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Honda Jazz, HR-V & Hybrid Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: RichardA on December 08, 2019, 11:27:02 AM

Title: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: RichardA on December 08, 2019, 11:27:02 AM
(http://clubjazz.org/images/attach/jazz2020.jpg)

Press release for the Mk4 Honda Jazz due in 2020:

https://hondanews.eu/gb/en/cars/media/pressreleases/194431/all-new-jazz-leads-electrification-charge-for-honda

More information will added here when available.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: jazzaro on December 09, 2019, 07:35:49 PM
Waiting for tech specs..
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: langserve on December 24, 2019, 12:06:18 PM
Had to visit the dealer for a 6 month check up yesterday and picked up the brochure. I don't really see anything that makes me regret deciding to buy one of the last Mk3s of the production run. The body looks fine but it isn't really any different and if the rear looks more like a Mk1 in my opinion so good but nothing terribly exciting. The interior is good and the visibility even more impressive. And the colour schemes? Well I'll let you decide but I think its more a pitch to the young woman market than the duffer market.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: peteo48 on December 24, 2019, 02:16:41 PM
Waiting for tech specs..

Fuel consumption will be interesting given the new hybrid set up. My Mk3 is not great on fuel consumption although that is mostly down to short stop/start journeys in cold wet weather. I haven't seen 50 mpg as a long term average since my VW Golf TDI and that was a 2005 model.

I know one or two people who have the hybrid Yaris and that gets significantly better mpg than the Jazz in the urban environment. On the open road, much less so.

I'd be interested in a Mk4.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: langserve on December 25, 2019, 03:01:03 AM
No technical details I am afraid - anything but! Anyway, FWIW here is the page dealing with e:HEV. From what I can make out it claims to be the first HEV drive of its kind available in a small car. In the diagrams orange is mechanical energy and blue is electrical energy. The box at the top is the petrol engine and the box in the middle is the electric motors. There are three modes. Electric only, engine generates electricity and that electricity powers motors rather like a diesel electric train and finally conventional engine drives wheels. They say that the vast majority of daily driving will be in electric mode - longer and faster journeys will need mode 2 and 3 respectively. It will also be available in 4WD for people living in Hokkaido and such places which are covered in snow for 3 months of the year. Here I think it will be available in all models except basic but it will cost quite a lot extra. And that's what puts me off - I only do about 4,500 miles a year tops so I don't believe it is worth it. I haven't actually done the calculations though.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: nigelr on January 10, 2020, 12:03:27 PM
Will be very interested to see how efficient the new power train is.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: jazzaro on January 14, 2020, 09:31:13 AM
No technical details I am afraid - anything but! Anyway, FWIW here is the page dealing with e:HEV. From what I can make out it claims to be the first HEV drive of its kind available in a small car.
No, Toyota Yaris is already avaiable with a E-CVT hybrid system. Jazz is the first small car for Honda with a full hybrid E-CVT powertrain.
Quote
In the diagrams orange is mechanical energy and blue is electrical energy. The box at the top is the petrol engine and the box in the middle is the electric motors. There are three modes. Electric only, engine generates electricity and that electricity powers motors rather like a diesel electric train and finally conventional engine drives wheels. They say that the vast majority of daily driving will be in electric mode - longer and faster journeys will need mode 2 and 3 respectively. It will also be available in 4WD for people living in Hokkaido and such places which are covered in snow for 3 months of the year. Here I think it will be available in all models except basic but it will cost quite a lot extra. And that's what puts me off - I only do about 4,500 miles a year tops so I don't believe it is worth it. I haven't actually done the calculations though.
Jazz has always been avaiable in 4WD for japanese domestic market, such as Toyota Yaris and many other models. Most of them are not exported, in Europe we had only Subaru Justy, Suzuki Swift and Suzuki Wagon R+ offered also in 4WD. Present Jazz, called Fit in JDM, is sold with 1.3, 1.5, 1.5Hybrid I-DCD and each engine can have 4WD, both with manual or CVT gearbox (except the Hybrid sold only with the dual clutch gearbox).
Easily the Fit 4WD will have a similar  scheme to the CR-V.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: peteo48 on January 14, 2020, 11:27:57 AM
My understanding is that the new transmission is NOT a CVT but something completely different. I gather the driving experience will be more like that of an electric car most, if not all of which, have a single reduction gear.

In short they are claiming a significant technological advance from Toyota's system.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Downsizer on January 14, 2020, 12:45:37 PM
My understanding is that the new transmission is NOT a CVT but something completely different. I gather the driving experience will be more like that of an electric car most, if not all of which, have a single reduction gear.

In short they are claiming a significant technological advance from Toyota's system.
That's right, but it depends how you define the word "transmission".  There will be no mechanical gear ratio changes.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jocko on January 14, 2020, 01:13:38 PM
The definition of Continuously Variable Transmission is what matters here, and in most drivers minds, especially with regards to the Jazz, CVT is recognised as a belt drive, step-less, mechanical transmission.
However, in engineering their are many varieties of Continuously Variable Transmission, as can be gleaned from this Wiki entry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission)
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: sparky Paul on January 14, 2020, 03:13:36 PM
There's no gearbox at all on the eCVT system, the engine switches between two modes - driving an alternator which charges the battery and/or drives the electric motor at low speeds, and a second mode via a clutch direct to the drivetrain via a single mechanical ratio for higher speed driving.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: peteo48 on January 14, 2020, 03:57:21 PM
That's what I understand sparky. The CVT on a hybrid Yaris is like the CVT on the current or Mk2 Jazz - the ratios change. The new Jazz has nothing in common, in terms of transmission, with the Toyota set up as seen on all their hybrid cars. Honda claim it is a completely new concept in a small car and I think they are justified in doing so.

I am looking forward to my test drive!
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: sparky Paul on January 14, 2020, 07:09:19 PM
The new Jazz has nothing in common, in terms of transmission, with the Toyota set up as seen on all their hybrid cars. Honda claim it is a completely new concept in a small car and I think they are justified in doing so.

I am looking forward to my test drive!

