Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums

Honda Jazz, HR-V & Hybrid Forums => Honda Jazz Mk3 2015 - 2020 => Topic started by: orcadian on January 28, 2019, 06:19:46 PM

Title: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: orcadian on January 28, 2019, 06:19:46 PM
Well we have had our Jazz SE (manual) for about a month now and still liking it.  We never really got anywhere with the service book saga, I really canít be bothered going down a legal route with such an incompetent bunch of numpties.  Iíll just get it stamped next time Iím passing and have nothing more to do with that dealership.

Anyway, to the point of the post:  the engine stop has never actuated in over 500 miles of varied driving.  I have read the manual to discover the situations when it may not activate anyway.  Yesterday after quite a few 20mile plus journeys when I stopped and selected neutral, not only did the circled A come on as usual but the battery symbol also illuminated.  Never having had a stop start car before, am I expecting too much in this colder weather?
Iím not concerned if the stop start never ever works but while I still have a warranty, I WILL poke them with a sharp stick if the battery is failing.
I checked the quiescent battery voltage (12.6) and 14.4 with engine running, so the alternator appears ok.

This sept 2015 car had not been used for over a year after the P.O. passed away, so the battery could have been allowed to go flat.

Any thoughts folks?
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: andruec on January 28, 2019, 06:30:48 PM
Never having had a stop start car before, am I expecting too much in this colder weather?
No, you're not. You say you haven't encountered it before but you shouldn't be viewing it as new technology, that might be temperamental or new technology you struggle to get to grips with. It's new, yes, but Honda have implemented it well and it should just work.

You say you get the circled 'A' - on its own that means that idle stop is active (there should also be a yellow illuminated symbol on the dash). If there is a problem preventing idle stop the 'A' will be crossed through and something else appears alongside. The symbol you're describing sounds like the 'not enough charge in the battery' warning.

I wonder if - at this time of year - 20 mile journeys might not be enough to charge the battery fully. I remember once I ran my battery down by leaving the interior light on and it took several days before idle stop started working so probably a dozen 12 mile trips - and they were mostly on the open road. That was in summer. I also know that several friends of my Dad's have had to get solar charges for their Jazz because as pensioners a trip to the shops and back once a week result in a flat battery. Methinks that the alternator on the Jazz might be a bit weedy.

There have been reports from some here of cold weather preventing it working but I've never experienced it. It was 2c as I left work today and it kicked in as normal at the second roundabout after only two miles. To me it sounds borderline faulty but if you can find the time for a longer drive during the day when as little electrical equipment as possible is running that might solve the battery problem.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: orcadian on January 28, 2019, 06:43:30 PM
Thanks for the quick response,
Yes, itís a manual and so far has never shown any reluctance to start but the auto lights have been on quite a few times in dull conditions.  Iíve driven into Town (about 20 miles each way) with the aircon off, no heated rear window/mirrors on and even the radio Off just to see if it was possible to get thing to stop when I pulled up.  According to the manual it has to be in neutral to get it to idlestop, which is when the auto stop symbol with a bar through it comes on each time.  I might get a drop test done on the battery and if itís less than normal will tackle them about it.  If that produces no result then I might get Honda involved in the whole story from the beginning.

Regards,
Ian
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: andruec on January 28, 2019, 06:49:23 PM
According to the manual it has to be in neutral to get it to idlestop, which is when the auto stop symbol with a bar through it comes on each time.
Ah, I didn't know that you had to engage neutral. Hmm. That seems almost as odd as the CVT mechanism - that must mean a lot of manual drivers are not benefiting from it and I can't really see why it needs neutral selecting even though I always do myself when driving a manual.
Quote
I might get a drop test done on the battery and if itís less than normal will tackle them about it.  If that produces no result then I might get Honda involved in the whole story from the beginning.
Might be worth a shot. Bear in mind that it's a special battery designed to handle the loading imposed by idle stop so it might require a special test.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on January 28, 2019, 07:11:31 PM
While waiting to walk across a carpark road at local shopping centre the other day a VW stopped at the crossing, and his engine also stopped, he drove about 20 foot to a junction and I heard his engine stop again, this is verging on the ridiculous - can't they put a short delay in the system to stop what appears to be constant instantaneous stopping and starting ?  I was driven in a BMW and on the motorway we hit slow traffic, the same happened - as soon as the car stopped so did the engine - it must have stopped and started 20+ times in less than a mile,  it would drive me bonkers....
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John A on January 28, 2019, 07:57:20 PM
I believe you can turn it off which will reduce unnecessary stops / starts.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: andruec on January 28, 2019, 08:05:44 PM
While waiting to walk across a carpark road at local shopping centre the other day a VW stopped at the crossing, and his engine also stopped, he drove about 20 foot to a junction and I heard his engine stop again, this is verging on the ridiculous - can't they put a short delay in the system to stop what appears to be constant instantaneous stopping and starting ?  I was driven in a BMW and on the motorway we hit slow traffic, the same happened - as soon as the car stopped so did the engine - it must have stopped and started 20+ times in less than a mile,  it would drive me bonkers....
A better question would be why did the VW driver have to stop twice in short succession? Probably leaving their braking a bit late, travelling a bit too fast and not looking far enough ahead. Similar problem in the motorway queue. People do so like to shuffle along bumper to bumper. I try to maintain a gap and fairly steady speed, coming to a complete halt only rarely and then for many seconds.

But why did it bother you? You stop, the engine stops. You go to move away and the engine springs into life before you need it. From an efficiency point of view having it switch off for less than three seconds is sub-optimal but otherwise it doesn't matter. It's just something the car does and something that rarely (very rarely with a little thought) interferes with driving the vehicle.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Kenneve on January 28, 2019, 08:38:31 PM
I can only comment on the stop-start operation in  a CVT car, but find that mine rarely operates simply because I normally don't brake hard enough. There seems to be a minimum brake pedal pressure required to trigger it.
Yes it can be switched off with a button adjacent to the gear lever, but it always defaults to On.
I was always taught to feather the brake as you come to a stop, hence the low brake pressure when stopped.

If the battery is down for any reason I usually get a message in the multi display, saying 'auto stop not available' or some such.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: phillywolf on January 28, 2019, 09:13:43 PM
Well we have a brand new Jazz EX manual for 2 weeks now and never has its idle stop start worked. Assume the battery is ok unless it was stored somewhere prior to delivery sitting round in a compound somewhere the battery should be ok. Did a 70 mile jaunt today and idle stop never worked even at the end of it. No air con no radio automatic lights off. Got the same A line through it and the battery at the side. Spoke to the dealer on the weekend and he said it was temperamental and explained how it should work as per handbook which we all know. Thankfully we didn't buy the car for idle stop so not really bothered . Our audi a1 a few years back had it and worked efficiently except for one time when pulling off a junction idle stop kicked in and nearly caused someone to rear end us which would not have been their fault. Turned it off after that never used again. It would be nice if Honda cannot guarantee it to work for everyone perhaps they should maybe delete the aid.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John Ratsey on January 28, 2019, 10:56:09 PM
The auto stop can be temperamental. Last week my HR-V was with the local dealer for three days so they could test it and try to reassure me that it was working correctly (the core problem being the low battery symbol). The measurements were sent to Honda who responded that the system was working as they would expect. That it doesn't work as I would expect appears to be irrelevant.

I had a long discussion with the workshop manager and one of the technicians. Among the points mentioned were (i) some parameters (battery?) are only measured at the beginning of a trip when the engine is started and (ii) there is a long list of parameters which are considered by the ECU before deciding whether to stop the engine as it wants to be confident that the engine will restart without hesitation. I had deduced the first check when I had a Mk 3 Jazz. The vehicle had been standing for a few days and I then did a 100 mile trip of which the first 80 were on motorway (ie plenty of time for the battery to be charged) and then some urban driving where the stop-start system didn't work due to low battery. However, after a stop for a break the system was fine. My antidote to these problems is to manually charge the battery if the vehicle hasn't been used for more than a couple of days so that the battery check when the engine is started can tick the right boxes.

However, the dissertation above is only relevant if the battery symbol is showing on the mult-function display. For the first few miles of each journey it's normally a thermometer (= engine temperature) and once that has warmed up the next impediment is the cabin temperature (A/C showing on the display) which doesn't just mean air conditioning but also includes the heating being too far from the set temperature. Turning the fan off will remove this impediment.

As for auto-stop and the CVT transmission: It should work when the vehicle is stopped and the brake pedal firmly pressed down. There's no need to touch the gear stick. If the brake pedal is pressed less firmly then the auto-stop won't work (brake pedal symbol on the multi-function display) which is useful to avoid the engine stopping when getting close to the front of the queue at a roundabout.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: ColinB on January 29, 2019, 03:26:09 AM
My experience (manual box) after 3 years of ownership is that cold weather makes the system much less likely to operate. Last winter I took it back to the dealer because of what seemed like erratic behaviour (eg not working after a long drive that should have charged the battery fully, sometimes working and sometimes not in the course of the same journey); their conclusion was that it was working properly. And indeed all was back to normal when the ambient temperature improved.

One of the inhibiting factors is "battery internal temperature" and my best guess is that this can take some time to warm up if the car is in a "cold soak" situation, and may not actually warm up enough even on a long journey.

As for how to get it to work, my procedure is:
1. Car stopped, eg at lights.
2. Handbrake on (not sure if this is essential, but it's my habit).
3. Gear lever in neutral, foot off clutch.
4. Engine will stop, assuming none of the inhibiting factors are present.
5. Engine restarts as soon as clutch is depressed.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John A on January 29, 2019, 06:45:05 AM
My new to me CVT Jazz will have it, on a manual Qashqai it seemed overly wanting to stop the engine, so that you'd stop at traffic lights, for example, which were on red, and of course once stopped and handbrake on the engine stopped, and very frequently the lights would almost immediately change and so the engine would start up again. Got to the point where I was switching it off as it seemed to be making me think about how I was to use the car to use the feature properly, rather that it being an aid.

Don't do much city driving and so the amount of fuel it saved was small, if I was driving only in cities, then I can see it'll make a difference to the pollution levels and my fuel consumption.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: orcadian on January 29, 2019, 08:52:23 AM
Many thanks folks for the excellent replies, so really it would appear that it is one of those systems designed to appease the tree huggers.  I can see the benefit in congested cities where it MIGHT reduce the effects of harmful emissions but up here in Orkney, if we encounter 10 vehicles on our 20 mile drive to the metropolis (Kirkwall) we consider it busy.  Since buying the car just before Christmas the temperature has rarely got into double figures and the battery has definitely been regularly cold soaked, so Iíll keep an eye on it in the better weather.
I feel a bit more confident about the battery now but didnít want to wait too long before reporting it to the Dealer in case they wouldnít honour the warranty.  I will definitely report the Ďproblemí if indeed there is one, by email, so at least I have a record of their response, should I need it.  Iím certainly not going to be charging the battery every few days if we havenít used the car - thatís going back to the dark ages well before all this largely unwanted technology appeared on our cars.  If modern cars canít be left at an airport for a 3 week holiday without a problem, they are clearly not fit for purpose.

Thanks again everyone,
Ian
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Jocko on January 29, 2019, 09:48:04 AM
If modern cars canít be left at an airport for a 3 week holiday without a problem, they are clearly not fit for purpose.
I left my Jazz parked up for 6 weeks while I recovered from surgery, and it turned over and started, first turn of the key. Same as if it had been only parked overnight.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on January 29, 2019, 10:14:28 AM
If modern cars can’t be left at an airport for a 3 week holiday without a problem, they are clearly not fit for purpose.
I left my Jazz parked up for 6 weeks while I recovered from surgery, and it turned over and started, first turn of the key. Same as if it had been only parked overnight.

My wifes car has been left for a long  time as well ( MK2 Si ) about 5 weeks and on return I hooked the charger up just as a precaution,  the charger went from amber ( charging / checking)  to green light ( trickle charge) within 10 minutes,  which meant the battery was still pretty well fully charged ( Yuasa Silver).  But we don't have the bells and whistles of more recent Jazz ( alarms, keyless gizmo and all the other tech) that can cause high parasitic loads on battery....

