Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums

Honda Jazz, HR-V & Hybrid Forums => Honda Jazz Mk3 2015 - 2020 => Topic started by: Derkie54 on June 30, 2020, 12:18:52 PM

Title: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: Derkie54 on June 30, 2020, 12:18:52 PM
My rear brake pads stick after wet weather occasionally, as I reverse off the drive you can hear them releasing themselves from the disc with a slight crack.

Is this a feature of the Jazz or is it because I'm not using the car daily at the moment for obvious reasons and leaving it on the drive and the damp weather is the cause.

Not a big problem but it would be nice to elimate it if possible.

This used to happen on a VW I had but it had drums at the rear whereas the Jazz has discs all around.

Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: Jocko on June 30, 2020, 02:06:08 PM
That happens with most disc brakes. My Jazz is particularly prone. If I put the car in the garage after driving in rain, the next time I bring it out the pads are well stuck especially if it has been sitting a couple of days.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: Downsizer on June 30, 2020, 02:18:13 PM
If it bothers you, why not just leave the car in gear and leave the handbrake off?
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: TnTkr on June 30, 2020, 02:52:44 PM
This raises a question: Are we talking about parking brake pads or service brake pads? I am asking because service brake pads can stick too. Brake discs can get visible rust in a day if the weather is wet, and some pads grip with the rust more easily than others.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: culzean on June 30, 2020, 03:01:21 PM
This raises a question: Are we talking about parking brake pads or service brake pads? I am asking because service brake pads can stick too. Brake discs can get visible rust in a day if the weather is wet, and some pads grip with the rust more easily than others.

Only one set of brake pads per side, same pads for park or normal brakes...

It is quite normal for pads to stick to disc on many cars if parked with wet brakes.  My biggest gripe about rear discs is that they are unnecessary on small cars and need more maintenance than rear drums because everything is exposed and rear brakes get all the water and crud thrown up by front wheels. Rear brake shoes easily last 100,000 miles and make a better handbrake than discs.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: TnTkr on June 30, 2020, 03:34:36 PM
It is quite normal for pads to stick to disc on many cars if parked with wet brakes.  My biggest gripe about rear discs is that they are unnecessary on small cars and need more maintenance than rear drums because everything is exposed and rear brakes get all the water and crud thrown up by front wheels. Rear brake shoes easily last 100,000 miles and make a better handbrake than discs.

Exactly my toughts! I see no point in rear disc brakes on a street car.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: John Ratsey on June 30, 2020, 04:52:13 PM
Exactly my toughts! I see no point in rear disc brakes on a street car.
So why do Honda use rear disc brakes and not drums? Saving 2kg(?) on the vehicle weight? Slightly narrower so less intrusion on potential passenger space?
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: Derkie54 on June 30, 2020, 04:56:16 PM
Thanks for the replies, I'll just forget about it, seems to be fairly common and on other makes.
I thought it worth sharing on the forum, then we all learn something.......thank you.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: culzean on June 30, 2020, 05:55:53 PM
If it bothers you, why not just leave the car in gear and leave the handbrake off?

If our driveway was flat I would happily leave handbrake off at home,  but with a 35 degree slope it is not really an option ( except if I went to trouble of chocking the wheels and remove chocks before using car :(
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: madasafish on June 30, 2020, 06:25:47 PM
As i drive an auto, I ignore the handbrake when garage parking with a wet car...
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: Downsizer on July 01, 2020, 09:30:25 AM
Exactly my toughts! I see no point in rear disc brakes on a street car.
So why do Honda use rear disc brakes and not drums? Saving 2kg(?) on the vehicle weight? Slightly narrower so less intrusion on potential passenger space?
I seem to remember that many years ago "All-round disc brakes" was a strong marketing message, so I suppose fitting them only to the front was seen as penny-pinching.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: plasma on July 01, 2020, 09:44:34 AM
This raises a question: Are we talking about parking brake pads or service brake pads? I am asking because service brake pads can stick too. Brake discs can get visible rust in a day if the weather is wet, and some pads grip with the rust more easily than others.

Only one set of brake pads per side, same pads for park or normal brakes...

It is quite normal for pads to stick to disc on many cars if parked with wet brakes.  My biggest gripe about rear discs is that they are unnecessary on small cars and need more maintenance than rear drums because everything is exposed and rear brakes get all the water and crud thrown up by front wheels. Rear brake shoes easily last 100,000 miles and make a better handbrake than discs.


Good post, and yes thats what I find.

Plasma.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: TnTkr on July 01, 2020, 11:51:40 AM
Exactly my toughts! I see no point in rear disc brakes on a street car.
So why do Honda use rear disc brakes and not drums? Saving 2kg(?) on the vehicle weight? Slightly narrower so less intrusion on potential passenger space?