The system seems to work well in the CR-V, if the Jazz is using the same.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: peteo48 on January 14, 2020, 10:18:20 PM
Just a random thought and almost certainly not original but are we on the cusp of seeing manual transmissions start a long decline and, to be fair, CVT's and conventional automatics?
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jocko on January 14, 2020, 10:26:09 PM
I think that will be the case. BEVs do not require a gearbox and hybrids are moving that way too. Having driven automatics (buses and cars) for 25 years, my recent return to a manual transmission has confirmed what a PITA a manual vehicle is.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: jazzaro on January 15, 2020, 10:14:37 AM
That's what I understand sparky. The CVT on a hybrid Yaris is like the CVT on the current or Mk2 Jazz - the ratios change. The new Jazz has nothing in common, in terms of transmission, with the Toyota set up as seen on all their hybrid cars. Honda claim it is a completely new concept in a small car and I think they are justified in doing so.
Definetly no.
The E-CVT in hybrid yaris is the same of all other toyota hybrids, only size and battery type change: the petrol engine is always linked to the wheels through an epicliclic gear called PSD, power split device, where each of the carriers has the ability to rotate in its own unique way, providing a wide range of power options. The “Ring” carrier is sometimes powered by the battery-pack to provide the ability to drive using only electricity (both forward & backward), allowing the engine to stop running to save gas. At other times, the “Ring” carrier creates power, regenerating electricity when you use the brakes. The “Planet” carrier is powered by the petrol engine, which causes rotation of both the car’s wheels (for driving forward) and the “Sun” carrier (for generating electricity). And while the
“Planet” & “Sun” carriers are spinning, the “Ring” carrier can join in to provide additional thrust to the wheels or to allow engine RPM to be reduced. Lastly, the “Sun” carrier is also used for starting the engine.  It's  a sort of
 asymmetrical differential, because about 70% of the petrol engine power goes to wheels, the other 30% is directed to a small electric machine working as a motor (in both directions) but also as a generator, depending from the ECU. The other bigger electric machine is directly connected tho wheels, but it's the small one, connected to the sun gear, that set the "ratio" between the petrol engine and the wheels. In some old pics you can see a sort of chain inside this device, but it's only a chain connecting the ring gear with the final drive.
So the whole system works as a belt CVT, even if there are no belts inside. The same for the Honda I-MMD, working as a belt CVT but without belts; so both belong to the CVT transmission family, using wires and no belts, and that's why we cannot say that the Honda system is the first ECVT in the small car segment: both toy and honda are E-CVT without belts and pulleys, and Toy already sells a small ecvt hybrid car.

EDIT This is a simulator of the Toyota PSD (open it in Firefox because Chrome will close flash), Mg1 is the small motogenerator, Mg2 is the main electric motor connected directly with the wheels, ICE is the petrol engine: you can see how the vehicle speed (MG2) changes not following ICE and MG1 and, keeping ICE fixed, how the speed changes by MG1.
http://eahart.com/prius/psd/
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jonnybananas on March 16, 2020, 08:55:24 PM
This may be old news but the new Honda Jazz Hybrid 21YM Owner's Manual seems to be available on the Honda website.

https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/owners/manuals-and-guides/honda-owners-manuals.html

The Jazz in the photo on that page is still the old MK3 Jazz but looking at the 21YM Owner's Manual PDF it's definitely the new 2020 Jazz Hybrid.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: John Ratsey on March 17, 2020, 08:39:48 AM
Some points arising from a quick look through the manual:
I've primarily looked to see if features on the Mk. 3 which have annoyed me have been fixed.

There is, as expected, nowhere for a spare wheel.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Downsizer on March 17, 2020, 09:50:18 AM
It seems that someone in Honda has been reading your comments John!
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: jazzaro on March 17, 2020, 03:54:57 PM
Good link!
Page 547, this Jazz will have a gasoline particulate filter so the engine will use only  0W20 oil Acea C2 or C5.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: JazzandJag on April 01, 2020, 08:39:22 AM
Configurator now live on the honda.co.uk website
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jonnybananas on April 01, 2020, 12:16:42 PM
Interesting… having checked the specs for the Jazz Crosstar EX there is no mention of 'Blind Spot Information incl. Cross Traffic Monitor' - it is only mentioned in the Jazz EX specs.  However, the information from the Honda UK Media Newsroom website states 'Blind Spot Information, complete with Cross Traffic Monitor is standard on Executive grades'

Hopefully it’s a typo in the specs and not a cost cutting exercise  :(
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: John Ratsey on April 01, 2020, 07:03:53 PM
I want a vehicle that's easy to find in a car park and the only colour which meets that requirement is Surf Blue.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jocko on April 01, 2020, 09:30:41 PM
But that is only available on the Crosstar.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: John Ratsey on April 01, 2020, 09:46:26 PM
But that is only available on the Crosstar.
True. Fortunately that's the version which most interests me as it claims to have a slightly higher ride height than the normal Jazz (one of the attractions of my current HR-V).
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: dfconnolly on April 16, 2020, 03:07:40 AM
There are two videos of the jazz on YouTube being inspected and then road tested in what looks like snowy Japan......



The driving footage lacks any commentary and there is a lot of road noise due to slushy conditions.

A few things apparent.

The engine sounds coarsec when the accelerator is floored.

The suspension appears to thud harshly over potholes

There are some annoying audible warning alarm sounds

Not sure if the indicator stalk is on the right? Maybe just a Japanese or Eastern territory thing

Happy viewing

Dave C
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Downsizer on April 16, 2020, 09:33:05 AM
Thanks for these links.  I notice the car is 4WD - appropriate for that snow!
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: jazzaro on April 17, 2020, 10:07:45 AM
No upper cover for the luggage compartment, the capacity looks similar to the present generation, apart the little step near the rear seat.
Electric lock for the fuel door.
Many parts in common with the present generation, both in cabin and in engine compartment.
Still noisy wiper motor, especially with the engine not running.
I cannot evaluate the NVH, but the engine seems to be quite during normal driving.
I don'l like this steering wheel
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jocko on April 17, 2020, 10:36:02 AM
Looking at the dual image here https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/jazz-hybrid/overview.html (https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/jazz-hybrid/overview.html) and there does not appear to be any appreciable difference in height between the Jazz and the Crosstar.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: John Ratsey on April 17, 2020, 12:08:55 PM
Looking at the dual image here https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/jazz-hybrid/overview.html (https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/jazz-hybrid/overview.html) and there does not appear to be any appreciable difference in height between the Jazz and the Crosstar.
I think that whoever created that graphic was a bit lazy.

The detailed specs show that the Crosstar has slightly larger dimensions than the SE (I didn't check the others):
Length: 4090 vs 4044 mm (probably different plastic on front and back)
Width: 1725 vs 1694 mm (bits of plastic on the sides)
Height: 1556 vs 1526 mm
Ground clearance (driver only): 152 vs 136 mm