Even a standby load of 100milliamps will drop the battery by 1 a/h every 10 hours, ( 2.5 a/h per day ). Car makers are supposed to set a maximum parasitic load for electronics systems etc at 75millamps ( which is still about 2 a/h per day ) - but apparently if you leave your fob within range of a keyless system it can draw a fair amount of current as the system stays powered up.

These figures are OK if car is used every day,  but if left for a week or more they can be bad news.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John A on January 29, 2019, 11:08:48 AM
Thought about using a DVM in the 12v power socket, like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LED-Digital-Auto-Car-Truck-Cigarette-Lighter-Volt-Voltage-Meter-Monitor-12V-24V/202260870213?epid=10006309671&hash=item2f17aff445:g:5E0AAOSwnCxaqU83:rk:3:pf:1&frcectupt=true

You can then monitor what the charging system is doing, if it's always at 14v+ then I'd say that the auto start / stop will not activate. With my 2014 manual Jazz which doesn't have start / stop and the Qashqai that did, I'd see readings in the 14v to about 12.5v during normal running around. Though the Jazz always shows 14v+ if driving above about 40mph.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: phillywolf on January 29, 2019, 01:48:40 PM
Well I just don't know what's going on. After yesterdays jaunt it not working just took the car out and within 3 miles it worked for the first time. Outside temp, 2 degrees. I pulled into a supermarket car park to test whether it would work again and blow me after several stop starts in an empty part of the car park it worked every time . Got me thinking now if the battery was low when I picked up the car and 200 miles later the battery is in peak charge, I don't know.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: andruec on January 29, 2019, 03:28:52 PM
Well I just don't know what's going on. After yesterdays jaunt it not working just took the car out and within 3 miles it worked for the first time. Outside temp, 2 degrees. I pulled into a supermarket car park to test whether it would work again and blow me after several stop starts in an empty part of the car park it worked every time . Got me thinking now if the battery was low when I picked up the car and 200 miles later the battery is in peak charge, I don't know.
Could be, that was my suspicion. I can only speak from my own (CVT) experience which as I've said is that it works most of the time and there's always a good reason (engine temp or AC usually) why it won't. John Ratsey's explanation of specific fault conditions only being checked on startup might also account for what you've seen.

One other thing is that although my car is parked outside during the working day it is housed in a garage overnight so almost never experiences sub-zero temperatures at startup (although as some of you may remember that hasn't prevented it being a bit temperamental about starting in the past).

As for the benefits of it..they are minor but I do believe they exist. A couple of years ago there were road works on the road leading to my office and they resulted in long queues (over five minutes). If I stopped, IS would kick in and the mpg display would just freeze. If the change took too long (as it often did :( ) the mpg display would start dropping by .1 every half a minute or so.

Are the benefits worth what we've all paid for Honda to incorporate it into the vehicle? I don't know. However since it is in the car it makes sense to use it. It will be (however slightly) reducing fuel consumption and pollution every time it turns the engine off for more than ~3 seconds. With a little thought and anticipation (always a good thing anyway) you can minimise the frequency and ensure that it only turns the engine off when it's worth while and when it won't interfere with you.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: phillywolf on January 29, 2019, 04:02:32 PM
Andruec. thanks for the above. Forgot to add I always garage my cars 30 years now and if the car will not fit in a garage we will not have one. The more I think about it now and not realising the battery in a Jazz was smaller whatever can't recall previous posts I reckon it has stood still somewhere and when delivered to the dealer the infamous PDI dealer checks never picked it up. I don't know. Anyway as previously stated it will not affect the enjoyment of the car. Cheers.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: orcadian on January 29, 2019, 04:16:15 PM
Lots of food for thought from your great replies, thanks.  I have emailed the Dealer with the situation so far but have yet to get a reply (but only a few hours ago). This was really only to start the ball rolling.  I might eventually put it on my Ďintelligentí charger to ensure max available capacity and wait for a bit warmer weather to give it a definitive test, unless of course it fails to start in the interim.
Not sure how much improvement in fuel economy it would need to pay for the addition of this auto idle stop system, especially in our case here in Orkney.
Regards,
Ian
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Jocko on January 29, 2019, 04:28:48 PM
You can then monitor what the charging system is doing, if it's always at 14v+ then I'd say that the auto start / stop will not activate. With my 2014 manual Jazz which doesn't have start / stop and the Qashqai that did, I'd see readings in the 14v to about 12.5v during normal running around. Though the Jazz always shows 14v+ if driving above about 40mph.
I popped over to Edinburgh today. and because the ScanGauge E has a range of parameters you can monitor, I selected battery voltage. It sat at 14.6 volts for the entire journey.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: andruec on January 29, 2019, 04:52:37 PM
Not sure how much improvement in fuel economy it would need to pay for the addition of this auto idle stop system, especially in our case here in Orkney.
Lol, no, I shouldn't think it'll save you much. It probably doesn't save much for me either. My normal commute is largely main roads and in the morning I avoid rush hour. I'd also far rather not come to a standstill at all (more energy required to accelerate from stationary) so I minimise it's opportunities as well.

I suspect its main advantage is in air quality for pedestrians but even that's probably negligible. Outside of that it possibly also helps pass emissions tests. But..we have it and have paid for it so we might as well try and get best value out of it.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Jocko on January 29, 2019, 05:00:35 PM
I'd also far rather not come to a standstill at all (more energy required to accelerate from stationary)
This is something I try my best to achieve. People say, "What difference does it make?" but try pushing a broken down car and see how difficult it is to get it moving, and how much easier it is to push, once moving.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John Ratsey on January 29, 2019, 05:06:01 PM
Not sure how much improvement in fuel economy it would need to pay for the addition of this auto idle stop system, especially in our case here in Orkney.
It's a feature added to improve the urban mpg in the official testing as the test routine includes a lot of stopping, waiting and restarting. However, the test rules allowed the vehicles to reach optimum operating temperature before testing so that the high fuel consumption by cold engines (probably a bigger hit to mpg than being stuck in queuing traffic) never got included. I think that's changed with the real life testing - I was told by my Honda dealer that the new CR-V has thermostatically controlled shutters on the engine compartment which is a feature I would have added years ago.

And I wouldn't be worried that the car won't start. There's a big margin between the battery state for the stop-start to work and the charge needed to start the engine. Nonetheless, manually charging the battery will help maintain good battery health and might get the stop-start to work.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: orcadian on January 31, 2019, 09:11:18 AM
Many thanks John,
I too would not be concerned about it not starting under normal conditions, what I was really bothered about is why the battery symbol came on at the end of a fairly lengthy drive and whether this just might be connected to the fact that the car was not used for possibly more than a year after the demise of the owner; during which time the battery MIGHT have been allowed to go flat.  If others have had similar warning symbols on regularly used cars, then I probably donít have anything to worry about.

Regards,
Ian
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: phillywolf on February 06, 2019, 05:15:16 PM
Sorry to continue this thread. I had initial problem with this now 500 miles in and has never failed after a short half a mile drive. I have had air con on and still works, no pressing brake pedal hard. It just works as normal. I firmly believe as stated previously our car was sat around prior to sale and battery charge was not checked during PDI. I also appreciate temperature is rising slightly at this time.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: ColinB on March 01, 2019, 08:14:26 PM
Just to chuck in my recent experience with the Idle-Stop (IS) system.

My car has just been garaged for 5 weeks whilst we fled to a southern hemisphere summer. It started first time, once I'd remembered to depress the clutch (having been driving rented automatics).

However the IS didn't operate, the multi-functional display showing the "low battery" indication. And that persisted throughout a series of short local drives, even during the recent  "heatwave". Presumably the tiny current drain whilst garaged was just enough to drop the voltage below the threshold that prevented the IS operating (but not enough to prevent the car starting) and the local drives weren't enough to recharge that tiny amount.

Just done the first motorway drive since returning, and I still got the "low battery" indication when I stopped after around 80 miles. However at traffic lights just a couple of miles after restarting it started functioning normally. That suggests there's something in the theory that the computer decides at the start of a drive if IS is going to function, and doesn't revisit that decision until a new drive starts even if all the inhibiting factors - such as battery charge - become OK during the drive.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: peteo48 on March 01, 2019, 09:25:21 PM
I think what you say makes a lot of sense Colin. Mine hasn't worked for about a month now. I had a similar situation last year after we had been on holiday and it took some time before it started working again. I think my experience has been, a bit like the situation you describe, the car decides at the start of a journey it isn't going to use the system. I can't recall a situation where it has kicked in during a journey but I wouldn't swear to that.

My pattern of driving must be pretty heavy on the battery - short journeys with literally everything on if it has been frosty.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: monkeydave on March 09, 2019, 08:45:23 PM
ive just picked my jazz up today, it has been sitting about since last sept as its pre reg with 16 miles on and after a 60 mile run (most motorway) it started to work ok

i was getting the battery symbol and the stop/start symbol on the screen

is it the battery itself that was low? will i have problems driving the car soon if i dont charge it up? i always push the button to stop it comming on as i dont like the system and would rather have it disabled from any car i own, i was just trying it as its new
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: ColinB on March 09, 2019, 10:22:54 PM
If it's been unused since September then it's likely that the battery voltage has dropped slightly due to systems like the alarm that continually draw current. That's enough to prevent the ultra-cautious Idle-Stop system from stopping the engine. But - as you've doubtless discovered - that isn't enough to prevent the engine starting when you need it to. If it's now functioning as  it should after your longish drive then there's no need for concern about the battery state.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: orcadian on March 10, 2019, 10:07:34 AM
Iím really pleased with these often different yet very informative replies and it seems that there should be no problem when the temperatures increase and we have a few longer trips.  As I indicated before, what was really of immediate concern was the fact that the car had been unused for 12 months plus and without regular checking and charging could have gone completely flat.  This is not the way to treat a lead acid battery as we all know and as the car was from a rather uncooperative Honda Dealer, we wanted to tackle them (or Honda) early if it needed a replacement.  If it lasts another year, then I wonít mind replacing it myself but was certainly not prepared to do that in the first few months on a so called ĎHonda Approvedí vehicle which Ďapparentlyí had a comprehensive multi point check prior to resale.
We are both really pleased with the car after only 1000 miles or so and just returning from a holiday, having left the car outside here in Orkney for nearly a fortnight, it started as though we had just popped down the shops, so I think we can forget about the battery state for a while.

Ian
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: peteo48 on March 17, 2019, 10:05:40 PM
Just a little bit of info relating to my car and its Auto Idle Stop system. It hasn't operated for about 6 weeks now and shows the battery symbol when it doesn't activate.

Done a decent drive today - 80 mile return trip on mainly motorways and other dual carriageways. It is still showing the battery symbol - ie the battery is too flat for it to activate - seems a bit odd to me, I would have thought the 80 mile trip would have done the business.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John Ratsey on March 18, 2019, 08:18:01 AM
Done a decent drive today - 80 mile return trip on mainly motorways and other dual carriageways. It is still showing the battery symbol - ie the battery is too flat for it to activate - seems a bit odd to me, I would have thought the 80 mile trip would have done the business.
You might have fallen foul of the battery condition check which is done at the start of the trip although, if your 80 miles was split as 2 x 40 miles, then I would have expected that the outgoing 40 miles would be sufficient to get the battery sufficiently charged to pass the check at the start of the return trip. However, I also suspect that temperature is a factor in the software's deliberations.What was the ambient temperature?

I'm also baffled by the characteristics of the batteries used for the stop-start systems. On Friday morning my HR-V's battery was 11.8V after standing for 3 weeks. The engine started fine followed by a 4 mile trip to the local Honda agent for the annual service which reported the battery as good at 12.32V.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on March 18, 2019, 09:33:14 AM
Done a decent drive today - 80 mile return trip on mainly motorways and other dual carriageways. It is still showing the battery symbol - ie the battery is too flat for it to activate - seems a bit odd to me, I would have thought the 80 mile trip would have done the business.
You might have fallen foul of the battery condition check which is done at the start of the trip although, if your 80 miles was split as 2 x 40 miles, then I would have expected that the outgoing 40 miles would be sufficient to get the battery sufficiently charged to pass the check at the start of the return trip. However, I also suspect that temperature is a factor in the software's deliberations.What was the ambient temperature?