I suppose main reasons are rear drum brakes seen somehow old fashioned and disc brakes being better suited to operation with electronic driving disturbance systems (e.g. stability assist) operating rear brakes without driver's intention. Drum brakes are more prone to fading than disc brakes and provide more linear braking force.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: jazzaro on July 01, 2020, 12:23:40 PM

I suppose main reasons are rear drum brakes seen somehow old fashioned and disc brakes being better suited to operation with electronic driving disturbance systems (e.g. stability assist) operating rear brakes without driver's intention. Drum brakes are more prone to fading than disc brakes and provide more linear braking force.
Right suppositions.
1- Drums look cheap (better, they look and they are cheap).
2- Rear brakes are the first to be used by ESP to correct understeer (there are more steps, first only internal rear brake, second both internal brakes, third both front and internal...)  so driving fast in mountain roads rear brakes could heat very much.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: madasafish on July 01, 2020, 01:18:21 PM
I suspect the Jazz weight distribution with a petrol tank under the floor - which no other car of its size has as far as I know -  and anti dive suspension  may play a part in the decision kaming on rear brake choice..
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: TnTkr on July 01, 2020, 01:27:47 PM
I suspect the Jazz weight distribution with a petrol tank under the floor - which no other car of its size has as far as I know -  and anti dive suspension  may play a part in the decision kaming on rear brake choice..

The very same GK Jazz/Fit has been with rear drum brakes in other market areas (e.g. North America, which has only 130 hp version). I'd guess it's more about fashion and maybe AHA (Agile Handling Assist) system, which loads rear brakes.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: Ed the Jazz on July 11, 2020, 10:37:02 PM
Brake pads 'sticking on' after washing the car or after rain was an issue with my 2004 Jazz and my 2016. On a night my car is garaged with hand brake off and in Park. Front and back pads will 'stick' certainly overnight and release with a 'crack'! Once driven a few hundred yards pafs run free. Just one of those things. Honda tried to stop this on CB750 motorbike by using chromed discs - worked but swine when the chrome worn.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: Jocko on July 11, 2020, 11:03:42 PM
Sometimes if the car has been put away after driving in heavy rain, and left for two or three days, it feels like I am trying to drive out the garage with the handbrake engaged. The crack when it frees up is loud. Even my wife, standing outside the garage, has said: "What was that".
With regards chromed discs on bikes, they look great but are less efficient in the wet, and as you said, once the chrome starts to go...............
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: TnTkr on July 12, 2020, 05:58:33 AM
Sticking brake pads after wash or rain is quite normal behaviour for disc brakes. Pad has slight contact with the disc all the time and rust bonds them together. The only thing to pull pad away from the disc is piston seal, but that is depending on the seal design.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: sparky Paul on July 12, 2020, 01:29:17 PM
Sticking brake pads after wash or rain is quite normal behaviour for disc brakes. Pad has slight contact with the disc all the time and rust bonds them together. The only thing to pull pad away from the disc is piston seal, but that is depending on the seal design.

The rear handbrake is actually a mechanical arrangement that positively winds the piston back in a little as the handbrake is released. However, the pads are not securely attached to the pistons...

The Jazz rear calipers do seem to be more prone than most to this disc handbrake 'sticking'.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: TnTkr on July 12, 2020, 01:33:59 PM
The rear handbrake is actually a mechanical arrangement that positively winds the piston back in a little as the handbrake is released. However, the pads are not securely attached to the pistons...

The Jazz rear calipers do seem to be more prone than most to this disc handbrake 'sticking'.

That is interesting information. I need to study the mechanism deeper to see how that is made.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: John Ratsey on July 12, 2020, 06:38:16 PM
With regards chromed discs on bikes, they look great but are less efficient in the wet, and as you said, once the chrome starts to go...............
The brake discs on my bike look like stainless steel.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: culzean on July 13, 2020, 07:21:53 AM
With regards chromed discs on bikes, they look great but are less efficient in the wet, and as you said, once the chrome starts to go...............
The brake discs on my bike look like stainless steel.

To be fair the discs on my motorbike look like stainless as well,  but the rear wheel has a disc almost the size rear one on the Jazz, and the front wheel has two large ones as well - so roughly 2/3  the braking area of a Jazz on something that weighs less than 200Kg  - but with less tyre area in contact with the road ( bike also has ABS ) - so friction not so important.  Because of limited space for discs on a small car that has maybe 14" wheels as an option they have to use plain steel or cast iron to get better friction ( and a slightly rusty surface has more friction than a clean one ).
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: Rory on July 13, 2020, 10:38:35 AM
On both of our mk2's we had the rear disks and pads replace at around 3yrs old.  First one was really just because they looked terrible as they'd gone so rusty - I understand Honda and the dealer (now defunct, sadly) covered the cost between them.  Supposedly they upped the rear brake bias on later models.

On our newer mk2, one of the inner pads stuck and wore away.  Honda not interested and new dealer delighted in taking 300 off daughter to replace the discs and pads (and that was after two visits as they couldn't identify the noise first visit, sending her away saying the car was fine).
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: jazzaro on July 13, 2020, 10:54:05 AM
With regards chromed discs on bikes, they look great but are less efficient in the wet, and as you said, once the chrome starts to go...............
The brake discs on my bike look like stainless steel.