These numbers suggest that the suspension of the Crosstar is raised by 16mm. It's unclear if the overall height includes / excludes the roof rails. Could the rails be as low as 14mm above the normal roof? If the height doesn't include the rails then it's likely that the body (and the seats) are 30mm higher in the Crosstar than the normal Jazz.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: porew on April 17, 2020, 12:15:13 PM
Some months ago I was told in my local Honda dealership that Crosstar is 2cm higher and that it's achieved by a different setup on the suspension/spring level... the figures in techspecs say 3cm difference, so let's see in reality :)
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Pine on April 17, 2020, 01:59:30 PM
Some months ago I was told in my local Honda dealership that Crosstar is 2cm higher and that it's achieved by a different setup on the suspension/spring level... the figures in techspecs say 3cm difference, so let's see in reality :)
Plus 1cm for the roof rails?
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Austriaman on August 15, 2020, 10:37:19 PM
Had to visit the dealer for a 6 month check up yesterday and picked up the brochure. I don't really see anything that makes me regret deciding to buy one of the last Mk3s of the production run. The body looks fine but it isn't really any different and if the rear looks more like a Mk1 in my opinion so good but nothing terribly exciting. The interior is good and the visibility even more impressive. And the colour schemes? Well I'll let you decide but I think its more a pitch to the young woman market than the duffer market.
The big pull is the way the new Jazz drives. It's powerful, so smooth and seamless. It was the drive that sold me.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: John Ratsey on August 16, 2020, 03:56:02 PM
Plus 1cm for the roof rails?
Seeing this reminded me to get out my tape measure and a spirit level. I measured the highest part of the roof rails on one side to be 1560mm and the other side 1590mm (my old tarmac parking place isn't flat) which gives an average to the top of the rails as 1575mm. The highest part of the roof is in the middle and is about 25mm below the top of the roof rails, ie 1550mm (the rails are about 48mm higher than the sides of the roof). Honda give the Crosstar height as 1556mm so that's evidently the vehicle height excluding the rails.

The big pull is the way the new Jazz drives. It's powerful, so smooth and seamless. It was the drive that sold me.
It's the effortless power under my normal driving conditions that I like. Earlier Jazzes have the power provided the engine is revved but the Mk. 4 will shift off the line with a gentle touch of the accelerator and is also very responsive to slight changes in the accelerator position.

While the brake hold feature is very useful, it leaves me wondering where to put my right foot while waiting to move because, if I touch the accelerator then the vehicle will move.

Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Kenneve on September 06, 2020, 09:45:26 PM
Hi Guys
One question that my dealer does not seem to be able to answer is: How does the transmission react when descending a very steep hill, one where in a manual gearbox car, you would maybe change down to 3rd or even 2nd gear to provide engine braking.

You may Say,  in the ‘B’ drive position the car would attempt to charge the battery, but what if the battery is already fully charged?  I can’t imagine the the braking resistance generated by charging the battery is anything like what would be generated by the engine in a low gear.

As I understand it, the engine directly drives the generator without any gear reduction.

I don’t think think I would like to descend Porlock hill or some of the Devon banks, relying entirely of the brakes, or am I just old fashioned?
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jocko on September 06, 2020, 10:05:35 PM
Someone in another thread said that the motor/generator tries to turn the engine and this provides the engine braking.

I have driven The Pass of the Cattle on several occasions, in an automatic, and never felt the need to come out of Drive.
Modern brakes will cope with any steep descent in the UK without overheating or fading.

(https://www.visitwester-ross.com/userfiles/image/big_5/_med/bealach.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d8/1f/88/d81f889b300063cf71711b7b0365cf0a.jpg)
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Kenneve on September 06, 2020, 10:44:53 PM
Hi Jocko

From the photos shown, that is certainly the sort of hill I’m talking about.
In my Mk3 I would certainly flick the paddle to change down to a lower gear, aa it would reduce the breaking effort required and of course the unnecessary  wear.
As I understand it , there aren’t any paddles on the Mk4, so you must rely entirely on your brakes, which as an old school driver I would not be happy with.
Many years ago, I did experience total brake failure, not something I would like to repeat!
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: hotweiss on October 03, 2020, 09:12:51 PM
Hi Guys
One question that my dealer does not seem to be able to answer is: How does the transmission react when descending a very steep hill, one where in a manual gearbox car, you would maybe change down to 3rd or even 2nd gear to provide engine braking.

You may Say,  in the ‘B’ drive position the car would attempt to charge the battery, but what if the battery is already fully charged?  I can’t imagine the the braking resistance generated by charging the battery is anything like what would be generated by the engine in a low gear.

As I understand it, the engine directly drives the generator without any gear reduction.

I don’t think think I would like to descend Porlock hill or some of the Devon banks, relying entirely of the brakes, or am I just old fashioned?

That is what B is for. B is for engine break not battery.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jocko on October 03, 2020, 09:43:57 PM
That is what B is for. B is for engine break not battery.
Drive B. Used when driving down a long hill and to increase regenerative braking
From page 27 of the manual.
Regenerative braking is not engine braking and is used to charge the battery.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: hotweiss on October 03, 2020, 10:09:01 PM
OK, I was told that B is used for descending down hills. I had it on my Lexus CT...
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Roman on November 03, 2020, 02:04:42 PM
Actualy Jazz MK4 do use engine braking, after battery full on downhill i hear engine started, as i understand system uses energy that regenerated throught 109 hp motor to spin smaller motor-generator with connected to it gasoline engine, or instead system simple connecting engine to wells using cluth.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Westy36 on November 03, 2020, 07:58:39 PM
I have driven The Pass of the Cattle on several occasions

What a fantastic road that is. Been lucky enough to drive that a 4 times over the years. Unforgettable drive  :D
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: madasafish on December 26, 2020, 09:34:24 AM
"Plough lane
I purchased the new Honda Jazz Hybrid a few weeks ago. It is very refined and averages 70mpg but I am going to part-exchange it because of the Road Departure Mitigation System (RDMS). This feature will take control of the steering should you get close to the left-hand side of the road, and move the car to the centre. It might be OK for drunk drivers, or those who cannot concentrate for more than a few seconds, but for me, who drives 80 per cent  of the time in the narrow roads of the Lincolnshire Wolds, this feature is dangerous. I live in a farming community, so when I take a left-hand turn I get close to the edge as, more often than not, a very wide agricultural vehicle will be coming in the opposite direction. It can be turned off, but it has to be done for every trip, as it comes on again each time the car is started. If you forget, you could find yourself face-to-face with a combine harvester. I wrote to Honda asking why every other feature has to be turned on, but this one has to be turned off. No reply. The dealer could not help. I will never buy another car with this feature. ME"


"I had a Jazz Crosstar on test and found the same problem. It's very over-active. Any variation in the road surface would cause it to react. It comes on automatically because it is supposed to be a safety feature. Almost every other car now has something similar, but not as intrusively as on the Jazz. The new Toyota Yaris hybrid has a simple switch on the steering wheel to engage or disengage the RDMS. In the Suzuki Swift Sport 48v hybrid, it stays off once switched off and does not come on again after a restart."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/advice/honest-john-will-classic-morgan-christmas-heap-trouble/


If true, I will never buy one- same issues.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Kremmen on December 26, 2020, 09:40:01 AM
I'd just switch it off, same with other things like parts of the auto braking system.