I'm also baffled by the characteristics of the batteries used for the stop-start systems. On Friday morning my HR-V's battery was 11.8V after standing for 3 weeks. The engine started fine followed by a 4 mile trip to the local Honda agent for the annual service which reported the battery as good at 12.32V.

I would have been expecting a reading of 12.6 volts for a good battery. I was following a Merc in crawling traffic the other day and it obviously had stop-start, every time traffic moved the cars tail-lights dimmed and it gave a 'shudder' as it restarted - as an engineer it did not look good to me....   I saw an article on a guy with a Ford Mondeo who had a battery fail on his car, a new battery was fitted but he still had problems with battery charging, anyway after going to the Ford dealer and some investigation he was told that the wrong type of battery had been fitted and it was fooling the 'smart charge ' system that is designed to protect the battery from excess charging when battery temperature is low and also 'optimise' charging in normal driving to take load off alternator and improve MPG.  When correct type of battery ( AGM or calcium I think ) was fitted everything went back to normally.  So it seems that even the slight differences in charging voltage and chemistry between battery types can badly affect the operation of smart charging.  The heart of the smart charging is temperature sensor and a current flow sensor on battery positive terminal, and I think most modern cars have these, including Honda.

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10222.msg60874#msg60874
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: peteo48 on March 18, 2019, 10:15:37 AM
Done a decent drive today - 80 mile return trip on mainly motorways and other dual carriageways. It is still showing the battery symbol - ie the battery is too flat for it to activate - seems a bit odd to me, I would have thought the 80 mile trip would have done the business.
You might have fallen foul of the battery condition check which is done at the start of the trip although, if your 80 miles was split as 2 x 40 miles, then I would have expected that the outgoing 40 miles would be sufficient to get the battery sufficiently charged to pass the check at the start of the return trip. However, I also suspect that temperature is a factor in the software's deliberations.What was the ambient temperature?

I'm also baffled by the characteristics of the batteries used for the stop-start systems. On Friday morning my HR-V's battery was 11.8V after standing for 3 weeks. The engine started fine followed by a 4 mile trip to the local Honda agent for the annual service which reported the battery as good at 12.32V.

It was about 7 degrees going out and about 10 degrees when I started the return leg. I'm not overly concerned (I'm agnostic on these systems) but I might do a voltage test.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John A on March 18, 2019, 11:39:36 AM
It was about 7 degrees going out and about 10 degrees when I started the return leg. I'm not overly concerned (I'm agnostic on these systems) but I might do a voltage test.

I have a voltmeter like this,  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LED-Digital-Auto-Car-Truck-Cigarette-Lighter-Volt-Voltage-Meter-Monitor-12V-24V/202260870213?epid=10006309671&hash=item2f17aff445:g:5E0AAOSwnCxaqU83:rk:3:pf:1&frcectupt=true  quite interesting seeing the readings, eg if the headlights are on then it seems to default to 13.7v, and will still start stop, otherwise it can be around 12v when the engine is running and the battery is up to charge. Doesn't tell everything about the batteries state, but gives useful information.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John Ratsey on March 18, 2019, 01:08:32 PM
I would have been expecting a reading of 12.6 volts for a good battery.
So would I, but this battery has abnormal characteristics such as the ability to start the vehicle without hesitation with the voltage at 11.8V. However much I charge it it won't stay above 12.4V.

When correct type of battery ( AGM or calcium I think ) was fitted everything went back to normally.  So it seems that even the slight differences in charging voltage and chemistry between battery types can badly affect the operation of smart charging.  The heart of the smart charging is temperature sensor and a current flow sensor on battery positive terminal, and I think most modern cars have these, including Honda.
I have no reason to doubt that it's the original battery. However, the suitability of batteries fitted in the Mexican-made HR-Vs for the stop-start system is another matter. That said, I also had temperamental stop-start on the Mk 3 Jazz I owned before getting the HR-V. And yes, the HR-V has "intelligent" battery sensor. That's yet another unknown and could be a factor in peoples' variable experiences with the stop-start system.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on March 18, 2019, 01:16:15 PM
I would have been expecting a reading of 12.6 volts for a good battery.
So would I, but this battery has abnormal characteristics such as the ability to start the vehicle without hesitation with the voltage at 11.8V. However much I charge it it won't stay above 12.4V.

When correct type of battery ( AGM or calcium I think ) was fitted everything went back to normally.  So it seems that even the slight differences in charging voltage and chemistry between battery types can badly affect the operation of smart charging.  The heart of the smart charging is temperature sensor and a current flow sensor on battery positive terminal, and I think most modern cars have these, including Honda.
I have no reason to doubt that it's the original battery. However, the suitability of batteries fitted in the Mexican-made HR-Vs for the stop-start system is another matter. That said, I also had temperamental stop-start on the Mk 3 Jazz I owned before getting the HR-V. And yes, the HR-V has "intelligent" battery sensor. That's yet another unknown and could be a factor in peoples' variable experiences with the stop-start system.

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/start-stop-vehicle-battery-replacement-warning/

stop-start systems with intelligent charging are well dodgy and rely on the battery being the correct type- apparently some of the systems have charging systems with a memory effect that will never fully charge the battery.  It seems the cleverer things get the stupider they are..
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: peteo48 on March 18, 2019, 01:36:22 PM
Ahh - the old memory effect. I remember that from the brick like mobile phones we had at work in the early 1990s.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: peteo48 on March 19, 2019, 05:27:31 PM
Update!!

For the first time in 6 weeks the auto idle stop worked today after a short journey of 2 miles. Not that warm either. Got a mind of its own this system.

I can live with it though.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John Ratsey on March 19, 2019, 05:54:08 PM
For the first time in 6 weeks the auto idle stop worked today after a short journey of 2 miles. Not that warm either. Got a mind of its own this system.
I suspect that your 80 mile trip had done enough to get the relevant boxes ticked at the start of this journey.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John A on March 19, 2019, 06:00:37 PM
Ahh - the old memory effect. I remember that from the brick like mobile phones we had at work in the early 1990s.

A ni-cad battery problem.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on March 19, 2019, 06:47:26 PM
Ahh - the old memory effect. I remember that from the brick like mobile phones we had at work in the early 1990s.

A ni-cad battery problem.

It was the charging system that had the memory effect on some smart charge car systems ( not the battery ), they seem to remember some figure like 80% and will not charge battery above that figure.  There are dire warnings about jump starting Ford cars with smart charging system as excess voltages can be developed in the system, also warnings about charging the battery while still connected in the car - sometimes I think these systems are not so smart, in fact they are pretty dumb and only fitted to make make owners life difficult..
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: ColinB on March 19, 2019, 08:31:37 PM
For the first time in 6 weeks the auto idle stop worked today after a short journey of 2 miles. Not that warm either. Got a mind of its own this system.

Sounds like you've seen the same behaviour as I reported:
Just done the first motorway drive since returning, and I still got the "low battery" indication when I stopped after around 80 miles. However at traffic lights just a couple of miles after restarting it started functioning normally. That suggests there's something in the theory that the computer decides at the start of a drive if IS is going to function, and doesn't revisit that decision until a new drive starts even if all the inhibiting factors - such as battery charge - become OK during the drive.

At last, some consistency !
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: peteo48 on March 20, 2019, 11:09:04 AM
I agree Colin - uncannily similar behaviour.

If I was being complimentary to the system I would suggest it is quite conservative in deciding when the charge is sufficient.

Just been out today to Sainsburys. Round trip of 4 miles. System operated at every light!
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: orcadian on March 23, 2019, 10:58:39 AM
Well, I have an update on the situation with our car which we bought as a one owner ĎApprovedí Honda from a dealer.  We are about to go on a trip South from Orkney next week and can drop in at the dealers, firstly to get the mysterious service book fully filled in (another story on another thread!) more importantly to see what they say about the battery.  From December when we bought the car the stop/start has never worked, in spite of some long trips. On Wednesday I put the stabilised power supply on the battery and left it until Thursday morning, at which point the charge had gone down to about 100 milliamps - about as good as it gets from past experience with bike and car batteries.  It was a very bright dry day so no auto lights, no wipers needed, aircon off,  heater blower on number 1.  About the best set of circumstances.  Drove out to Finstown, about 13 miles and pulled into a lay-by, no stop start and battery symbol showing.  Drove into Kirkwall, another 7 miles or so and parked the car stop start worked for the first time ever.
It worked quite a few times after that so at least the actual system works.  Not used the car since so will see what happens next but I canít see the dealer doing anything about it, so I think we will just have to wait till the batter fails.  Genuine one seems to be about £170, £200 direct from Yuasa.  Years ago I sold our Citroen Berlingo van - itís still here in Orkney and still with original battery on a 55 plate and 140k miles.

Ian
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: peteo48 on March 23, 2019, 11:51:42 AM
Hopefully Ian, it is just the vagaries of the system as is definitely the case with mine. As above, mine is now working after a six week lay off - the longest time of non functioning so far.

There is obviously some internal logic to how the system works that is at variance with human logic. So - 80 mile return trip on good roads last Sunday - must have charged the battery up. You would then expect it (the stop start) to work on the Monday. It continued not working on the Monday but, on the Tuesday, decided to start working again and has worked ever since - indeed kicking in when the engine is probably not up to optimum temperature.

My advice would be not to stress unduly about it. You could get yourself into a tedious cycle of taking the car back and forwards to the dealer and still not resolving the issue. I'd focus on the fact that it is now working and accept it is quite a sensitive system.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John Ratsey on March 23, 2019, 12:04:00 PM
The system is happiest when the vehicle is in daily use, even if only shortish journeys, and gets upset (confused) when use is less frequent even if the journeys are longer. In my experience it's more temperamental during winter months with lower temperatures. As my usage is usually fewer but longer trips I'm resigned to putting the battery on charge the day before in the hope and expectation that the auto-stop will then be happy about the battery condition.

I suspect that the Honda engineers have made the logic over-cautious in the quest for ensuring that the engine would never auto-stop and then hesitate, or fail, to restart which would infuriate customers a lot more than the engine not stopping when expected.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: orcadian on March 23, 2019, 01:10:39 PM
Thanks Peteo and John,
Yes Iíve come to accept that the Honda architecture designer boffins know better than we do - and would not want the wrath of customers whose cars wonít start in a queue on a motorway.  I also have a 2000 Supercharged Daimler and if the battery is less than fully charged it throws up all kinds of Ďfruit machineí messages on the display indicating that there are multiple expensive faults which disappear almost immediately - all it needed was a Ďcharge the damn batteryí message.

As Iíve said many times, Iím not really that bothered about the stop start, especially here in Orkney but wanted to be able to poke the dealer with a sharp stick if it needed a battery so early in its life with us.  We both still love the car though and Iíve now had all the wheels off to check everything the ĎApprovedí label should have thrown up.  I had to resort to a very large Thor rawhide hammer to get the wheels to come off to clean the alloy fur from the centre bosses - they had never been off - ever!  Iíve always had a chuckle to myself when I see Ďguaranteed used carsí Yes they can guarantee they have been used!

What with the blank service book, an old jack included (which should not have been) which is stamped Audi VW and no initial V5 plus the paint chips not being attended to as agreed I really should have put it in the hands of Mother Honda - that Dealership is definitely off my list - their multi point check list is a farce.

Thanks again,
Ian
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Downsizer on March 23, 2019, 01:22:43 PM
You shock me when you say the price of a new battery is £170!  I paid the AA £70 for fitting a Yuasa replacement for my Mk 2 when I got stuck; is the battery for the Mk3 so very different?
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: peteo48 on March 23, 2019, 01:58:43 PM
The system is happiest when the vehicle is in daily use, even if only shortish journeys, and gets upset (confused) when use is less frequent even if the journeys are longer. In my experience it's more temperamental during winter months with lower temperatures. As my usage is usually fewer but longer trips I'm resigned to putting the battery on charge the day before in the hope and expectation that the auto-stop will then be happy about the battery condition.