To be fair the discs on my motorbike look like stainless as well,  but the rear wheel has a disc almost the size rear one on the Jazz, and the front wheel has two large ones as well - so roughly 2/3  the braking area of a Jazz on something that weighs less than 200Kg  - but with less tyre area in contact with the road ( bike also has ABS ) - so friction not so important.  Because of limited space for discs on a small car that has maybe 14" wheels as an option they have to use plain steel or cast iron to get better friction ( and a slightly rusty surface has more friction than a clean one ).
Car brake discs are all in cast iron (low carbon percentage), apart from some supercars with carbon-carbon or carbon-ceramic composite. Some discs for karting and motorbikes are made in steel, but it's not frequent. Steel is lighter than cast iron, but it works at higher temperatures so you have to increase pressure to the lever and pads last less kilometers.
Bike discs are different in shape and structure from car discs. They are drilled, both for better cooling but also to increase friction and so to remove the hard skin on pads after kilometers of very gentle usage. A bike is light, so you don't need a huge pressure on the lever, so it can happen that a very hard skin like glass creates on pads surface, with a low friction coefficient: holes on the disc help to avoid this skin creation.
Car discs are very thicker, the pressure sent to pads is much higher considering servo and the pedal lever. So discs must be more robust (and cast iron is more robust than steel at high temperature), and can be casted with a internal duct to vent and cool them.
The rust on the friction surface is standard in wet climate and does not affects functionality. After the first brake pressure the surface becomes clean again.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: Rory on July 14, 2020, 10:14:24 AM

The rust on the friction surface is standard in wet climate and does not affects functionality. After the first brake pressure the surface becomes clean again.

They can be made to be rust resistant - GM do it in the US as they were getting so many customer complaints.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: malcolmgb on August 25, 2020, 11:06:27 PM
With regards chromed discs on bikes, they look great but are less efficient in the wet, and as you said, once the chrome starts to go...............
The brake discs on my bike look like stainless steel.

Yes they would be stainless steel, chrome plated would be dangerous, stainless was used for cosmetic reasons nobody would want to see rusty exposed metal on a shiney motorbike. Stainless is hopeless as a braking medium especially in the rain, don't ask how I know  ;)
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: culzean on August 26, 2020, 08:22:02 AM
With regards chromed discs on bikes, they look great but are less efficient in the wet, and as you said, once the chrome starts to go...............
The brake discs on my bike look like stainless steel.

Yes they would be stainless steel, chrome plated would be dangerous, stainless was used for cosmetic reasons nobody would want to see rusty exposed metal on a shiney motorbike. Stainless is hopeless as a braking medium especially in the rain, don't ask how I know  ;)

The brake area on motorbikes with twin disc at front and single at rear is much larger compared to weight of vehicle than on a car. Sure the non-servo brakes have lower pad pressure but still a bike typically weighs less than 200kg and a light car over 1000kg, and more with passengers and luggage.  The engine braking on my Suzuki V twin ( a 90degree V twin not that horrible 45deg V twin used in Hardly-Davidsons that shakes your eyeballs out ) is so good I rarely need to use brakes anyway except at low speed. Bike discs are always perforated as well to get rid of water and gas and are better cooled than the ones on cars. Anyway, I never ride in the rain by choice.  On the heavier cruisers you need to make an appointment to brake anyway as they are very heavy and some only have a single disc up front - but then again you probably have a 1300cc+ twin engine (but maybe not even  60bhp ) and engine braking is pretty good. Some cruisers 1800cc twins nowadays.
Title: Re: Sticking Rear Brake Pads
Post by: culzean on August 26, 2020, 11:43:33 AM
With regards chromed discs on bikes, they look great but are less efficient in the wet, and as you said, once the chrome starts to go...............
The brake discs on my bike look like stainless steel.

Yes they would be stainless steel, chrome plated would be dangerous, stainless was used for cosmetic reasons nobody would want to see rusty exposed metal on a shiney motorbike. Stainless is hopeless as a braking medium especially in the rain, don't ask how I know  ;)

The brake area on motorbikes with twin disc at front and single at rear is much larger compared to weight of vehicle than on a car. Sure the non-servo brakes have lower pad pressure ( or have they because most front brake calipers on bikes are either two cylinder or four cylinder calipers compared to single cylinder on cars) but still a bike typically weighs less than 200kg and a light car over 1000kg, and more with passengers and luggage.  The engine braking on my Suzuki V twin ( a 90degree V twin not that horrible 45deg V twin used in Hardly-Davidsons that shakes your eyeballs out ) is so good I rarely need to use brakes anyway except at low speed. Bike discs are always perforated as well to get rid of water and gas and are better cooled than the ones on cars. Anyway, I never ride in the rain by choice.  On the heavier cruisers you need to make an appointment to brake anyway as they are very heavy and some only have a single disc up front - but then again you probably have a 1300cc+ twin engine (but maybe not even  60bhp ) and engine braking is pretty good. Some cruisers 1800cc twins nowadays.