Most Civic 10G owners on Civinfo turn it off and operate the handbrake manually so it doesn't permanently display brake lights at traffic lights and junctions, dazzling drivers behind, but leave brake hold active.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: John Ratsey on December 31, 2020, 11:25:12 AM
It took me a while to figure out how to disable the RDMS but it's not difficult to learn how to suppress that invisible pair of hands trying to turn the steering wheel. While it may be a very useful safety measure for someone falling asleep on a motorway it's a nuisance on smaller roads. Perhaps the next generation of vehicles will add some more intelligence to this function.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: csp on December 31, 2020, 12:21:35 PM
Is there a Menu setting to disable RDMS? It is really annoying in town when driving past bus stop box lines on the road.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: stiggysawdust on January 01, 2021, 12:01:54 PM
When I turn my LKAS off, it stays off. I have to turn mine on when I want it working.
RDMS does indeed turn on when car is started.
Sorry for any confusion.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Mellorshark on January 01, 2021, 02:03:45 PM
When I turn mine off, it stays off. I have to turn mine on when I want it working.

I think there might be some confusion between RDMS which is automatically turned on every time the power system is turned on, and LKAS which can be turned on/off by its switch.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Expatman on January 01, 2021, 02:30:20 PM
Bit confused by this. What does RDMS do and what does LKS do that is different?
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: CoolRaoul on January 01, 2021, 03:09:17 PM
When I turn mine off, it stays off. I have to turn mine on when I want it working
Strange: the user manual states it automatically turns on every time you turn the véhicule on (page 482)
(https://i.imgur.com/yUN7SDo.png)
And that match my experience.

**edit**

Sorry, I didn't noticed this had already been replied two post above.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: ndavey1 on January 01, 2021, 04:57:26 PM
Bit confused by this. What does RDMS do and what does LKS do that is different?
RDMS automatically steers the car back over the line if you go over it, while warning you about departing your lane.
LKAS is a useful feature that automatically steers within the lane, keeping you central. I use LKAS every journey and barely steer at all, letting the car steer for me (while also accelerating and braking for me, using ACC)
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Expatman on January 01, 2021, 05:55:44 PM
Several others have reported that LKAS is dangerous on country roads and in towns because it is too sensitive and can steer the car into danger - meeting a combine harvester on a country lane for example where you want to keep extremely close to the hedge but it forces you into the path of the harvester!
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Roman on January 07, 2021, 01:35:18 PM
I think that RDMS is the problem not the LKAS
And in car setting we have control of it`s sensitivity(Near, Normal, Far) if i not wrong
i remember that i set this to near and RDMS stears every second and because of our road quality after several atempts simple shutting down this function temporarely.
If this annoing there is 2 options
every tyme system power on push button with vehicle pictogramm in circle then disable RDMS from steering well
or changing in car settings sensitivity to Far from near or normal.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Roman on January 07, 2021, 02:07:46 PM

As a reference but in our system less setings for RDMS
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: TiJazz on January 09, 2021, 12:37:13 AM
My understanding is that if a turn signal is on, RDMS will not activate as it assumes you’re making a lane change, so perhaps signal when passing cyclists/tractors etc.

But yes, I agree it is half baked. A feature like this should either be elective (permanent off switch) or have awareness of objects as well as the lines.

LKAS on the other hand is excellent, as with most such systems these days.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Kremmen on January 09, 2021, 03:50:40 AM
I think, like a lot of drivers here it seems, that I would rather make my own decisions.

For example I often drive at 'stupid o'clock' and if I have no vehicles behind me on the motorway and I pull out to overtake I don't indicate because there is no one to tell. The last thing I want is the car beeping away, vibrating the steering wheel or trying to keep me in lane.

I'm going to need a printed pre-flight checklist. I know from Civinfo that a lot turn off something to do with the handbrake system before setting out.


My Civic is due for service in a month and my intention was to take a Crosstar out on a test but I wonder if that's now possible with full lockdown.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: ColinB on January 09, 2021, 07:37:35 AM
... if I have no vehicles behind me on the motorway and I pull out to overtake I don't indicate because there is no one to tell.
Apart, that is, from the vehicle you’re overtaking. He may be about to do exactly the same as you. More of an issue is returning to lane 1 after the overtake. There’s no need to signal then because (a) by definition you’re moving away from the overtaken vehicle and (b) the Highway Code says you move back after overtaking, so that’s what the other driver should be expecting. I often end up indicating unnecessarily simply to avoid having to explain to any passenger why the car has started beeping.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Kremmen on January 09, 2021, 08:54:56 AM
I could/should have fully qualified my post. I did post that this is very early and not on a busy motorway. More often than not we are the only 2 vehicles in sight and I don't leave it till the last second but pull out a few hundred yards in advance. Check my mirrors then drift into the overtaking lane.

I also indicate 100% when pulling back into lane 1. I've got the knack of courtesy indicating just once or twice, not the multiple flashes it auto tries to do when you just flick the lever.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jocko on January 09, 2021, 10:30:24 AM
I also indicate 100% when pulling back into lane 1.
When I did my PCV licence, I was taught not to indicate when returning to the lefthand side and not to indicate when joining from a slip road. The instructor was most insistent on these points.
There are some places where I do signal, such as where the on-ramp continues to become an off-ramp, or where a motorway/dual carriageway splits.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: ColinB on January 09, 2021, 11:00:04 AM
When I did my PCV licence, I was taught not to indicate when returning to the lefthand side and not to indicate when joining from a slip road. The instructor was most insistent on these points.
Ditto when I did my IAM test. The point is that you should signal when it is necessary and helpful to other drivers rather than doing it automatically. But it does depend on circumstances:
- Returning from lane 2 to lane 1 is an expected (even required) manoeuvre so there's no need to signal.
- A signal would be helpful when returning from lane 3 or 4 if there's a vehicle in an inner lane who might be thinking about pulling out
- A signal would be helpful if there's someone coming up behind in my overtake lane to tell him I'm getting out of his way.
All this ensures you're thinking about what's going on rather than just mechanically going through the motions.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: culzean on January 09, 2021, 11:53:52 AM
... if I have no vehicles behind me on the motorway and I pull out to overtake I don't indicate because there is no one to tell.
Apart, that is, from the vehicle you’re overtaking. He may be about to do exactly the same as you. More of an issue is returning to lane 1 after the overtake. There’s no need to signal then because (a) by definition you’re moving away from the overtaken vehicle and (b) the Highway Code says you move back after overtaking, so that’s what the other driver should be expecting. I often end up indicating unnecessarily simply to avoid having to explain to any passenger why the car has started beeping.