I suspect that the Honda engineers have made the logic over-cautious in the quest for ensuring that the engine would never auto-stop and then hesitate, or fail, to restart which would infuriate customers a lot more than the engine not stopping when expected.

That is almost certainly covers my experience John. It doesn't get used every day and the issues are almost always in the cooler weather.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: sghc on March 23, 2019, 03:01:00 PM
The stop-start actually is barred from working if you have the ventilation airflow directed to Windscreen, whether or not you are using the AC, just as it is inhibited when the AC is operating. Try it! Press firmly! Quite apart from cold engine or in any circumstances when any engine might be less easy to start (Never mind about autostarting).
I was sceptical at first as to the refinement of the stop start mechanism, but in the Jazz its really smooth compared to other brands of my experience. I now see no point in disliking it.
In fact, unlike others I'm reading here for the first time, its a very modern car, better then even the excellent previous Jazz in several ways, and I just have to get used to its various new ways, and agree to like it and stop carping! We weren't forced to buy one!
However the feeble dipped-headlights for me are something else, and a disappointment. No-one ever takes a test drive in the dark! The very latest EX now has LED headlights and the legally required auto levelling sensors, so regrettably not possible to upgrade an ES Navi grade to LED.   :(
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John A on March 23, 2019, 03:43:42 PM
You shock me when you say the price of a new battery is £170!  I paid the AA £70 for fitting a Yuasa replacement for my Mk 2 when I got stuck; is the battery for the Mk3 so very different?

The stop start battery in my 2016 CVT car is maybe 50% bigger than the one in my 2014 manual, non-stop / start car.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: orcadian on March 23, 2019, 03:54:54 PM
Yes,
The mk 3 battery is very different from the one on earlier non stop/start cars.  Itís described as EFB (extreme flooded battery) Yuasa YBX 7053.  I would not want to move away from OE spec for the battery on a supposedly Ďintelligentí but sometimes stupid system.
Iíll also try the windscreen off position on the controls but ours is SE so has the rotary system.
Ian
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John Ratsey on March 23, 2019, 05:18:33 PM
However the feeble dipped-headlights for me are something else, and a disappointment. No-one ever takes a test drive in the dark! The very latest EX now has LED headlights and the legally required auto levelling sensors, so regrettably not possible to upgrade an ES Navi grade to LED.   :(
Slightly off-topic but the solution for your headlights is discussed here https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=8738.msg67466#msg67466 (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=8738.msg67466#msg67466). Not cheap, but well worth the investment in my experience.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: peteo48 on March 23, 2019, 05:42:49 PM
The stop-start actually is barred from working if you have the ventilation airflow directed to Windscreen, whether or not you are using the AC, just as it is inhibited when the AC is operating. Try it! Press firmly! Quite apart from cold engine or in any circumstances when any engine might be less easy to start (Never mind about autostarting).
I was sceptical at first as to the refinement of the stop start mechanism, but in the Jazz its really smooth compared to other brands of my experience. I now see no point in disliking it.


Interesting. Presumably when it is set to windscreen only? I have mine set at screen and footwell more or less permanently and the aircon is on more often than not.

The pattern with mine is that it stops working for an extended period and then kicks in again. I can live with it, after all I managed without such a system until I bought this car.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: andruec on March 23, 2019, 08:07:45 PM
The stop-start actually is barred from working if you have the ventilation airflow directed to Windscreen, whether or not you are using the AC, just as it is inhibited when the AC is operating. Try it! Press firmly! Quite apart from cold engine or in any circumstances when any engine might be less easy to start (Never mind about autostarting).
I was sceptical at first as to the refinement of the stop start mechanism, but in the Jazz its really smooth compared to other brands of my experience. I now see no point in disliking it.


Interesting. Presumably when it is set to windscreen only? I have mine set at screen and footwell more or less permanently and the aircon is on more often than not.
Same here. I have climate control but have found that during winter I have to override it and set it to windscreen and feet. But my idle stop continues to function any time I bring the vehicle to a complete halt with the foot brake depressed. Totally reliable and predictable.

Only difference is that my car gets used at least 6 times a week and most journeys are at least ten miles.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John Ratsey on March 24, 2019, 07:15:56 AM
Interesting. Presumably when it is set to windscreen only? I have mine set at screen and footwell more or less permanently and the aircon is on more often than not.
I would add that auto-stop not working due to cabin heating / cooling should result in the A/C symbol, not the battery symbol, being show as the reason for auto-stop not working. Pressing the ECO button on my HR-V widens the difference between target and actual temperatures tolerated by the auto-stop system. I can't remember if the Mk 3 Jazz also has the ECO button.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Downsizer on March 24, 2019, 09:26:02 AM
Yes,
The mk 3 battery is very different from the one on earlier non stop/start cars.  Itís described as EFB (extreme flooded battery) Yuasa YBX 7053.  I would not want to move away from OE spec for the battery on a supposedly Ďintelligentí but sometimes stupid system.
Iíll also try the windscreen off position on the controls but ours is SE so has the rotary system.
Ian
If an EFB battery is so much more expensive than a traditional lead acid one, and is needed for the auto-stop feature, it begs the question of the overall benefit.  The fuel saving is so small that the extra battery cost will never be recovered.  So the only benefit of auto-stop must be reduced pollution in town centres.  But how much extra pollution is produced in the manufacture of the more complex EFB unit?
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: orcadian on March 24, 2019, 10:56:12 AM
Yes Downsizer,
The bigger picture!  Iíve been banging on about this encouragement to buy electric vehicles without looking at the bigger picture.  Yes, I can see the benefit of stop start in towns but here in the frozen North, it is rarely going to happen and as you say an expensive battery required.  Same with catalytic converters, only any good when very hot on a motorway, total negative effect on the school run journeys.  I still maintain that my 19 year old 4 litre Supercharged V8 has been less harmful to the planet overall than someone buying a new vehicle every 2 years.  How long will it be before some Government Ďthink tankí (now thereís an oxymoron) decides we should all drive without lights to save harmful emissions caused by the drag on the alternator.  Must go now, all todayís rants used up and Nurse is here with the medication 😉
Ian
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: zzaj on March 24, 2019, 10:57:48 AM
Yes,
The mk 3 battery is very different from the one on earlier non stop/start cars.  Itís described as EFB (extreme flooded battery) Yuasa YBX 7053.  I would not want to move away from OE spec for the battery on a supposedly Ďintelligentí but sometimes stupid system.
Iíll also try the windscreen off position on the controls but ours is SE so has the rotary system.
Ian
If an EFB battery is so much more expensive than a traditional lead acid one, and is needed for the auto-stop feature, it begs the question of the overall benefit.  The fuel saving is so small that the extra battery cost will never be recovered.  So the only benefit of auto-stop must be reduced pollution in town centres.  But how much extra pollution is produced in the manufacture of the more complex EFB unit?

I think you are exactly right.

It just seems to shift the onus for the pollution away from the car manufacturer to someone else at a greater overall cost both financial and environmental.

That's the problem with targets. They invariably delivery the wrong outcomes because they misdirect the issue.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: andruec on March 24, 2019, 04:38:38 PM
My idle stop only ever fails to kick in shortly after starting off and the symbols I get are entirely reasonable. A thermometer with a line through it (engine too cold) or AC with a line through it (cabin too cold or in summer too hot).

The only time I've seen battery is in a very long queue and it takes a surprisingly long time before that appears.

Anyway I'm finally picking my new car up tomorrow. Fate of the planet by damned - but I haven't sired any kids so that's my contribution to the problem ;)
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: peteo48 on March 24, 2019, 05:00:57 PM
Enjoy the new car and hopefully you'll stick around with first impressions? Always good to get feedback from people moving to a different make and model.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: peteo48 on April 12, 2019, 12:57:34 PM
Just a little update. I think I might have said earlier that I went for about 6 weeks with no Auto Idle Stop. Not immediately after but soon after a trip to North Wales, it came back on for a day. Since then, nothing and that includes over the last few days a 220 mile round trip to Beverley in Yorkshire. On that trip, one of my walking group pals said his Fiesta 1.0 Eco Boost takes long holidays from operating and he does quite a few miles more than me.

It is quite weird. I assume my battery is fully charged after the Beverley trip. I shan't be taking any action because I'm not overly enamoured of the system but it is genuinely mystifying. If I look back to last year, it seemed to work more often than not.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: monkeydave on April 12, 2019, 05:30:42 PM
think yourself lucky, i pulled out the petrol garage to the exit and it stopped the engine as i forgot to push the button, what a pain, i never use it, and as my instict thinks it is stalling (which it isnt) i floor the clutch and it restarts. this is the first car with stop start i have had, but as ive always said petrol is cheap compared to starter motors or bearings, especially when i get 50mpg and its not even run in yet, that why i push the button every time

i was hoping you could turn it off permantly in the menu but its just the low battery or cold icons you can have on or off so no joy, all the cars i have seen at the dealer the mechanics always keep the rear heated window on as that cancels it but its not good for the heater to be on all the time

although when i picked my car up on the way home it did have the battery indicator stop/start icon on but after 60 miles it has worked properly ever since, on the times i forget to push the button the engine has started imidiately after pressing the clutch in, i have had the cold and stop start icon on as well

i also got the tyre light on but once i reset it, it has been fine since

Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: peteo48 on April 12, 2019, 05:56:10 PM
Yes - I'm a bit of a sceptic about these systems. My understanding is that a car uses very little fuel at idle in any event. As regards the wear and tear issues I gather the starter motor is uprated to cope.

Before I bought my current Jazz I test drove a hybrid Yaris and the system works very well in these cars because the initial movement from rest is in electric mode and the whole thing seems much smoother.

The main purpose, according to cynics, of stop start systems is to allow car companies to game emission and fuel consumption tests. The key advantage, to my mind, is the reduction of pollution at pavement level when the car is stationary.

In my case, that doesn't seem relevant because it doesn't work that often!
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on April 12, 2019, 06:15:04 PM
Not a Jazz but a Suzuki Vitara AWD 1.4 boosterjet - my brother has one and the first thing he does when he gets in the car is turn off the idle stop and auto braking ( the auto braking has given him problems on narrow country lanes when trying to overtake - when it has detected the hedge or some other extraneous object and applied the brakes ) - most of these systems are badly thought out and only fitted to get past new legislation in the cheapest possible way - does not bode well for autonomous vehicles - hasn't it gone quiet on that front for quite a while now?
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on April 12, 2019, 07:44:50 PM
Yes - I'm a bit of a sceptic about these systems. My understanding is that a car uses very little fuel at idle in any event. As regards the wear and tear issues I gather the starter motor is uprated to cope.

Before I bought my current Jazz I test drove a hybrid Yaris and the system works very well in these cars because the initial movement from rest is in electric mode and the whole thing seems much smoother.

The main purpose, according to cynics, of stop start systems is to allow car companies to game emission and fuel consumption tests. The key advantage, to my mind, is the reduction of pollution at pavement level when the car is stationary.

In my case, that doesn't seem relevant because it doesn't work that often!

According to article I saw on direct injection Honda system the fuel injection timing alters completely at low engine speeds, it is injected almost at top of compression stroke and air/fuel ratio is something like 60:1 as engine speed and power requirement increases the timing changes to inject the fuel on induction stroke at a normal 14.5:1 - so from those figures fuel usage at tickover is absolutely miniscule. Makes you wonder why they bother stopping engine ( except to comply with regulations ). Don't know if the change of injection timing coincides with Atkinson / Otto cycle change but it makes sense if you are going to push some of the compressed charge back into inlet manifold on Atkinson mode to inject the fuel as late as possible so you only push air into manifold and no fuel..
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: peteo48 on April 12, 2019, 10:25:04 PM
Not a Jazz but a Suzuki Vitara AWD 1.4 boosterjet - my brother has one and the first thing he does when he gets in the car is turn off the idle stop and auto braking ( the auto braking has given him problems on narrow country lanes when trying to overtake - when it has detected the hedge or some other extraneous object and applied the brakes ) - most of these systems are badly thought out and only fitted to get past new legislation in the cheapest possible way - does not bode well for autonomous vehicles - hasn't it gone quiet on that front for quite a while now?

