrEU7u2nSlohkgZ6dWV6MKG39ZbyKbGs38j0Uw&usqp=CAc)
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 08, 2020, 04:27:19 PM
I have a MK2 Jazz now and the positive battery clamp is different to the MK1 -  the MK2 has the ELD included in the positive battery clamp,  on the MK1 the electronic load detector ( ELD ) is in the main fuse box.   Battery connections are normally designed so that positive is nearest engine to keep the cables as short as possible.
I used the Volts/Ohm tester on the F1 mains supply fuse and the F3 main ignition fuse. I put the test probes on the brass lugs that are screwed down holding the fuse in popsition, couldn't get the screws undone. Both fuses passed current.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 08, 2020, 04:33:08 PM
Also see my other post on the car not starting.  Won't Start After Lockdown Easing
I didn't proceed with this as have had problems and threats from the people next door, am reluctant to go out to car when they are hanging around.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: culzean on September 08, 2020, 07:06:20 PM
https://community.cartalk.com/t/consequences-of-hooking-a-car-battery-backwards/45560/6

According to this link the alternator will be fried, and if you turned ignition switch that would allow reverse voltage onto a lot more equipment so compounding the problem....

I hope the main fuse blew, but even then it is pretty certain the alternator is history, and maybe ECU


Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 08, 2020, 07:42:39 PM
Hi,
I didn't turn the ignition.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: sparky Paul on September 08, 2020, 10:31:21 PM
A number of modules have permanent 12V via the engine bay fusebox, including the instrument panel, which is critical to the operation of the car. First of all, you need to make sure that all fuses in this fusebox are intact, and beware of testing in situ. Then it's a matter of working through the wiring to see what's got 12V and what hasn't.

http://www.hondafitjazz.com/wiring_diagram.html

The alternator regulator may be fried, you are probably 50/50 on that, but it should not prevent you seeing some life.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 09, 2020, 08:11:32 AM
OK I'll check the engine bay fuses again. As I mentioned I did check the F1 main supply fuse, F3 main ignition fuse in situ, as I couldn't undo the holding screws, both passed current.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: culzean on September 09, 2020, 08:30:41 AM
OK I'll check the engine bay fuses again. As I mentioned I did check the F1 main supply fuse, F3 main ignition fuse in situ, as I couldn't undo the holding screws, both passed current.
Thank you.

As SparkyP says testing fuses in-situ not a good idea as the meter can read other things in circuit, and it the fuse is blown and you put a ohm-meter across it there is a chance you can get full 12 volts which will not be kind to the meter. 
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 09, 2020, 08:45:48 AM
" as the meter can read other things in circuit " I had a feeling that other things would interfere with the reading but carried on.

Would I be OK to put a couple of drops of releasing, penetrating oil, on the screrw heads, lugs to help loosen up, so I can get them out to test?
Cheers.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: culzean on September 09, 2020, 08:54:26 AM
" as the meter can read other things in circuit " I had a feeling that other things would interfere with the reading but carried on.

Would I be OK to put a couple of drops of releasing, penetrating oil, on the screrw heads, lugs to help loosen up, so I can get them out to test?
Cheers.

Try tightening the screws slightly before trying to loosen them,  that will often work - and make sure your screwdriver bit is the proper one and fits properly as it is easy to ruin the head with wrong screwdriver.  Choices are PZ = pozidriver, Philips = PH or Japanese industrial standard = JIS ( which often have a small indented dot on the head )

http://dansmc.com/jis_screw.htm

https://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/types-of-screwdriver.htm
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 10, 2020, 12:37:11 PM
Just had a look at those links, am going out to check fuses again.
Cheers.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 10, 2020, 01:41:47 PM
" as the meter can read other things in circuit " I had a feeling that other things would interfere with the reading but carried on.

Would I be OK to put a couple of drops of releasing, penetrating oil, on the screrw heads, lugs to help loosen up, so I can get them out to test?
Cheers.

Try tightening the screws slightly before trying to loosen them,  that will often work - and make sure your screwdriver bit is the proper one and fits properly as it is easy to ruin the head with wrong screwdriver.  Choices are PZ = pozidriver, Philips = PH or Japanese industrial standard = JIS ( which often have a small indented dot on the head )

http://dansmc.com/jis_screw.htm

https://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/types-of-screwdriver.htm

I pulled out all the fuses that were pull out, put old curtain around, so wouldn't drop them into car, or lose on ground.... smart boy:)
The screw heads have a dot on them,so I will need to buy a set of JIS drivers.I thought the screwed in fuses could be tested in situ, then told best to remove to test. Hadn't thought of looking at tops of them.

 I noticed I could see the top of the F1 main 80A supply fuse, can see the filiment between the poles has burnt through. Looking at the tops of the other fuses, all are good.

 Just initial looking I see on Ebay 173703397020  a new 80A fuse for 20, it might be a better economy to buy a used fuse box for about the same price, then I could also have spare fuses and relays if happen to need to replce now or possibly in future. Would any Honda Jazz fuse box do, or does have to be the 2004 year of my car? These long leg fuses,  253527457403 are a load cheaper would one fit?
Cheers.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: culzean on September 10, 2020, 05:48:37 PM
Is there a machinemart close to you ?