Due to increasing willingness for drivers to 'undertake' ( an apt description ) I signal when returning to lane 1 and really check nearside mirror.  I also check nearside mirror when signaling to turn off an Island,  I have had muppets trying to get past on the nearside.  Lane discipline is the key and it is getting to be a lost cause.  I also often pull into centre lane when approaching motorway junctions to allow traffic coming onto motorway a bit more space, as people seem unwilling to allow vehicle in,  there is almost a desperation nowadays about some peoples driving that they are getting more reluctant to stop at junctions with give way signs, when coming onto islands, let people out from side roads etc.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: emmerdale on January 09, 2021, 12:02:18 PM
Could not agree more,even truck drivers are no longer gentlemen of the road, mostly big bully boys
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: ColinS on January 09, 2021, 12:27:58 PM
I also check nearside mirror when signaling to turn off an Island,  I have had muppets trying to get past on the nearside.

Quite agree.  The road users to really look out for are cyclists, especially when turning left as they seem to come up the inside of traffic regardless.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jocko on January 09, 2021, 12:57:36 PM
I use my nearside mirror as often as I use the offside and interior. Again an absolute necessity when driving a bus or coach (I still check for tail swing, even when driving my Jazz!). If I have overtaken a vehicle in lane one, there is little chance of someone undertaking unless he wants to race! I am never in a lane that allows undertaking. I always get into the lefthand lane after overtaking and stay there until I need to overtake again. There are very few sections of motorway in Scotland that have more than two lanes (M8 through Glasgow is one exception). On multi-lane motorways, the lanes are usually marked for different destinations (Scotland again), so you have to treat them as splits, and signal accordingly.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: TiJazz on January 09, 2021, 02:33:57 PM
It’s been years since those of us with IAM qualifications passed their test - mine was back in 2007 for example - so things have probably changed with technology.

The fact is that cars now enforce turn signal use when changing lane, so I signal.

I think the point about checklists is valid though. My MG eZS had a bit of a process to switch on the limiter on start. Thankfully that’s easy on the Jazz (just hit RES) but I find switching between ACC and limiter a bit of a faff after joining or leaving a motorway:

Joining:
LIM until ACC indicator shows
Shift to D
Accelerate to speed then hit SET
LKAS ON

Leaving:
Brake tap to cancel ACC
LKAS OFF
Shift to B
LIM to limiter
RES to set limiter to previous ACC speed
Adjust limiter to minor road speed

In my Tesla, it was:

AP ON

AP OFF

;) I’m a software developer and flight sim Youtuber, so I like to think I’m familiar with such procedures, but if I find it a hassle I wonder how “normal people” deal with it?

I did teach my old man to use ACC, though. Not the limiter or LKAS mind, so it was a much easier process of “press SET at 70 then just tap brake to disengage”.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Kremmen on January 11, 2021, 12:15:55 PM
My IAM was back in 1982, 5 years after my double deck PSV licence, taken at Chiswick under Police examiners.

I don't remember being told to indicate or not after an overtake because I don't remember overtaking in an old RT bus.  :)

We were taught to stick to the nearside (your bread & butter side) at all times where possible.

Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: TiJazz on January 11, 2021, 12:41:04 PM
On that note, it’s interesting that the LKAS on Jazz favours the near side of the lane. Most other systems favour the offside as they are built for LHD markets and the software isn’t adjusted for RHD. Being a Japanese car, the Jazz is naturally designed for RHD.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jocko on January 11, 2021, 01:54:28 PM
My IAM was back in 1982, 5 years after my double deck PSV licence, taken at Chiswick under Police examiners.

I don't remember being told to indicate or not after an overtake because I don't remember overtaking in an old RT bus.  :)

We were taught to stick to the nearside (your bread & butter side) at all times where possible.
I was taught in an old Optare single-decker.

(https://i.imgur.com/v7y8tTy.jpg)

You had to take a run at it to pass a woman pushing a pram. After passing, my first driving job was a double-decker into Edinburgh city centre with youngsters coming home from T in the Park.
After that, it was mainly the new Optares and Interurban (again Edinburgh).
For those that know it the Princes Street, Lothian Road, Queensferry Road, Shandwick Place junction was a nightmare.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Kremmen on January 11, 2021, 02:23:30 PM
The London Transport RT was pre-select gearbox. That was actually fairly well thought out once you were used to it.

The snag was that if you did some overtime on another route that wasn't RT and you pre-selected a lower gear, force of habit when pulling in to stop, everyone lurched forwards :)

The main issue with the RT was that the mechanicals, steering wheel and pedals, were attached to the chassis. The drivers seat was attached to the sprung bodywork so on corners the steering wheel and pedals moved left / right.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: culzean on January 11, 2021, 04:19:08 PM
One good  reason for indicating left when going back into nearside lane, especially when a fair amount of traffic around is it will signal to following vehicle that you will soon be out of their way and may save them trying to change lane to overtake you.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jocko on January 11, 2021, 05:59:43 PM
The main issue with the RT was that the mechanicals, steering wheel and pedals, were attached to the chassis. The drivers seat was attached to the sprung bodywork so on corners the steering wheel and pedals moved left / right.
I drove an old decker like that. Every time you went to get the pedals, they were in a different place. Didn't lead to the smoothest of braking.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: springswood on January 14, 2021, 11:01:19 AM
Lane discipline seems like a lost cause these days. Reluctantly I will sometimes pass someone on the inside rather than get held up. Accelerating past with my hand on the horn. Not that I would defend that. I can't always pull out through two lanes and back to the inside.

I'm often struck by how big a tailback is created by someone who won't increase their speed by even a couple of mph to get an overtake done.

The really inexplicable one to me is that with so much more four lane motorway the selfish and lazy s*ds who would sit in the 2nd of  three lanes now sit in the 3rd  :-X.

But then I imagine if you asked people for three words that describe a good driver few would include considerate.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: culzean on January 14, 2021, 11:08:13 AM
Lane discipline seems like a lost cause these days. Reluctantly I will sometimes pass someone on the inside rather than get held up. Accelerating past with my hand on the horn. Not that I would defend that.

I'm often struck by how big a tailback is created by someone who won't increase their speed by even a couple of mph to get an overtake done.

The really inexplicable one to me is that with so much more four lane motorway the selfish and lazy s*ds who would sit in the 2nd of  three lanes now sit in the 3rd  :-X.

But then I imagine if you asked people for three words that describe a good driver few would include considerate.

Nobody in their right mind would defend undertaking with their hand on the horn.... :o 

Lorries seem particularly bad at overtakes ( OK I know they are governed, or should be ).. There is a 2 lane motorway near us ( M54 ) and I sometimes used it to get to work, lorries would creep past another line of lorries at the pace of a arthritic snail and then get to front of queue ( after miles ) and then settle at exactly the pace of the rest of lorries they just overtook - I think they have competitions to see how many cars they can keep behind them for the longest time,  maybe it brightens up their day,  must be boring driving a lorry...
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Kremmen on January 14, 2021, 11:45:01 AM
What I do like doing with the centre lane owners club is to overtake them normally then cut across their bow from lane 3 to 1.

It sometimes gives them the message.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: TiJazz on January 14, 2021, 11:58:05 AM
Honestly, with ACC & lane follow on, it’s just easier to sit in lane 2.