It has a bit. We are seeing a lot of the technology coming on stream in dribs and drabs and some of it is very useful - adaptive cruise control gets a lot of plaudits from users as do other bits and pieces but I also sense a resistance to going the whole hog. Do people really want a completely automated life with no human involvement?
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on April 13, 2019, 10:51:33 AM
Not a Jazz but a Suzuki Vitara AWD 1.4 boosterjet - my brother has one and the first thing he does when he gets in the car is turn off the idle stop and auto braking ( the auto braking has given him problems on narrow country lanes when trying to overtake - when it has detected the hedge or some other extraneous object and applied the brakes ) - most of these systems are badly thought out and only fitted to get past new legislation in the cheapest possible way - does not bode well for autonomous vehicles - hasn't it gone quiet on that front for quite a while now?

It has a bit. We are seeing a lot of the technology coming on stream in dribs and drabs and some of it is very useful - adaptive cruise control gets a lot of plaudits from users as do other bits and pieces but I also sense a resistance to going the whole hog. Do people really want a completely automated life with no human involvement?

His Suzuki has adaptive cruise control and it gets used regularly, IMHO normal cruise control is not much use in UK due to amount of traffic,  my wifes Jazz Si has normal cruise control and has hardly been used,  I don't think she knows how to use it and I tried it a few times and got fed up of continually tapping the buttons to increase or reduce speed,  I had cars with cruise control when we lived overseas and it was fine on their wide open traffic free roads, but i have found that even on UK motorways it is a waste of time, except maybe in roadworks at 50 mph.  I can remember the time when if you hit 'resume' button when pulling away from traffic lights etc the car would accelerate quite briskly up to set speed ( automatic cars ) - but they have even taken that enjoyable bit out now as CC won't work below 20 mph.....
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: orcadian on April 13, 2019, 11:07:10 AM
Fully agree about standard cruise, continually having to decreases / increase.  Just watch how many vehicles overtake you, because you have the nerve to be in front of them and then slow down, sometimes by as much as 10mph as soon as they have pulled in front often rather sharply. Mind you, in all of the human anatomy books I have studied, the dicks are always at the front.  I also love that rocket ship feeling when you just press a resume button - does that on the GoldWing and the Daimler.

Ian
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: peteo48 on April 13, 2019, 03:06:02 PM
I agree about normal cruise. On my trip last week to Beverley I had to negotiate the M60 and then the M62 - it wasn't until we had got well past the Leeds conurbation that the traffic thinned out enough to use it. I see it as a nice to have if only to rest the right leg for a bit on a long journey but adaptive cruise is the one to have.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Jocko on April 13, 2019, 04:29:52 PM
As I have said elsewhere, I had cruise control on my Volvo S40 and I used it constantly, even in quiet 30 mph zones. You just accelerated up to the speed you wanted and hit "On" and that was more or less it.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: peteo48 on April 13, 2019, 05:52:27 PM
As I have said elsewhere, I had cruise control on my Volvo S40 and I used it constantly, even in quiet 30 mph zones. You just accelerated up to the speed you wanted and hit "On" and that was more or less it.

Oddly enough, on the way back from Beverley, one of my pals said he used the cruise control on his Nissan Leaf almost constantly as well and even at very low speeds. I can't seem to get into it unless the road is clearish or I'm in a long convoy moving at a steady speed.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: zzaj on April 13, 2019, 07:34:17 PM
As I have said elsewhere, I had cruise control on my Volvo S40 and I used it constantly, even in quiet 30 mph zones. You just accelerated up to the speed you wanted and hit "On" and that was more or less it.

Me too. I use mine a lot. Depend on the roads, driving style and traffic flow, I suppose.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: HondaJazzmike34 on October 18, 2019, 05:48:40 PM
The site is full of the problems with the Idle Stop on a Mk3 2015 Jazz 1.3 most posts of which I have read.  Seems the consensus is that all the interior control (heaters etc) should be off etc.etc. But I have a funny one. We bought the car in April 2019 from a main dealer, and all was well with the Idle Stop. We could switch it on and off at will getting the correct symbology. THEN in early October 2019 I came to the car one morning to find everything dead as a dodo. Checked the battery at just 4.5 Volts!! So organised a replacement independently from Europarts, got the 5year guaranteed type and installed it. Applied a smart charger for 24 hours which showed the battery full at 13.4 volts. BUT the Idle Stop has not working at all since, but then I had not seen in the manual that Honda specifies a "special" part number for a replacement battery. As an electronics engineer I do not understand this at all. Sound to me like another 'captive' Honda part scheme.
So what to do? Do I have to limp back to the dealer, or blame Europarts for not supplying a suitable replacement from the reg no etc?
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on October 18, 2019, 06:15:36 PM
Many Ford cars will not charge the battery properly if the 'wrong' battery is fitted ( this has no doubt spread to other makes of cars now ) - so just wondering if the replacement battery is 'the wrong chemistry' and the system cannot understand what the state of charge really is,  others on here with stop-start have had mysterious problems with the stop-start not working for a while and then it will start working - seems a bit fickle to me.

There is a video in this thread link about problems the Ford system has with charging battery if it is the 'wrong' type.

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10222.msg60870#msg60870

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/silver-calcium-batteries/
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: bill ericay on October 18, 2019, 07:39:54 PM
On the Honda Civic with start/stop an EFB battery has to be fitted, I assume it is the same on the Jazz.
Also, there is a Honda Technical letter which states when you charge the battery in the car to use the positive terminal on the battery  and the chassis ground as the two attachment points . If you attach charger directly to the battery terminals apparently the car doesn't accept the battery as being charged , and prevents start/ stop from working.
No, I don't know why !
If I can find it I will post the tech letter. 
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: bill ericay on October 18, 2019, 07:49:40 PM
Attachment attached hopefully !
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on October 18, 2019, 08:24:17 PM
On the Honda Civic with start/stop an EFB battery has to be fitted, I assume it is the same on the Jazz.
Also, there is a Honda Technical letter which states when you charge the battery in the car to use the positive terminal on the battery  and the chassis ground as the two attachment points . If you attach charger directly to the battery terminals apparently the car doesn't accept the battery as being charged , and prevents start/ stop from working.
No, I don't know why !
If I can find it I will post the tech letter. 

Seems that connecting the charger directly to battery takes the current flow sensor ( like the ELD on normal cars ) out of the loop so that nothing is sensing current flowing into the battery and the system is non the wiser that any current has gone into battery,  even though the terminal voltage of battery may be OK .  It looks like the system is set up to sense current flowing in and out of battery and some algorithm works out how much capacity is left rather than just relying on the terminal voltage of battery being OK.

Info on EFB batteries

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/agm-efb-explained/

Q. What are the differences between standard flooded and EFB batteries?
A. EFB batteries are an enhanced version of standard wet-flooded technology. The primary benefits of EFB technology are improved charge acceptance and greater cyclic durability when operating in a reduced state of charge (typical of Stop Start applications). As an approximation, EFB batteries will provide 270,000 engine starts, compared to 30,000 starts from standard flooded product.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: bill ericay on October 18, 2019, 09:30:04 PM
Well explained . Thanks Culzean.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John Ratsey on October 18, 2019, 10:10:20 PM
Try disconnecting / reconnecting the battery now that it is fully charged. The system might now recognise it as a fully charged battery.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on October 19, 2019, 10:45:06 AM
This is interesting article,  see the third option down 'Coulomb counting' - this basically measures the current entering a battery and compares it with what is leaving - so anything that disrupts this algorithm ( like changing the battery ) will cause problems.  I wonder if the system needs a reset when a known fully charged battery is in place ?  The 'impedance checking' may also be relevent,  as batteries discharge impedance for various states of charge can be checked - this is more accurate than simply measuring terminal voltage.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_measure_state_of_charge
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on December 23, 2019, 09:32:22 AM
As an addition to this thread and how tricky modern battery charging has become..

I have a +/- 12 year old Philips 3 head HQ9 shaver, I have newer ones but non of them shave as well - the newer Philips have different type of cutter - which IMHO is cr4p - also tried a braun foil shaver but that is not too good either -- any way back on subject.... I decided to treat the shaver to a new battery - a 3.7 volt 700ma/h Li-ion cell - same size as a single 'AA' battery but with solder tags.  I checked the voltage on the replacement battery and it was 3.6 volts,  so fairly well charged when I soldered it back in.  Now for the strange part,  after a couple of days the red light on shaver flashed and it would not start, so i charged it up fully - after one shave the red light flashed and it would not start again***, so I took cover off and checked battery voltage - it was 3,85 volts so fully charged.   I then had a light bulb moment ( literally ) and decided to unsolder one end of the battery - made a 12volt 5watt ( W5W ) bulb with a couple of wires soldered on and connected it across the battery for a couple of hours ( I checked Li-Ion battery specs and 2.8 volts was discharged voltage ) and when it reached 2.8 volts I resoldered the battery back in and recharged it in the shaver.  Well since then I have used it every day for about 10 days and it is fine,  the 'state of charge' charge indicator LEDs on the shaver handle ( 5 of them ) have just started dropping down.    It is obvious that by fitting a fully charged battery I had 'fooled' the coulomb counter circuitry in the shaver and the only way to fix it was to deplete the battery and recharge it in the shaver so the charging circuit knew exactly how much power had gone into battery.  I read on the battery sellers website that a few people have said the batteries are no good and would not take a charge etc. but it is obvious that the problem was with the shaver circuitry not the battery.... The only real way to check the state of charge of Li-Ion batteries is by coulomb counting ( as is done in phones and laptops and Dyson vacuum cleaners etc. ),  so this will be the case with BEV as well, so in the case of swappable batteries for BEV  the fancy electronics controlling charging would have to stay with the battery - or at least some kind of module with the battery history in it.

note *** The shaver on-off switch is not connected directly between battery and motor,  it is wired into an integrated circuit and when you press it the button has to 'ask permission' to run the motor,  and if the coulomb counter is not happy it says 'no'...
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: jazzaro on December 23, 2019, 11:03:40 AM
Last month, after some weeks of hard work for the battery (many 1-2 minutes trips, cold and wet weather), after having noticed that the light drop during startup was higher than usual, I left the battery  in charge for a whole night, and the days after I had the alert "S&S not working for low battery". Obviously I charged the battery connecting the charger in the wrong way...
Then I found this thread, I read it, I read the tech note from Honda, I charged the battery for another night in the right way and now the start&stop works again.
I found some battery models for replacing the OEM  Yuasa YBX7053:
-Banner 55515
-Varta Silver Dynamic EFB N-55/80B24L
-Bosch ST Hightec EFB 70B24L (N55L)
When I write this post, only Yuasa and Banner are sold in Europe.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: monkeydave on December 27, 2019, 05:06:10 PM
Last month, after some weeks of hard work for the battery (many 1-2 minutes trips, cold and wet weather), after having noticed that the light drop during startup was higher than usual, I left the battery  in charge for a whole night, and the days after I had the alert "S&S not working for low battery". Obviously I charged the battery connecting the charger in the wrong way...
Then I found this thread, I read it, I read the tech note from Honda, I charged the battery for another night in the right way and now the start&stop works again.
I found some battery models for replacing the OEM  Yuasa YBX7053:
-Banner 55515
-Varta Silver Dynamic EFB N-55/80B24L
-Bosch ST Hightec EFB 70B24L (N55L)
When I write this post, only Yuasa and Banner are sold in Europe.

did you leave the battery connected to the car?

is it possible to charge one of these batteries and still have it connected to a car, i have a fairly modern charger with trickle and led lights for fully charged etc, i will be leaving my car standing for a week or two at a time as my work has moved very close to home but i will still do 120 miles nearly every sat for personal use
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John Ratsey on December 27, 2019, 06:16:18 PM
did you leave the battery connected to the car?

is it possible to charge one of these batteries and still have it connected to a car, i have a fairly modern charger with trickle and led lights for fully charged etc, i will be leaving my car standing for a week or two at a time as my work has moved very close to home but i will still do 120 miles nearly every sat for personal use
Yes, and it's best to connect the appropriate charger lead to the vehicle side of the battery sensor, not directly to the terminal, as it might help the vehicle to know that the battery has been charged.