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/6-piece-jis-screwdriver-set/
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 10, 2020, 06:40:43 PM
Yes but 6 miles away, and the Machine Mart link, says product discontinued. When tried to undo screw with what seemed a right fitting Philips,started to slip on head. Reluctant to try turning otherway you suggested, then might mess up screw head, leads into other problem. My brother has Amazon Prime, but anything on Prime is quite a bit more than Machine Mart.

This Ebay listing 313213985682, says fast and free, often items listed as such arrive sooner than the date they give.( By Tuesday 15th Sept )  I'm in a semi rural town, nothing like Screwfix, Toolstation here. A longshot, there is an ironmongery shop here, will give them a call first thing in morning.

I'm going to have to have an 80A fuse. So should I order that genuine Honda Jazz 80A replacement fuse?
Cheers for help on this.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: Jocko on September 10, 2020, 06:57:47 PM
Amazon do a set for 15. Get them tomorrow.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 10, 2020, 07:42:48 PM
OK thanks can you give me description, link?
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: Jocko on September 10, 2020, 09:43:52 PM
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sealey-AK4314-4pc-JIS-Screwdriver/dp/B07YDSR1HL/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=JIS+Screwdrivers&qid=1599770601&s=diy&sr=1-3 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sealey-AK4314-4pc-JIS-Screwdriver/dp/B07YDSR1HL/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=JIS+Screwdrivers&qid=1599770601&s=diy&sr=1-3)
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 11, 2020, 10:48:42 AM
Hi and thanks, just ordered the screwdriver set, from Ebay same price but estimated delivery sooner.
Also ordered the 80A fuse, estimated delivery Mon, 21 Sep 2020 - Tue, 22 Sep 2020.
With luck will come earlier, when received and fitted, will get back to forum with results.
Cheers :) Stay safe.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: Jocko on September 11, 2020, 10:58:56 AM
Don't know what eBay was offering but Amazon would have delivered it to me today!
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 11, 2020, 02:56:52 PM
Amazon, wasn't listed as Prime.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: sparky Paul on September 11, 2020, 03:46:52 PM
Amazon, wasn't listed as Prime.

It is if you select Amazon as the seller

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B07YDSR1HL/ref=olp_f_primeEligible?ie=UTF8&f_new=true&f_primeEligible=true
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 11, 2020, 04:14:51 PM
Oh, too late now, thanks anyway, would still have to wait for fuse to be delivered.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: sparky Paul on September 13, 2020, 12:47:18 PM
No matter, hope the fuse does the trick. Good luck  ;)
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 13, 2020, 03:11:44 PM
Fingers...... crossed :)  As I say I'll update the forum with the result.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 14, 2020, 04:38:42 PM
No matter, hope the fuse does the trick. Good luck  ;)
JIS patter screwdriver set and replacement fuse arrived this morning. Put new fuse in 3pm, turned ignition....... very pleased to say, started first time. A big relief too.
Thanks everyone for the input on this:) Stay safe.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: culzean on September 14, 2020, 05:10:12 PM
That is good news, is the alternator charging OK ? Have you checked the voltage at battery terminals with engine running ? If it is below 14 volts you may have lost a diode in alternator or damaged the charge control module.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: Jocko on September 14, 2020, 05:38:37 PM
I think you have been very lucky and your experience should be a lesson to us all.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 14, 2020, 10:03:53 PM
That is good news, is the alternator charging OK ? Have you checked the voltage at battery terminals with engine running ? If it is below 14 volts you may have lost a diode in alternator or damaged the charge control module.
I'll check this Tuesday morning and let the forum know..... fingers crossed :)
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: sparky Paul on September 14, 2020, 11:47:49 PM
Phew!  ;)
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 15, 2020, 02:55:00 PM
That is good news, is the alternator charging OK ? Have you checked the voltage at battery terminals with engine running ? If it is below 14 volts you may have lost a diode in alternator or damaged the charge control module.
I set the volt meter to the 50 range, seemed to get a reading of 12.5/13V
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: Jocko on September 15, 2020, 04:53:58 PM
That is the battery voltage. Switch the headlights on and it should go up to 14.6v.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: culzean on September 15, 2020, 05:54:46 PM
The alternator output should never really go below about 13.6 as that is the bare minimum to keep battery condition without really charging it ( float voltage ).
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: Jocko on September 15, 2020, 05:57:44 PM
I set the volt meter to the 50 range, seemed to get a reading of 12.5/13V
I assume this is with the engine running?
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 16, 2020, 10:16:12 AM
I set the volt meter to the 50 range, seemed to get a reading of 12.5/13V
I assume this is with the engine running?
Just went out and tested again, 12.5/13V with engine running and lights on.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: Jocko on September 16, 2020, 10:25:00 AM
Sounds like the alternator is shot.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 16, 2020, 11:05:50 AM
Sounds like the alternator is shot.
In the owner manual says, dashboard charging indicator light, , " If this light comes on when the engine is running, the battery is not being charged. For complete information see page 360. " Goes on to say, " This indicator should come on when the ignition switch is ON (II) and go out after the engine starts. If it comes on brightly when the engine is running...... it indicates that the charging system has stopped charging the battery. "