No need to deal with trucks or merges, and no need to disengage all the time to change lanes. Just sit there and let the computer drive...

Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: ndavey1 on January 14, 2021, 01:49:55 PM
Honestly, with ACC & lane follow on, it’s just easier to sit in lane 2.

No need to deal with trucks or merges, and no need to disengage all the time to change lanes. Just sit there and let the computer drive...
Agree completely. This is what I do. I’d like to drive in lane 1 as we’re supposed to, but with the amount of potholes caused by the lorries, I’d have a damaged Jazz.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jocko on January 14, 2021, 03:04:40 PM
I always drive in Lane 1. We only have two lanes up here. And Lane 1 is as well surfaced as Lane 2.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: richardfrost on January 14, 2021, 05:32:28 PM
Honestly, with ACC & lane follow on, it’s just easier to sit in lane 2.

No need to deal with trucks or merges, and no need to disengage all the time to change lanes. Just sit there and let the computer drive...
Agree completely. This is what I do. I’d like to drive in lane 1 as we’re supposed to, but with the amount of potholes caused by the lorries, I’d have a damaged Jazz.
Well then you are both bad inconsiderate drivers. What do you have to disengage to change lanes? Looks to me like you disengage brain to stay in lane 2. Sorry, just telling it like it is.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: ndavey1 on January 14, 2021, 05:37:56 PM
Why should I damage my car and actually cause danger by trying to avoid all the potholes in lane 1. Lorries should be in their own dedicated lanes and not allowed to overtake. I’ve seen too many accidents and almost accidents from lorries moving into the 2nd lane trying to overtake another lorry, while ending up at the same speed. This happens on the m25 on a daily basis. Until the rules for lorries are changed I will drive in the second lane.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: richardfrost on January 14, 2021, 05:41:13 PM
Why should I damage my car and actually cause danger by trying to avoid all the potholes in lane 1.

Ermm. Because it's the law?
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Westy36 on January 14, 2021, 06:16:07 PM
Highway code rule 137. "On a two-lane dual carriageway you should stay in the left-hand lane. Use the right-hand lane for overtaking or turning right. After overtaking, move back to the left-hand lane when it is safe to do so."

Rule 264 "You should always drive in the left-hand lane when the road ahead is clear. If you are overtaking a number of slower-moving vehicles, you should return to the left-hand lane as soon as you are safely past."

Not sure how long ago you passed your test, or indeed read the code.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/motorways-253-to-273 (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/motorways-253-to-273)

If you can't change lanes safely, get some more training.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: TiJazz on January 14, 2021, 06:59:07 PM
I’m not defending it, but it’s true - and on today’s motorways, everyone else is basically doing the same anyway - sitting there on ACC mode.

Until more cars come with auto lane change built into their level 2/3 driver assistance systems, many folk will do this.

I passed my IAM back in 2008, I can drive at top tier level, I just can’t be bothered to when the computer will do an acceptable job ;)

And to be honest, most of the time in lane 2 you are overtaking trucks, so it’s still legitimate to sit there at 70.

Then there’s this average speed zone rubbish where overtaking just can’t happen anyway, and everyone is bunched up at the same speed for “safety” (in reality, the opposite).

I wouldn’t say it’s “disengage brain” either. You can actually pay more attention to the traffic when lane and distance keeping are handled for you by a machine.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: richardfrost on January 14, 2021, 07:15:00 PM
I have this tech on my car but I don’t understand why lane changing is so hard. So long as I indicate the system let’s me steer into the next lane with no issues.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: ndavey1 on January 14, 2021, 07:33:44 PM
I’d love to keep to the Highway Code all the time, and if I’m driving on decent roads I will. But until they sort lane 1 of the m25 out I can’t. A couple of weeks ago I was driving happily at 50mph in lane 1. Then without warning a massive bang that shook the car (potholes). After that I wasn’t driving safely because I’m not concentrating, just worrying what damage has occurred. It’s just not worth it. The whole rule book needs updating. Roads and drivers are different now.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jocko on January 14, 2021, 08:57:00 PM
The whole rule book needs updating.
Maybe it's the M25 that needs to be updated - or at least repaired.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: richardfrost on January 14, 2021, 09:56:30 PM
I’d love to keep to the Highway Code all the time, and if I’m driving on decent roads I will. But until they sort lane 1 of the m25 out I can’t. A couple of weeks ago I was driving happily at 50mph in lane 1. Then without warning a massive bang that shook the car (potholes). After that I wasn’t driving safely because I’m not concentrating, just worrying what damage has occurred. It’s just not worth it. The whole rule book needs updating. Roads and drivers are different now.
Do you drive happily in Lane 2 at 50mph?
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: ColinB on January 15, 2021, 08:40:18 AM
Driving constantly in lane 2 is inconsiderate, thoughtless, and demonstrates a lack of awareness of road conditions. Not only are you creating a tailback of other vehicles, and forcing them to either undertake or out into lane 3 to overtake, you are also blocking drivers in lane 1 from moving out to overtake. You can also be booked for doing it:
https://www.ageas.co.uk/solved/road-safety/middle-lane-hogging-are-you-aware-of-the-risks/
“In the eyes of the law middle lane hogging is seen as a careless driving offence”

Here’s a thought if you’re relying on ACC to keep a distance from the car ahead: does it apply the brakes if the car ahead does? Or does it, like most speed limiters, just cut the gas ... which won’t stop you piling into the braking vehicle ahead?
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: richardfrost on January 15, 2021, 09:30:27 AM
It’s this kind of selfish driving that is the caricature of Jazz drivers!
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: ndavey1 on January 15, 2021, 10:01:13 AM
Driving constantly in lane 2 is inconsiderate, thoughtless, and demonstrates a lack of awareness of road conditions. Not only are you creating a tailback of other vehicles, and forcing them to either undertake or out into lane 3 to overtake, you are also blocking drivers in lane 1 from moving out to overtake. You can also be booked for doing it:
https://www.ageas.co.uk/solved/road-safety/middle-lane-hogging-are-you-aware-of-the-risks/
“In the eyes of the law middle lane hogging is seen as a careless driving offence”

Here’s a thought if you’re relying on ACC to keep a distance from the car ahead: does it apply the brakes if the car ahead does? Or does it, like most speed limiters, just cut the gas ... which won’t stop you piling into the braking vehicle ahead?

In lane 2 I set ACC to 70 and it keeps up to the traffic, slowing and speeding and stopping if need be. The speed limit is 70 so this is fine as I see it.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: ColinB on January 15, 2021, 10:42:05 AM
In lane 2 I set ACC to 70 and it keeps up to the traffic, slowing and speeding and stopping if need be. The speed limit is 70 so this is fine as I see it.
That's only "fine" if road conditions are such that you can't move back into lane 1. But remaining in lane 2 (or 3 or 4) when inner lanes are clear is needlessly obstructive for other road users.