My experience is that if the vehicle has been standing for a week, particularly during the winter months, then the vehicle may decide that there's not enough charge in the battery for the auto-stop to work (I suspect that the ambient temperature is a factor in the algorithm). Using the charger on the day before travelling should ensure that the battery charge is OK.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: monkeydave on December 27, 2019, 06:45:39 PM
do you mean put the positive to the terminal under the plastic cover and the negative to the metal plate that is connected to the negative terminal?

thanks
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: ColinB on December 28, 2019, 07:46:19 AM
I find all this talk of needing to top-up the battery charge rather puzzling. I left my Jazz unattended in the garage for 5 weeks during the coldest part of last winter, and it started first time with no fuss on our return. The stop/start didnít work immediately, but that happens anyway in cold-soak conditions even if the car is used regularly (I put it down to one of the inhibiting conditions being battery internal temperature).

We also had an event where ďsomeone elseĒ left one of the map reading lights on overnight so the battery flattened completely; AA duly called, recharged (without removing from car) enough to start the engine, and no problems thereafter.

So Iíd say thereís no need to faff around with supplementary chargers all the time, if the car has a healthy battery and you charge it by driving then itís quite capable of sorting itself out. Of course, if the battery isnít healthy then itís time for a new battery rather than continually trickle-charging it.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Jocko on December 28, 2019, 09:33:15 AM
I am off the same opinion. It is 30 years since I owned a battery charger and even longer since I needed to use it. And back then I ran all I could afford, old bangers with knackered batteries.
If I have a cranking issue I cannot explain I just fit a new battery. As I have said elsewhere, a car that won't start is only good for keeping chickens in.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John Ratsey on December 28, 2019, 10:24:18 AM
do you mean put the positive to the terminal under the plastic cover and the negative to the metal plate that is connected to the negative terminal?
Yes, lift plastic cover to connect +ve charger cable (red clip) to the terminal. However, the -ve should not be directly connected to the battery terminal but to the end of the earth strap nearest the battery.

For those who question the need for this charging, I agree that it's not necessary if the only concern is to be able to start the engine. However, I find it frustrating that, if the vehicle has been standing for a week, and I head off on a long journey then the auto-stop won't work until the engine has been restarted (which might be a couple of hours later).

The voltage on my HR-V's battery is only about  12.3V the day after a long trip and drops to 12.1V within a few days of the vehicle not being used. At that voltage, auto-stop isn't happy. The voltage is down to about 11.8V after 3 weeks standing but the engine started fine. All these voltages are lower than I would expect for a healthy lead acid battery but my local Honda dealer assured me, when I left the vehicle with them for several days last spring, that the battery is fine. I wonder whether these stop-start compatible batteries have different voltage characteristics which Honda forgot to program into the stop-start algorithm.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: orcadian on December 28, 2019, 04:22:05 PM
Hi John,
Thanks for the many informative replies you have posted.  It certainly seems to have created a lot of comment.  Weíve had our Sept 2015 SE for just over a year now and still pleased with it.  As my original post outlined, the stop/start didnít work for months in the winter, then settled down to being predictable during the summer months but has now reverted to its original old self.  Not bothered now after reading these posts and as the car is approaching 4 1/2 years old, if it needed a battery then even at this ridiculous price itís no big deal.  One observation though is that there have been occasions when air con, lights, heater, radio have all been on after the car had been standing a few days (in summer) and the stop start worked, once after only  6 miles when I stopped to drop off a parcel at the post office. GRRR!

Ian

Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John A on December 28, 2019, 07:34:45 PM
My 2016 CVT stop / starts a lot lot less in the winter, so unless our cars have the same fault, then it's just a "feature". IMO.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on December 28, 2019, 07:51:57 PM
I will never buy a car with auto stop.....drives me mad.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John A on December 28, 2019, 09:01:09 PM
I will never buy a car with auto stop.....drives me mad.

Then you're missing out as the start / stop is well worked on the Jazz. Only thing that grates for me is that I have to keep the brake pedal pressed, so possibly annoying people behind me.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: jazzaro on December 29, 2019, 10:43:07 AM


did you leave the battery connected to the car?

is it possible to charge one of these batteries and still have it connected to a car, i have a fairly modern charger with trickle and led lights for fully charged etc, i will be leaving my car standing for a week or two at a time as my work has moved very close to home but i will still do 120 miles nearly every sat for personal use
I left the battery connected, charging it as shown by the tecnhical note. I think that a usage like yours won't be hard for a battery, the self-discharge is not heavy in a 1-2 week stop and not enough to inhibit the start. No worries if you don't use an anti-theft or other similar device.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on December 29, 2019, 11:26:18 AM
Battery capacity checking is notoriously unreliable due to many things, ambient and battery temperature, age of battery, charging inefficiencies - the best name for a battery 'fuel' gauge would be a 'guessometer' . 

This does not bode well for accurate Battery capacity checking ( remaining range ) in electric vehicles.

https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/archive/battery_fuel_gauge_factual_or_fallacy
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Dayjo on December 30, 2019, 07:48:04 PM
Yes, lift plastic cover to connect +ve charger cable (red clip) to the terminal. However, the -ve should not be directly connected to the battery terminal but to the end of the earth strap nearest the battery.

Thanks for the explanation, John.

So...
 The -ve charger clip, goes to the end of the L shaped piece, where it is crimped to the black earth lead.
Allowing whatever is in the black box, on the other end of the L shaped piece to do it's job. Whatever that is.....

(https://i.postimg.cc/mrt3CCHS/IMG_20191229_114112.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


It were all a lot simpler, when I were a lad.....  ;)
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on December 30, 2019, 09:09:59 PM
This link about BMS ( battery monitoring / management systems ) on stop start batteries - shows the electronic module on the battery terminal - any power going in or out of battery has to pass through the module to tell the control circuit what is happening,  which is why putting the battery charger clips straight onto the battery posts bypasses the system..

https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/how_to_monitor_a_battery
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: RobHam on April 03, 2020, 09:24:32 PM
My 2018 Jazz CVT has also suffered from the Auto Stop somehow getting disabled, indicated on the dashboard display by a Yellow line through the A and a Battery symbol, hence infering the Battery/EDLC combination have insufficant charge.

I found a method from another Honda forum that has a procedure to reset the Auto Stop function.
This procedure has worked for my Jazz.

If the Auto Stop is not working indicated by a Yellow line through the A and a Battery symbol.

1. Pull over somewhere safe.
2. Turn off the engine.
3. Pull the bonnet release catch.
4. Start the engine, you should see the Bonnet Open indicator on the dashboard (if not then open the bonnet fully).
5. Turn off the engine.
6. Get out of the car and close the bonnet correctly.

The Auto stop function then seems to work properly.


There are a number of forum posts that infer that opening and closing the bonnet without starting the engine actually causes the Auto Stop function to somehow get disabled.


Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: ColinS on April 04, 2020, 07:35:33 AM
If the Auto Stop is not working indicated by a Yellow line through the A and a Battery symbol.

1. Pull over somewhere safe.
2. Turn off the engine.
3. Pull the bonnet release catch.
4. Start the engine, you should see the Bonnet Open indicator on the dashboard (if not then open the bonnet fully).
5. Turn off the engine.
6. Get out of the car and close the bonnet correctly.

The Auto stop function then seems to work properly.


There are a number of forum posts that infer that opening and closing the bonnet without starting the engine actually causes the Auto Stop function to somehow get disabled.

I had to check if it was April 1st ;D
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Dayjo on April 04, 2020, 08:40:53 AM
My 2018 Jazz CVT has also suffered from the Auto Stop somehow getting disabled, indicated on the dashboard display by a Yellow line through the A and a Battery symbol, hence infering the Battery/EDLC combination have insufficant charge.

I found a method from another Honda forum that has a procedure to reset the Auto Stop function.
This procedure has worked for my Jazz.

If the Auto Stop is not working indicated by a Yellow line through the A and a Battery symbol.

1. Pull over somewhere safe.
2. Turn off the engine.
3. Pull the bonnet release catch.
4. Start the engine, you should see the Bonnet Open indicator on the dashboard (if not then open the bonnet fully).
5. Turn off the engine.
6. Get out of the car and close the bonnet correctly.

The Auto stop function then seems to work properly.


There are a number of forum posts that infer that opening and closing the bonnet without starting the engine actually causes the Auto Stop function to somehow get disabled.

I press a button, beside the shift lever, to disable the auto stop. Every journey.
 Doesn't everyone?  ;)
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: ColinB on April 04, 2020, 10:51:12 AM
My 2018 Jazz CVT has also suffered from the Auto Stop somehow getting disabled, indicated on the dashboard display by a Yellow line through the A and a Battery symbol, hence infering the Battery/EDLC combination have insufficant charge.
Not sure that means it's been "disabled" (by which I assume you mean it's somehow been permanently switched off). It just means that one of the huge number of inhibiting factors listed in the handbook has come into play to prevent the system stopping the engine. My car shows either that or the "low temperature" symbol much of the time over the winter months but it soon goes back to normal when the weather warms up or I do some longish trips. At present, if you're not doing many miles or only short trips it's likely that the charge level is low enough to inhibit the stop/start (but not so low that the car won't start when you turn the key).

That said, it would be logical to have the stop/start inhibited when the bonnet is open; you don't want the engine to restart without warning if some numpty has his fingers under the bonnet whilst the stop/start has stopped the engine. However you'd expect it to reset when the bonnet is closed.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John Ratsey on April 04, 2020, 01:38:31 PM
If the Auto Stop is not working indicated by a Yellow line through the A and a Battery symbol.

1. Pull over somewhere safe.
2. Turn off the engine.
3. Pull the bonnet release catch.
4. Start the engine, you should see the Bonnet Open indicator on the dashboard (if not then open the bonnet fully).
5. Turn off the engine.
6. Get out of the car and close the bonnet correctly.
One of the battery condition checks is only carried out before/when the engine is started. If this check fails then the autostop is disabled, even if the journey is long and there's plenty of opportunity to charge the battery. However, unless the battery charge state is very low then a few miles is sufficient to get the charge high enough that if the vehicle is stopped and the engine restarted then the battery check will be OK and autostop is happy. So next time try stopping and restarting the engine without opening the bonnet.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: equaliser on July 26, 2020, 06:18:22 PM
I tried that bonnet trick and it didn't work for me. Neither did charging the battery the 'correct way' but alas this afternoon, after a trip to Glasgow it's started working for the very first time! I left home, got to the multi-storey car park and it activated while waiting for the ticket. I'm getting quite good with the pedal pressure so as not to activate it when I don't want it (e.g. coming home to park up). It's only taken 30 days, three charges and 1000 miles  :D My Civic wasn't as temperamental, and it even had the same engine as the Jazz but much better logic I think!
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: BIGFELLAH on July 26, 2020, 06:49:26 PM
My stop start works very occasionally, and that is to often,
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Derkie54 on July 26, 2020, 07:02:04 PM
My stop start works very occasionally, and that is to often,

Couldn't agree more  :)
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Dayjo on July 26, 2020, 08:09:35 PM
My stop start works very occasionally, and that is to often,

My stop start never works, (mostly).
 Because I press the OFF button, as part of start up routine.....