It comes on when I turn the ignition switch and it goes out after I start the engine . " If it comes on brightly when the engine is running, it indicates that the charging system has stopped charging the battery. " Does not do this, so I assume alternator is good and working properly?
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: TnTkr on September 16, 2020, 11:32:00 AM
With this information I wouldn't deem alternator kaput. I don't have expereience on GD Jazz alternator, but in some other cars the voltage changes when regulator does its job. It can be below 13V now and in next moment 14V when the battery needs charging. To see this happening you can put some load on the system, e.g. switch on the ventilation fan to full speed, switch on headlights and if you have any electric heating for rear window and seats.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 16, 2020, 11:43:47 AM
OK thanks.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: culzean on September 16, 2020, 02:10:04 PM
Sounds like the alternator is shot.
In the owner manual says, dashboard charging indicator light, , " If this light comes on when the engine is running, the battery is not being charged. For complete information see page 360. " Goes on to say, " This indicator should come on when the ignition switch is ON (II) and go out after the engine starts. If it comes on brightly when the engine is running...... it indicates that the charging system has stopped charging the battery. "

It comes on when I turn the ignition switch and it goes out after I start the engine . " If it comes on brightly when the engine is running, it indicates that the charging system has stopped charging the battery. " Does not do this, so I assume alternator is good and working properly?

I also think alternator is shot - the warning light only comes on if the alternator output is missing ( like a wire come off or drive belt snapped )- if the most you ever get is 13 volts either charging control module is kaput or you have lost more than one diode.

If the alternator is not supplying at least 14.5 volts to the battery with headlights on then 'Houston, we have a problem'..... 

The level of charge in the battery will get lower and lower and soon you will get that clicky noise when you try to start the car.....
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: sparky Paul on September 17, 2020, 10:28:53 AM
These little things are so handy

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AccuSpark-LED-12-volt-Battery-and-Alternator-Tester/171874209006
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 21, 2020, 01:37:19 PM
Hi,people,
Just an update, went up to trustworthy garage, who look after the Jazz for MOT etc. Has been doing cars for 30 years, said if battery light goes out when start, rev to 2500 and if battery goes to 14V, then alternator is good, will let you know result.
Cheers.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: sparky Paul on September 21, 2020, 02:40:45 PM
Just an update, went up to trustworthy garage, who look after the Jazz for MOT etc. Has been doing cars for 30 years, said if battery light goes out when start, rev to 2500 and if battery goes to 14V, then alternator is good, will let you know result.

That's fine, but do that with the headlights on. The load detector will affect it otherwise.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 21, 2020, 06:11:43 PM
OK sure, will try and do this sometime, Tuesday
Full beam or just on?
Cheers :)
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: Jocko on September 21, 2020, 06:29:13 PM
It doesn't matter. When I set my ScanGauge to monitor battery voltage, it jumps from about 13.8 volts to 14.6 volts as I switch the lights on, then returns to about 13.8 volts shortly after I switch them off.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 21, 2020, 06:42:31 PM
OK.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 22, 2020, 09:25:13 AM
It doesn't matter. When I set my ScanGauge to monitor battery voltage, it jumps from about 13.8 volts to 14.6 volts as I switch the lights on, then returns to about 13.8 volts shortly after I switch them off.
Earlier this morning,
I put the new battery on the charger, to make sure was 100% recharged.
Ignition off, battery  = 13.75V
Start engine goes up to 15V
Rev engine at 2500 same or a touch above 15V
Rev engine with headlights, blower on, 15V
Turn off headlights, blower off, rev engine = 15V.
Turn off ignition, battery = 13.5/14V
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: culzean on September 22, 2020, 09:45:56 AM
The 15 volts ( if your meter is accurate ) is too much and that voltage would fry the battery,  but the 13.5 to 14 volts with engine not running says to me that you voltmeter is reading at least 0.7 / 0.8 volts high.... ( hopefully ).
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: Jocko on September 22, 2020, 11:13:58 AM
It sounds like you have dodged a bullet. Charging the battery somewhat masked the effect of the load monitor adjusting the charging voltage, but it looks like the charging system is okay.
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: zeusmc on September 22, 2020, 11:55:33 AM
It sounds like you have dodged a bullet. Charging the battery somewhat masked the effect of the load monitor adjusting the charging voltage, but it looks like the charging system is okay.
Just contacted the trustworthy mechanic, who looks after car, sorts MOTs for several years, says alternator, charging system, is absolutely fine, perfectly OK.
So thanks people, for the input, time and advice, appreciated. If I do happen to conk out, will let forum know.
All good :)
Title: Re: Car Dead After Putting New Battery In
Post by: sparky Paul on September 22, 2020, 08:32:31 PM
Sounds like a thumbs up  8)