Interesting press release from IAM Roadsmart today about the need for training in the safe use of advanced driver assistance systems (ADAS):
https://www.iamroadsmart.com/media-and-policy/newsroom/news-details/2021/01/13/better-training-is-essential-to-make-adas-a-safety-benefit-and-not-a-potential-hazard
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: springswood on January 15, 2021, 10:58:16 AM
I fully expected and deserve to be rebuked for my occasional bad driving. Most of the time, like Kremmen, I pull out across two lanes, pass then back to the left hand lane. Sometimes the lane hogger gets the message and just occasionally I get to see the congestion they caused ease.

At the level of congestion on the M25 I don't have a problem with not going into the left hand lane because it can be so difficult to pull out again. It's the times when four lanes are clear as far as you can see and still someone sits in the third lane that puzzle me. And when someone pulls out to their accustomed lane even though the lane they're in is clear.

Often I suspect their justification is that the left hand lane becomes a turning ahead, as if it doesn't make any difference that it is a mile or two away. Aside from wondering what was the point of building an extra lane you get the situation where a 'far sighted' lorry is in the second lane doing 55 with a queue behind. In the 3rd lane is another queue for the lorry overtaking at 56. Finally the outside lane is full of cars stuck behind someone exercising their inalienable right to overtake at 57 mph.

Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: ColinS on January 15, 2021, 11:03:09 AM
In lane 2 I set ACC to 70 and it keeps up to the traffic, slowing and speeding and stopping if need be. The speed limit is 70 so this is fine as I see it.
Emergency vehicles, with or without blue lights, may exceed the speed limit if operationally necessary.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: TiJazz on January 15, 2021, 12:07:04 PM
Driving constantly in lane 2 is inconsiderate, thoughtless, and demonstrates a lack of awareness of road conditions. Not only are you creating a tailback of other vehicles, and forcing them to either undertake or out into lane 3 to overtake, you are also blocking drivers in lane 1 from moving out to overtake. You can also be booked for doing it:
https://www.ageas.co.uk/solved/road-safety/middle-lane-hogging-are-you-aware-of-the-risks/
“In the eyes of the law middle lane hogging is seen as a careless driving offence”

Here’s a thought if you’re relying on ACC to keep a distance from the car ahead: does it apply the brakes if the car ahead does? Or does it, like most speed limiters, just cut the gas ... which won’t stop you piling into the braking vehicle ahead?
ACC has access to the friction brakes, and modern vision systems have very good cut-in/merge out detection. In fact I believe ACC on the Jazz is entirely vision based.

But yes, I think there is a divide here between those who drive on the M25 and those who don’t. The inside lane on the M25 is always full of trucks, so you naturally never enter it. On the rare occasions it’s free, and not set aside for an off ramp filter, I use it - but that honestly doesn’t happen often!

On the M1 south I never use the inside lane because it tends to randomly turn into a hard shoulder - even lane 2 is usually full of confused trucks moving in and out of lane 1, so it’s safest to stay in lane 3!

The Highway Code needs adjusting for modern motorway management and traffic patterns.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Kremmen on January 15, 2021, 12:31:39 PM
I agree that some motorways, like the London orbital car park, do often force a continual 2nd lane journey but I think to use this tactic on less busy motorways and stick to lane 2 regardless has been covered above.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: richardfrost on January 15, 2021, 01:02:25 PM
On the M1 south I never use the inside lane because it tends to randomly turn into a hard shoulder - even lane 2 is usually full of confused trucks moving in and out of lane 1, so it’s safest to stay in lane 3!

The Highway Code needs adjusting for modern motorway management and traffic patterns.

Words fail me, they really do!
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: TiJazz on January 15, 2021, 01:44:18 PM
“Legal” and “safe” are not the same thing sadly. I’ll take safe any day.

I’ve seen more than enough videos of legal motorists getting ploughed by HGVs. I don’t want my grave to say “well, at least he was driving legally”.

Ps. M1 south has 4 lanes, so there is still room outside to pass folk in 3. Also, 1 and 2 are always full of trucks so if you’re in 3 guess what - you’re legally allowed to be there because you’re passing the traffic inside!

I think people are confusing busy motorways in SE England with the miles and miles of empty road up north.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: culzean on January 15, 2021, 02:30:15 PM
The inside lane on a smart motorway is not a place you want to be - it used to be the safety area or 'hard shoulder' on a 3 lane motorway  but the idiots decided they could make it another lane and dispense with the very sensible hard shoulder that was often used by emergency services.  Only time I use the inside lane that used to be the hard shoulder  is if I am within a short distance of my off junction.  If they had planned properly for increasing traffic they could have built 3 lane motorways but with 4 or 5 lane bridges,  that way ( except on raised areas of say M6, of which there are many ) it would have been a lot easier to build extra lanes. 
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: TiJazz on January 15, 2021, 02:35:11 PM
Exactly. Smart motorways kill people. I would gladly take a ticket for lane hogging than the alternative.

The side effect of smart motorways is that you see more trucks in lane 2 (because they’re not stupid enough to be in lane 1 either), so 70mph traffic is basically restricted to lanes 3 and 4.

Folk from other parts of the country who have not seen such things are of course going to feel differently, because they just don’t know how dangerous the things are.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: richardfrost on January 15, 2021, 03:29:45 PM
Exactly. Smart motorways kill people. I would gladly take a ticket for lane hogging than the alternative.

The side effect of smart motorways is that you see more trucks in lane 2 (because they’re not stupid enough to be in lane 1 either), so 70mph traffic is basically restricted to lanes 3 and 4.

Folk from other parts of the country who have not seen such things are of course going to feel differently, because they just don’t know how dangerous the things are.

You have an interesting vision of the North. The motorway I use most often is the M62 between Manchester and the M1 junction, which is permanently in the top 6 most congested routes in Europe and has sections of Smart Motorway on it.

There is a huge difference I will admit between passing long lines of spaced out trucks by staying in Lane 2 and not moving into Lane 1 when it is clear. Because of the amount of hills the M62 crosses, there’s a lot of truck based congestion. And for the section between J25 and J29 around Leeds, in normal times, the road is solid in all 3 or 4 lanes so the best tactic is to pick a lane and stay in it.