(https://i.postimg.cc/6q1Ryds1/IMG-20200726-193823.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I hate, stop/ start......
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Kenneve on July 27, 2020, 08:27:37 AM
+1 to Dayjoís comment. Stop/start is a pita. All extra work for the starter motor & battery, for minimal savings in fuel.
I suppose if you are stuck in a traffic jam for some time, it might be justified, but otherwise No.
No mention has been made for leaving stop lights On, annoying following drivers, probably a case of ĎIím alright Jackí!!
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: 1643 on July 27, 2020, 10:39:11 AM
Fuel savings are noticeable but like some of you said you need to learn how to brake to bring it on or not when you donít want it. For example before entering a roundabout I donít want it to activate, but if Iím approaching traffic lights that have just turned red yes please!
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: equaliser on July 27, 2020, 10:41:54 AM
I totally agree that it can be a PITA, especially on the CVT models but I just wanted to make sure mine was working and there wasn't a problem with something else interfering with it's operation. I'll make good use of the off button when appropriate too although it's not too hard to learn how much braking effort activates it.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Jocko on July 27, 2020, 10:59:31 AM
Most traffic lights I encounter are familiar and I know which ones are short and which are long. If I approach a long light as it turns red I turn off the ignition. I then watch the lights in the other direction, if I can, otherwise I watch the pedestrian lights to be ready to start before or as soon as the light starts to change. A couple of junctions I use, the red is three or four minutes, so it is worth the effort. I don't switch off until the engine has warmed up and the blue light is out.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: jazzaro on July 27, 2020, 03:46:34 PM
I totally agree that it can be a PITA, especially on the CVT models but I just wanted to make sure mine was working and there wasn't a problem with something else interfering with it's operation. I'll make good use of the off button when appropriate too although it's not too hard to learn how much braking effort activates it.
Mine is working again, maybe hotter temperatures help to keep the battery voltage in a correct range. Maybe.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: ColinB on July 27, 2020, 06:02:17 PM
My stop start works very occasionally, and that is to often,
Couldn't agree more  :)
My stop start never works, (mostly).
 Because I press the OFF button, as part of start up routine.....

I hate, stop/ start......

I simply don't understand these sentiments. Why don't you like it? You may object in principle to manufacturers introducing it in order to "game" their emissions & fuel consumption figures, but frankly there's nothing you can do to affect that. And spiting them by turning it off is only affecting you, by increasing your fuel consumption infinitesimally, whilst people near your idling car are getting the "benefit" of your increased emissions. Stop-start works pretty seamlessly on the Jazz (at least on the manual version), it doesn't get in the way of normal driving. Are you worried that maybe it's damaging the car in some way? If anyone has any evidence of that please publish it, but meanwhile there are plenty of petrolheads on the web saying that cars are designed for it so damage is unlikely, for example:
https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-advice/myth-busting-stop-start-damage-engine/
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/stop-start-long-term-impact-your-car-s-engine
https://www.nowcar.com/blog/archive/does-auto-stop-start-technology-harm-engines/#:~:text=True%2C%20starting%20up%20the%20engine,%2Dand%2Dtear%20takes%20place.&text=Plus%2C%20auto%20start%2Fstop%20technology,key%20is%20in%20the%20ignition).
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109687_dont-start-stop-systems-wear-out-your-cars-starter
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/road-safety/stop-start-engines-and-engine-idling-the-law/

Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on July 27, 2020, 07:35:07 PM
https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/the-truth-about-automatic-engine-stop-start-systems

In the comments section one bloke reckoned he disabled auto stop start by disconnecting the sensor on battery negative terminal......
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: ColinB on July 27, 2020, 08:31:12 PM
https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/the-truth-about-automatic-engine-stop-start-systems

In the comments section one bloke reckoned he disabled auto stop start by disconnecting the sensor on battery negative terminal......

Sorry mate I really don't see any significant evidence there about why it's a bad thing. He clearly doesn't like it, and he's entitled to his opinion. But he says himself most of the "reasons" put forward by people aren't justified. So he's left with "I don't like it because car makers make it compulsory" (that's opinion, not evidence) and a vague "It's unrefined when it restarts" (which seems to be based on experience with diesels, and certainly doesn't apply to the Jazz). And as for "There's no benefit to the owner, only to the manufacturer", he's missed the point that if the manufacturers didn't do something like this he wouldn't be able to buy the car because the makers wouldn't be allowed to sell it. Nor does he mention the positive effect on local air pollution of switching off ICEs when queuing (which to me seems probably more important than the minuscule fuel saving).

So that link doesn't help me understand why anyone would feel so strongly about it they insist on switching the system off every time they get in their car.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: jazzaro on July 27, 2020, 09:35:56 PM
https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/the-truth-about-automatic-engine-stop-start-systems

In the comments section one bloke reckoned he disabled auto stop start by disconnecting the sensor on battery negative terminal......

Sorry mate I really don't see any significant evidence there about why it's a bad thing. He clearly doesn't like it, and he's entitled to his opinion. But he says himself most of the "reasons" put forward by people aren't justified.
I agree.
If people  think this is a bad system for continuos restart, what should they think about hybrids like Jazz or Corolla, where the engine goes off every time you leave the gas pedal??
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John Ratsey on July 27, 2020, 10:48:23 PM
If people  think this is a bad system for continuos restart, what should they think about hybrids like Jazz or Corolla, where the engine goes off every time you leave the gas pedal??
However, a significant difference, at least for the hybrid Jazz (both Mk 2 and Mk 4 - I don't know about Toyota) is that the hybrid system generator attached to the engine briefly becomes a motor to get the engine turning over so there's no wear on a traditional starter motor. On the hybrids it's a matter of getting the vehicle moving using electricity and then add fuel if the engine is needed to provide more power.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: MicktheMonster on July 27, 2020, 11:05:47 PM
I must admit to being baffled by all this resistance to stop/start systems, I'm on my 2nd car with it and drive work vehicles with it, I just ignore it & let it cut in & out as it sees fit, it doesn't cause any issues as far as I can tell, you don't have to change the way you drive and everyone benefits from a better environment, using slightly less fuel and its quieter.
Its pretty standard on most cars nowadays and requires no additional effort from the driver.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: jazzaro on July 28, 2020, 08:42:50 AM
If people  think this is a bad system for continuos restart, what should they think about hybrids like Jazz or Corolla, where the engine goes off every time you leave the gas pedal??
However, a significant difference, at least for the hybrid Jazz (both Mk 2 and Mk 4 - I don't know about Toyota) is that the hybrid system generator attached to the engine briefly becomes a motor to get the engine turning over so there's no wear on a traditional starter motor. On the hybrids it's a matter of getting the vehicle moving using electricity and then add fuel if the engine is needed to provide more power.
Yes, but it's the only difference: thermal shocks, missing lubrication, oil polluting, misfiring and so on should be the same.
To be honest, a D15A engine could suffer from problems like wearing if fitted with S&S, since it's been built in last eighties... But now our engines should be problem free.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: peteo48 on July 28, 2020, 10:47:53 AM
I think stop/start systems are a good thing mainly for air quality. The fuel savings are, as has been pointed out, slight. Where they are a nuisance, as pointed out by equaliser, is in the CVT. I don't like having to keep my foot on the footbrake because it's slightly uncomfortable at longer stops. In saying that, a lot of manual drivers keep their foot on the footbrake as well - it seems to be the way people drive these days.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Dayjo on July 28, 2020, 09:41:45 PM
After more than two years of automatically,  disabling auto stop. Frankly, I couldn't remember, just, why I did it.

So, this morning we drove our usual journey to the shops, and back. Apart from a momentary stop/ start, in the car park, all was normal.

This afternoon we did the same thing. Different shops, the other direction.
 All was normal, until a mile from home. An uphill right turn across approaching traffic. Unknown to me, the engine was stopped, adding another 1/2 second to the already slow acceleration time! No problem. But unsettling.

It works so rarely, it catches me out...... That's why I don't like it!

I live in a rural location, with little traffic. Rarely do any town driving. Never, any city driving.
 If the car is at a standstill, the handbrake is applied. Always has been, for the past 55 yrs.

My driving style is not compatible with stop/ start. Nothing to do with, "wearing it out".

Incidentally.
 Seaside trip, tomorrow. 90mins motorway, there and back. Not much scope for stop/ start there, either!
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: ColinB on July 29, 2020, 08:22:50 AM
I've just noticed that most of the folks saying they don't like it are CVT drivers. Maybe there's something about the CVT that makes Idle-Stop particularly infuriating ?

Looking at the situation described here:
... An uphill right turn across approaching traffic ...
I assume you're not describing waiting at traffic lights, just waiting for a gap in the oncoming traffic. In my manual car, I would be poised for a hillstart. That is, I would have the handbrake on (but left hand on it ready to release quickly), car in gear, clutch depressed, right foot hovering on the gas pedal. Idle-Stop would not stop the engine in that situation unless I took the car out of gear and lifted the clutch, so there would be no unnecessary pause when moving off. I've never driven a CVT, so I don't know how a CVT driver would be waiting in this situation: what is the combination of controls that stops the engine?

I don't quite understand this:
... Unknown to me, the engine was stopped, ...
It's easy to miss hearing or feeling the engine stopping, but there are at least two indications on the instrument panel (the tacho would have dropped to zero and the right-hand display would have lit up with a big "A" symbol).
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on July 29, 2020, 08:41:10 AM
Problem with auto stop is that in towns where it is probably most applicable for air quality the car may not do enough miles to keep battery charged and operate properly,  and like Dayjo who lives in a rural area ( like I do ) auto stop no real benefit as most stops tend to be short and infrequent.  A lot of car automation is like marmite,  you either love it or hate it,  everyone in our family who has auto stop start disables it and when I have been in cars as a passenger it annoys me that engine stops as soon as car does,  no run-on delay to account for just a quick stop.  I have stood on carparks and been amused when cars stopping at carpark junctions have had engine stop ( even though car has just really paused at the junction ) - lets just say a lot of tech is badly implemented and flakey and to many people more of an annoyance than a benefit.  There is no doubt that auto stop was used by car makers to game the emissions by having engine stopped for part of the tests,  and what do car makers care if 10 year old cars have problems caused bu $R5E ( auto restart system engines ).   On my brothers car his auto braking has caused problems on country lanes on tight bends and when going past cars and it has picked up on bushes and applied the brakes - as I said before he has a checklist to turn things off before every journey... he often said he wishes he had kept his previous lower tech cars.  As for auto lights and wipers - if you don't know when to turn lights and wipers on,  or are too preoccupied on you phone etc to notice its raining or gone dark you shouldn't really be in charge of a vehicle.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on July 29, 2020, 08:44:51 AM
It's easy to miss hearing or feeling the engine stopping, but there are at least two indications on the instrument panel (the tacho would have dropped to zero and the right-hand display would have lit up with a big "A" symbol).

When you are looking out for traffic at junctions there is no reason to be looking at dash to check if engine has stopped 'this time' or not.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Kenneve on July 29, 2020, 09:46:09 AM
I suppose whether you like auto stop or not, is really a mental issue. Like most oldies, I come from a generation, where if your engine stopped, whilst driving, you would immediately think there was something wrong and be prepared to get your spanners out !!! ;D ;D

The problem with auto stop and the CVT, is the necessity to keep you foot on the brake to keep it stopped.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Ralph on July 29, 2020, 10:01:08 AM
An uphill right turn across approaching traffic. Unknown to me, the engine was stopped, adding another 1/2 second to the already slow acceleration time!
This is the single biggest reason I now own a Yaris hybrid now it doesnít matter if  the engine is running or not. The auto stop function and lack of acceleration on the cvt irritated me enough to swap the car. Iíve popped back up on this forum as Iím very interested in the new Jazz the Yaris is not as versatile as the Honda. Might one day find the perfect car ?
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: equaliser on July 29, 2020, 11:24:05 AM
I've just noticed that most of the folks saying they don't like it are CVT drivers. Maybe there's something about the CVT that makes Idle-Stop particularly infuriating ?

The CVT idle-stop works by pressing the brake pedal firmly when you come to a stop. It can be quite a challenge to find the correct pedal pressure so as to not activate it but the big problem is you have to maintain brake pedal pressure (with brake lights glaring the driver behind) or the engine restarts. Also, if you drive into a parking space and the idle-stop kicks in, as soon as you move the gear selector to put it into Park (P) etc the engine restarts and you have to turn it off again manually - so wasteful and very annoying. In the manuals it's not a deal breaker to me and can be very useful but in the CVT it's not been properly thought out hence the differing opinions offered on this topic.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: ColinS on July 29, 2020, 12:16:39 PM
Not much consolation for you Jazz owners but they fixed this on the 2019 face lift for the HR-V CVT. 

Make sure that you set the brake hold on when you start the engine (I personally wish that this was the default), when you come to a stop with light pressure on the brake (my normal mode of driving), the brake hold activates and you can take you foot off the brake.  If you come to a halt with firm pressure on the brake pedal, the engine cuts out and you can then take you foot of the pedal and it stays off.

Put slight pressure on the accelerator and the engine starts (i.e. when the traffic lights start to change).  Further pressure on the accelerator releases the brake. 

Perfect solution in my view.  Well with the exception that your brake lights are on all the time that you are stopped.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John A on July 29, 2020, 01:14:28 PM
Personally I find the auto-stop with the CVT less irritating than on the manual. Granted I'm aware I might be annoying someone behind me with the brake lights being lit while I'm stopped, but in the time it takes me to take my foot off the brake and onto the accelerator, then engine has started and we're ready to go. Unlike the manual where you had to be putting the car into gear and also taking off the handbrake.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Jocko on July 29, 2020, 02:37:31 PM
Unlike the manual where you had to be putting the car into gear and also taking off the handbrake.
I sit with the car in gear, foot on the clutch and handbrake on with button pressed. As soon as light turns Red and Amber clutch comes up, handbrake off and the moment the light turns Green off I go.
Today I was behind a new Vauxhall. Driver waited on the Green before taking his foot from the footbrake. By the time the car started and he moved off I wondered if I would get over the line before the light went back to Amber.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: equaliser on July 29, 2020, 03:52:31 PM
Not much consolation for you Jazz owners but they fixed this on the 2019 face lift for the HR-V CVT. 

Make sure that you set the brake hold on when you start the engine (I personally wish that this was the default), when you come to a stop with light pressure on the brake (my normal mode of driving), the brake hold activates and you can take you foot off the brake.  If you come to a halt with firm pressure on the brake pedal, the engine cuts out and you can then take you foot of the pedal and it stays off.

Put slight pressure on the accelerator and the engine starts (i.e. when the traffic lights start to change).  Further pressure on the accelerator releases the brake. 

Perfect solution in my view.  Well with the exception that your brake lights are on all the time that you are stopped.
Sounds perfect, wish it was like that from the start. Does the new MK4 Jazz/Crosstar have this function?
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Downsizer on July 29, 2020, 05:36:27 PM
I sit with the car in gear, foot on the clutch and handbrake on with button pressed. As soon as light turns Red and Amber clutch comes up, handbrake off and the moment the light turns Green off I go.
There is no CVT equivalent for preparing for a quick start into a traffic gap, as you have to keep your foot on the brake until the gap is there, and then move your foot to the accelerator which takes time.  This delay applies regardless of the auto-stop system, so little time is gained by turning it off. Overall, I have found that the CVT encourages a more relaxed driving style.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: equaliser on July 29, 2020, 06:13:08 PM
Overall, I have found that the CVT encourages a more relaxed driving style.
I couldn't agree more, and is the reason I choose the CVT, it's so relaxing to drive, smooth acceleration but power is there if you really need it.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Dayjo on July 29, 2020, 10:22:19 PM
Just to add another aspect.....
 Several auto drivers, mention moving their foot from brake, to accelerator.... I use a foot on each pedal. Much safer.

Today's seaside trip....
 M1, M18, M180 to Cleethorpes, and back. Constant cruise control 70mph, wherever possible. 155 miles. At 56.1mpg (Fibometer reading). I'm a bit pleased with that.

The stop/ start, stuttered twice, in Cleethorpes carpark.....
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on July 29, 2020, 10:27:32 PM
When I drove autos in countries where manual boxes were unusual the rule was keep left foot out of the way, you never want to accelerate and brake at same time and left foot is hopeless for braking...
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Jocko on July 29, 2020, 10:49:04 PM
I drove automatics for 25 years, including coaches and double-deckers, and you never brake with your left foot. One trainee on the buses, who had never driven an automatic before, tried to brake with his left foot, and the instructor near had apoplexy. Told him if he did that on his test, he would be failed immediately.
New automatic drivers are told to tuck their left foot under the seat!
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Dayjo on July 29, 2020, 10:58:14 PM
I drove automatics for 25 years, including coaches and double-deckers, and you never brake with your left foot. One trainee on the buses, who had never driven an automatic before, tried to brake with his left foot, and the instructor near had apoplexy. Told him if he did that on his test, he would be failed immediately.
New automatic drivers are told to tuck their left foot under the seat!

I did that. When I was a new automatic driver.

Many old drivers go tearing around car parks. Pressing the wrong pedal.

Honest John, and others, recommend two feet. Works very well for me.......
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on July 30, 2020, 09:07:08 AM
Many old drivers go tearing around car parks. Pressing the wrong pedal.

Strange comment.

Brake pedal on an auto is massive compared to loud pedal.  The accelerator and brake are mutually exclusive on an auto absolutely no need to press both at the same time ( why would you ever need to accelerate with the brakes applied ? ),  in many years of driving autos / CVT ( my wife had a CVT ) I never used my left foot for anything except getting in and out of the vehicle....

Even motorbikes have rear brake on RH side and gear change on left probably because it was found that left hand foot is not at all sensitive enough to use for braking. 

If you ever have to drive a manual car again you may find yourself in trouble if you try to brake with left foot...
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: sparky Paul on July 30, 2020, 09:28:41 AM
Even motorbikes have rear brake on RH side and gear change on left probably because it was found that left hand foot is not at all sensitive enough to use for braking.

...especially when it's used to shoving the clutch pedal in.

Going for the clutch and hitting the oversized brake pedal is my favourite when driving an auto again. Good job for seatbelts, or I would have been through the windscreen several times.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Kenneve on July 30, 2020, 09:50:37 AM
I remember a mate of mine saying, when his old Dad changed from manual to auto, he had to put a loop of rope around the drivers seat which restrained his left foot from hitting the brake.
For most people your left foot is simply not 'programmed' to apply the brake and in those days we didn't have seat belts!
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: equaliser on July 30, 2020, 09:59:39 AM
I know Honest John is a big advocate of left foot braking but it's something I don't agree with him on, especially if like me you are swapping between manual and automatics on a regular basis.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Jocko on July 30, 2020, 10:06:39 AM
All my automatics had standard sized brake pedals, but I once drove an automatic with a large brake pedal (might have been a Ford Corsair) and an unexpected emergency stop (do you get expected ones?) saw me hit the brake and "clutch" simultaneously and boy did that car stop. Two feet on the brake pedal certainly has an effect.

Another thing about the automatics I had is that they all had the brake pedal to the right of the steering column obviously the same as the manual version. So why would I want to move my left foot from the left side of the car to brake?
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: John A on July 30, 2020, 10:25:58 AM
Glad it's not just me who is having trouble working out how it's safer to use the left foot for braking.  :)
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Downsizer on July 30, 2020, 02:21:53 PM
Glad it's not just me who is having trouble working out how it's safer to use the left foot for braking.  :)
Yes, I don't fancy trying to hold a CVT on the brake and accelerator at the entry to a busy roundabout.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Dayjo on July 30, 2020, 10:08:38 PM
Hmmm.... Seems I'm in a distinct minority here.

Can't quite understand some of the comments from drivers, who have not given it a try. Practised the art....
 Rally drivers seem to do ok, with left foot braking!

My old MD, popped into his office, one Saturday afternoon, to catch up on some paperwork. Feeling unwell, he decided he better go home.
 As he engaged reverse, in his Mercedes SLK, he had a heart attack.
The car shot backwards through two wire mesh fences. Across the adjoining firm's car park. And, was only stopped, when it hit an earth bank which raised the car's rear end off the floor, allowing the wheels to spin free.
 During recovery, he maintained at all time he was pressing the brake. The car must be faulty. He intended to sue Mercedes.

Mercedes, showed him the telemetry. In his anguish, he had floored the accelerator. This happens regularly, they said.
 He was advised to drive using both feet, in future......
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Jocko on July 31, 2020, 08:30:01 AM
Rally drivers seem to do ok, with left foot braking!
Racing drivers do it too. However, there is a difference between hard braking in a racing situation and smooth braking on a busy road. I have tried left foot braking and found it impossible to get smooth control at lower speeds.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Dayjo on July 31, 2020, 09:01:50 AM
Rally drivers seem to do ok, with left foot braking!
Racing drivers do it too. However, there is a difference between hard braking in a racing situation and smooth braking on a busy road. I have tried left foot braking and found it impossible to get smooth control at lower speeds.

I guess, many have tried, few have persevered...
 We all produced kangaroo starts, when we encountered our first clutch. But, we had to learn left foot dexterity.

I can stop smoothly, using either foot.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: culzean on July 31, 2020, 09:46:49 AM
Rally drivers seem to do ok, with left foot braking!
Racing drivers do it too. However, there is a difference between hard braking in a racing situation and smooth braking on a busy road. I have tried left foot braking and found it impossible to get smooth control at lower speeds.

I guess, many have tried, few have persevered...
 We all produced kangaroo starts, when we encountered our first clutch. But, we had to learn left foot dexterity.

I can stop smoothly, using either foot.

Well done, now try to drive a manual car... I never used my left foot for anything other than getting in and out of car or working the clutch and could seamlessly swap between auto and manual vehicles on a daily basis ( I often had to drive company vehicles and my wifes CVT as well as my own cars ).

What people do in motorsport has really no relevance on the road.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Kenneve on July 31, 2020, 09:49:58 AM
The question remains, why would you want to use your left foot for braking?
I can well see, in certain situations you would end up, pressing both pedals at once, not a particularly good idea,  ::)
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Jocko on July 31, 2020, 10:11:21 AM
There are many on the internet advocating left-foot braking but thousands more pointing out how dangerous it can be, particularly in an emergency situation, where both pedals can be pressed at once.
Perhaps some of our ADI instructors would like to chime in?
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: sparky Paul on July 31, 2020, 11:34:01 AM
The question remains, why would you want to use your left foot for braking?

Exactly. I understand it on a track when you're sliding about, but on the roads?  ???
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Dayjo on August 01, 2020, 09:17:07 AM
There are many on the internet advocating left-foot braking but thousands more pointing out how dangerous it can be, particularly in an emergency situation, where both pedals can be pressed at once.
Perhaps some of our ADI instructors would like to chime in?

I keep repeating. The whole reason, is NOT to be able to press two pedals at once. Or the wrong pedal, at times of stress......

The car has two pedals..... I have two feet.....

During normal driving. The right foot rests on the accelerator, positioned against the r/h outer wall of the pedal box.

The left foot rests on the footrest, positioned by the l/h edge of the brake pedal. Ready to be moved slightly, onto the brake pedal, when needed.

All perfectly positioned.

I'm tired of this, now..... Can we return to stop/ start?
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Kenneve on August 01, 2020, 11:17:53 AM
How can you possibly hit two pedals at once, using only one foot?
In over 60 years of motoring, my subconscious mind has been programmed to use the left Foot for the clutch, or if havenít got one, then leave it of the footrest, and Iím not about to change now.
I think we must agree to disagree and as you say, move on.
Title: Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
Post by: Muldoon on August 01, 2020, 01:15:12 PM
I think the whole left foot advice is to avoid the car park or driveway accidents where someone presses the accelerator when manoeuvring, the theory being your left foot would be used to control the brake instantly. Whether this can be learned and become second nature is up for debate. I can see the arguments for using it at low speed to aid control but in traffic and at speed it seems unnatural.