However when I used to travel the country a lot with work, plodding lane hoggers on the old 2 lane A1, the M1, the M42, the M4 and the M25 were the bane of my life. If the lane to your left is clear, you should be in it.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: TiJazz on January 15, 2021, 03:53:57 PM
Agreed. I’m yet to see that lane be clear - but then I drive maybe 3000 miles a year and it’s always at weekends so traffic is crazy :)
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jocko on January 15, 2021, 04:22:39 PM
I'm quite lucky "up North" here in Scotland. There are hardly any HGVs on the road at weekends and only a fraction of the "white van" brigade. There are more cars, and unfortunately half of them are "weekend drivers" (what used to be Sunday drivers), but the roads tend to be a lot quieter. And most of our motorways (apart from Glasgow) are two-lane for the most part.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: richardfrost on January 15, 2021, 04:35:20 PM
I think the M2 and M20, for obvious reasons, the M42 for reasons unknown to me, the A14/M14 to Felixstowe and the M62 are the truck magnets of the UK. Every day of the week there are trucks going back and forth between Hull and Liverpool on the M62. This route is where we need a new high speed railway, for freight and commuters. Imagine how much more efficient that would be than a bazillion Diesel engines powering over the Pennines. Whenever there is an issue on the highest part of the M62, all this traffic piles onto the A58 through our local villages along the valley routes. As a driver around here, you really need to be on your toes.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Kremmen on January 16, 2021, 06:24:02 AM
This centre lane owners club vehicle refused to move in, forced the van to move to lane 3 and shortly after I undertook as it was doing about 5mph below the limit.

No bad potholed inside lane:

(https://i.imgur.com/6ZJMAgv.jpg)
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jocko on January 16, 2021, 09:09:32 AM
I like to signal, move out and pass then signal and return to lane one. It's amazing how often they get the message.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: ndavey1 on January 16, 2021, 09:22:14 AM
So what is considered undertaking? If I’m in lane 1 and driving at 70, a car is in the middle lane driving 60, am I justified to continue driving in lane 1 and passing? Is it right then that the slower vehicle in middle lane is in the wrong as they should be moving to lane 1 then? I always understand undertaking as deliberately moving from middle lane to lane 1 then passing?
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jocko on January 16, 2021, 09:32:38 AM
Undertaking is passing to the left of the vehicle irrespective of whether you change lanes or not. It is only allowed in slow moving traffic where one lane is moving faster than the other, such as where traffic is turning right.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: ndavey1 on January 16, 2021, 09:45:25 AM
So by driving at a constant speed in lane 1 and passing vehicles that are “hogging” the middle lane I’d be in the wrong and could be fined? Even though I’ve just been told that “hogging” the middle lane is wrong. It seems the rules need to be updated. They must have been created when there were much fewer lanes, fewer cars on the road, less need to change lanes. No right minded person can think it’s safer to keep changing lanes than driving at a constant speed in one.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: culzean on January 16, 2021, 09:52:24 AM
So what is considered undertaking? If I’m in lane 1 and driving at 70, a car is in the middle lane driving 60, am I justified to continue driving in lane 1 and passing? Is it right then that the slower vehicle in middle lane is in the wrong as they should be moving to lane 1 then? I always understand undertaking as deliberately moving from middle lane to lane 1 then passing?

You are undertaking every time you pass a vehicle on the nearside,  as Jocko says it is only allowed when in slow moving traffic or when another vehicle is turning right.  Always amuses me on busy motorways when one lane appears to be moving faster than the others and people dive into that lane only to find vehicles they have just passed are now passing them,  so they again dive into 'faster' lane and same thing happens ad infinitum.   On the motorways when every lane is full ( eg M6 between 7am and 9am and 4-30pm and 6pm ) I happily sit in middle lane doing 20mph with all the other traffic overtaking and being passed by other cars stressing themselves to always be in the 'faster lane'.  Leaving the inside lane a bit emptier allows the poor s0ds who are trying to join motorway a fighting chance.

So by driving at a constant speed in lane 1 and passing vehicles that are “hogging” the middle lane I’d be in the wrong and could be fined? Even though I’ve just been told that “hogging” the middle lane is wrong. It seems the rules need to be updated. They must have been created when there were much fewer lanes, fewer cars on the road, less need to change lanes. No right minded person can think it’s safer to keep changing lanes than driving at a constant speed in one.

The key is 'slow moving traffic' so if you are undertaking them at a speed over 30mph then probably you would get a ticket.  I ride a motorbike and see idiots on motorbikes riding down the middle of lines of cars moving at quite a fair speed, they call it filtering but I call it lane splitting and it is probably the most dangerous thing you can do on a bike. I will only filter at a slow speed ( about 10mph ) if cars pretty much stopped,  and be ever wary of someone darting into another lane.


https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/undertaking/

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Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: ColinB on January 16, 2021, 10:44:56 AM
Actually, Rule 268 does not stipulate anything about "slow moving traffic" when referring specifically to motorways:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/motorways-253-to-273

"Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake"

This suggests that changing lanes to overtake in busy conditions (whether on the inside or the outside) is regarded as more hazardous than staying in the same lane, which sounds sensible and pragmatic to me. That does not mean that staying in lane 2 when lane 1 is clear is OK, or that undertaking is OK if the road is otherwise clear.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: Jocko on January 16, 2021, 11:07:11 AM
It doesn't say " slow moving traffic" but then pretty much stipulates that in the next section. I was not specifically talking about motorway traffic but traffic in general with my reference to turning right.
Rule 163.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: richardfrost on January 16, 2021, 01:02:59 PM
So by driving at a constant speed in lane 1 and passing vehicles that are “hogging” the middle lane I’d be in the wrong and could be fined? Even though I’ve just been told that “hogging” the middle lane is wrong. It seems the rules need to be updated. They must have been created when there were much fewer lanes, fewer cars on the road, less need to change lanes. No right minded person can think it’s safer to keep changing lanes than driving at a constant speed in one.
The Highway Code is constantly updated and can be considered to reflect current driving conditions. This right minded person believes it is completely wrong to remain in any lane if there is an empty lane to your left. What you are doing is inconsiderate and forcing other drivers to change lanes and make their own choices to compensate for your rule breaking and inconsiderate road positioning.
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: gregoz on February 05, 2021, 01:49:29 PM
Waiting for tech specs..

Fuel consumption will be interesting given the new hybrid set up. My Mk3 is not great on fuel consumption although that is mostly down to short stop/start journeys in cold wet weather. I haven't seen 50 mpg as a long term average since my VW Golf TDI and that was a 2005 model.

I know one or two people who have the hybrid Yaris and that gets significantly better mpg than the Jazz in the urban environment. On the open road, much less so.

I'd be interested in a Mk4.

Hi Everyone, and welcome to the forum. This is what I will check first. So far 35 miles on the dashboard in total so I can't say anything. I will be updating…
Title: Re: Honda Jazz Mk4 2020
Post by: gregoz on February 05, 2021, 02:13:20 PM
But that is only available on the Crosstar.
True. Fortunately that's the version which most interests me as it claims to have a slightly higher ride height than the normal Jazz (one of the attractions of my current HR-V).
Actually, this is very firs think I’ve found out after getting in to Jazz MK4. Driver seat can be set lower than in model MK3, and actually I like this, I like to seat lower. First difference and first thumb up for me.